Are You Okay Investing $233 Million For Lot J?

[Kerry]

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.  Well, except maybe London.  They would probably take the Jags.

The rest of your post won't get an argument from me.  Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl.  And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do.  They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism.  Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer.  My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism.  There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.

[Steve]

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.  Well, except maybe London.  They would probably take the Jags.

Okay, let's not get carried away here.

[Snaketoz]

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.  Well, except maybe London.  They would probably take the Jags.

The rest of your post won't get an argument from me.  Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl.  And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do.  They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism.  Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer.  My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism.  There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.

I understand.  In the 70s everyone wanted to live in Mandarin.  Now it's too crowded for me.  I love small town living.  Every time I go to a walkable, densely populated place, I can't wait to go home.  When I went to Ireland I loved the small villages and countryside.  I felt nervous in Dublin.  Different strokes.  My idea of walkable is walking along the mossy oak lined streets here.  I don't want a concrete jungle.

[Adam White]

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.

I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.

[Kerry]

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.  Well, except maybe London.  They would probably take the Jags.

The rest of your post won't get an argument from me.  Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl.  And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do.  They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism.  Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer.  My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism.  There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.

I understand.  In the 70s everyone wanted to live in Mandarin.  Now it's too crowded for me.  I love small town living.  Every time I go to a walkable, densely populated place, I can't wait to go home.  When I went to Ireland I loved the small villages and countryside.  I felt nervous in Dublin.  Different strokes.  My idea of walkable is walking along the mossy oak lined streets here.  I don't want a concrete jungle.

Walkable Urbanism isn't just large cities.  Check out Pwllheli, Wales.  Even in colonial America, the farmers all lived around the town square and commuted to their farm.  It was until Jefferson that people actually living on the farm was considered 'normal', and that was because of the Louisiana Purchase opened up farm land fast than cities could be built.

[Kerry]

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.

I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.

Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River.  They don't need the St. Johns.  Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.

Knoxville


Chattanooga


Greenville

[Snaketoz]

Perhaps living on a cruise ship would be preferable to Jax, huh?

[acme54321]

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.

I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.

Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River.  They don't need the St. Johns.  Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.

Knoxville


Chattanooga


Greenville

Come on dude.  It's gotta be tiring.  No one uses the St John's?  Give me a break.  I gaurantee you there are more people on our waterways any given day than all of those cities combined.

[Peter Griffin]

The Riverwalk is a cool walk/run/bike path that covers BOTH SIDES of the river. Plus, Florida life dictates that there's tons of boaters out listening to Redneck Yacht Club, fishin' and drinkin' every weekend in Jax. I see people fishing in Metro Park often, along the riverwalk, darn near Downtown a lot of times.

Maybe you'd like a riverfront park? I hear there's something in the works on the landing site...

Oh wait we hate that idea.

Lot J isn't on the river. That riverfront area is criminally undeveloped, but that's mainly because the soils there are heavily contaminated, as we all know. You can hardly give that land away, it's so contaminated. That said, Lot J seems to be a gateway to riverfront development, especially in conjunction with the removal of the Hart Expressway.

We have Metro Park, but it's not a busy destination. We had the Landing, but it had dwindling numbers ever since the day it opened 32 years ago. We've got awesome places like the Riverside Arts Market and the Riverwalk, which I see people in droves out on every weekend. River & Post has a sweet overlook, we have several small riverfront parks along the river and it's creeks. We call ourselves the River City.

What exactly would qualify as "using the St Johns" anyhow? It's easy to gesture broadly at a lackluster downtown and say "THIS IS BAD THE WHOLE AREA SUCKS" but I think that's a gross oversimplification and a tossing out of the baby with the bathwater that is our quiet DT.

We are the RIVER CITY for goodness sakes, what exactly would "using the St Johns" be to you that it isn't right now?

[thelakelander]

This thread has really gone off the rails. Personally, I like what Chattanooga and Greenville have done with their downtowns over the last 20 years. Knoxville....it's okay but not the role model like the other two.  It's exciting to see what they've done with their central business districts. There are a ton of things Jacksonville can learn from these smaller communities in regards to downtown revitalization but let's not get carried away. Being a metropolitan area of 1.5 million, Jax has a ton of amenities, assets, qualities, cultures, etc. that these places will lack in similar scale simply due to them being much smaller or physical location. Now if having a vibrant CBD that's walkable and alive 24/7 is one's top preference, I don't think any of these places are smart choices to relocate to. There's only a handful of cities in the US that truly offer that type of lifestyle.

[Kerry]

You guys are such homers it is laughable.  Good luck with that.

[thelakelander]

^I'm probably one of the biggest critics of Jax's urban core conditions around. It's lacking big time and those in charge clearly don't know or accept what it takes to activate street life. A lot needs to be done and the way things are going, it will take a generation or two for those things to happen. However, me and you are cut from a different cloth. There's nothing in my soul that would make me want to relocate to a city anywhere that has less than 1 million people, not on the coast and not with a significant minority population. IMO, the more diversity, the better. Been there, done that in an area that's comparable in size to those three cities. For what I'm into, it gets old real fast. Nothing in a smaller community's downtown is going to overcome those prerequisites for me. I also a planner that doesn't agree with Jeff Speck's position on everything and hate new urbanism that's curated and disneyfied (ex. Celebration, Seaside, etc.). Give me a Detroit over those places any day. But that's the beauty of America. We can go to places that cater to our personal prerequisites.

[ProjectMaximus]

So $500mm of the $1 billion spent on the stadium, and $100 miilion of the $250mm entertainment district.

Insane. At least the ones paying for it, got to vote on it.

I did some research on this awhile back and iirc Arlington hit such a home run with the Jerry's World deal (the Cowboys' AT&T Stadium) that they (leaders and residents) confidently backed this plan. They were on pace to pay off the entire AT&T Stadium debt in two more years or so, almost half the time that was projected, and so they rolled that loan into the one for the baseball stadium. Of course, past success doesn't guarantee future results, and the impact from adding the Rangers' Stadium + entertainment district may not be as profound as the original football stadium was. But in any case, just providing some additional color and context regarding the situation in Arlington.

[Adam White]

There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.

I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.

Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River.  They don't need the St. Johns.  Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.

Knoxville


Chattanooga


Greenville

Okay - you named three places. But your original quote was, "There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags." You didn't say "There is nothing these three specific cities want". Yes, there are cities with rivers. And cities near beaches. But Jax has a great river and wonderful beaches. People in all sorts of cities would love that. I can tell you that I miss the beaches - and many where I live would love to have easy access to beaches like the ones in Jax. And the climate too, come to think of it.

Jax has lots of problems and shortcomings, yeah. But it's not all bad news.

[Kerry]

I based my comment on the fact that I have never heard of any city/business leaders coming to Jax to learn anything.  We don't have creative thought leaders that are pioneering anything at the civic level.  If you know of any please share.

No one is coming here to see how to replicate our mass transit system, implement their version of our beaming civic monuments, copy our unique park system, reproduce our creatively funded cultural attractions, implement our innovative parking solutions, mimic our complete street/greenway initiatives, marvel in our urban revitalization success stories, and for sure no one is coming here to study riverfront activation - because we don't have any of those things.

The one thing we do have in ample supply is sprawl and there isn't a City in America that needs assistance with sprawl.