Repealing Deception: The Landing and Public Engagement

[downtownbrown]

yeah yeah yeah.  Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone.  I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it.  The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view.  Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer. 
So go ahead. Vent.

^No worries. Your post literally confirms you don't know much about the history of how and why things have gotten to this point in time. If you did, I do believe you'd reevaluate your opinion. Nevertheless, Brian Hughes doesn't really know either since he's a relatively newcomer to the city. In any event, at the end of the day, I do believe, no matter what side of the fence one falls on, it's hard to want to limit opportunities for great redevelopment in downtown. With that said, if this general belief is applied to the Jacksonville Landing, we need to place our personal biases and opinions aside and open the opportunity for a RFP for qualified parties to redevelop the site.

Perhaps that's full adaptive reuse, maybe it's a mix of old and new or perhaps it's a full blown raze and rebuild. Seriously, what's wrong with letting the market and professionals who know what they're doing become a part of the redevelopment process? Brian Hughes isn't an architect, planner, engineer, developer or long time resident. He should be the last one telling people in Jax, what's iconic to them or if adaptive reuse is structurally or financially feasible or not.

I have a good enough grasp of the history here.  I don't agree that an RFP would change anything.  Investors are always free to make offers.  They don't need to wait for an RFP.  Where are they?  Where have they been for decades?  Why didn't Rummel say, "Hey City, I love this magnificent Icon of Jacksonville. Let me refresh it"?  Why hasn't anyone else?  Because it's a white (orange) elephant, outdated, and unattractive.  This blog is blaming Hughes for the fact that there IS NO MARKET for this property.  I think that's wrong headed, and adaptive reuse drawings won't ever change that.  Money is smart.  Money does not love the Landing.

[Steve]

If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?

[Kerry]

If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?

...and the City shafted the last RFP respondents.  Hell, even JTA pulled the plug on the Bike Share RFP after 4 groups responded.  I have a hard time believing anyone not named Khan would ever want to do business with the City, especially when so many other cities are available to do business with.

[thelakelander]

I have a good enough grasp of the history here.  I don't agree that an RFP would change anything.

Unless, you're fine with the space being a grass lawn and dead at night and on weekends, you'll need to RFP for whatever you ultimately want to do.....even management and programming of an active park since COJ isn't going to be effective at doing it.  So let's remove the RFP won't change anything position from the conversation. We have to eventually do it anyway.

Investors are always free to make offers.  They don't need to wait for an RFP.  Where are they?  Where have they been for decades?

If you're familiar with the site's history, you would know that up until Wednesday, the Landing has always been in private ownership. You would also know that Sleiman has proposed redevelopment and expansion of the property (with the assistance of public incentives) since the day he acquired the place in 2003. So there was an investor for 16 straight years that had a proposal on the table for redevelopment. However, for a number of reasons that investor did not have the city's support.....which essentially means....no development. So, these arguments aren't strong ones for demolition without an economic recovery plan going forward.

Why didn't Rummel say, "Hey City, I love this magnificent Icon of Jacksonville. Let me refresh it"?  Why hasn't anyone else?  Because it's a white (orange) elephant, outdated, and unattractive.

Why would anyone expect Rummel to go to the city and say let me refresh a building someone else owns? Rummel needs to worry about getting his own project off the ground than worrying about the property of another developer that has more experience in the commercial retail development industry.

This blog is blaming Hughes for the fact that there IS NO MARKET for this property.

You or Hughes (both of which supported spending $36 million on a Berkman II deal that was as risky as they've ever come, that ultimately blew up despite the public handouts offered) aren't exactly qualified to make that decision. What you bring to the table is an opinion, like the rest of the people on this blog. What Jax needs to do is open the door to the market to decide a few things than letting personal biases and opinions impact overall future development opportunities.

I think that's wrong headed, and adaptive reuse drawings won't ever change that.  Money is smart.  Money does not love the Landing.

That's a false narrative. A prominent developer purchased the place and proposed redevelopment. Local politics killed that from ever taking place. That developer still is taking home $22 million so money did love the Landing. Hell, a lot of smart money lovemaking was made with the Landing at the public's expense.

[MusicMan]

Bravo Ennis!

Another HUGE problem today in Jax (and elsewhere) is publicly elected officials have lost site of the fact they work for us. Not the other way around. I've heard a strong groundswell of support for not destroying The Landing UNTIL there is a plan in place. I work downtown and can tell you it will be a homeless park if it becomes a greenspace.

Or offer it up for sale and do not proceed until a contract and viable plan is in place.  I am not a big fan of RFP but it sure beats destruction with NO PLAN in place.

As I drove past it today, i took a long look at the facade. I was surprised it did not offend me, and one can actually see through the space to the river beyond if not going too fast. This blog has come up with some excellent suggestions for going forward, and the city has come up with NONE.

[tufsu1]

yeah yeah yeah.  Just to depart from the GroupThink on this blog, I can't wait until the hideous eyesore of the Landing is gone.  I love this high dudgeon after decades of no one stepping up to fix it.  The idea of an RFP resulting in a mad rush from the marketplace to preserve this thing is absurd in my view.  Putting lipstick on this pig is not the answer. 
So go ahead. Vent.

How do you like the Berkman II site? Howe about the long-awaited Liberty Street rebuild that is now going to take even longer and cost even more?

[tufsu1]

If you were a developer and looking for your next project, would you have really taken the time to put a proposal together while the COJ and Sleiman were busy publicly throwing poo at each other like two animals at the Zoo?

more importantly why would a developer propose something for a building owned by another developer?

[Bill Hoff]

Would the $22 million + be the most expensive vacant lot in COJ history?

Curious if the city has ever spent more to create literally nothing.

[Downtown Osprey]

And to add to all of this, we are literally driving small businesses AWAY from the core. Seriously, what type of meth is the COJ smoking. My heart breaks for these business owners and employees. They like us want to see downtown succeed and are essentially being driven out with a piss poor "relocation package" by our city. Good job city leaders!!!

[tufsu1]

Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."

[CityLife]

"Self proclaimed pundits on Duval opining on our plan for the Landing either have a strategic play or are lazy twitter tough guys. I think it is the latter given what I've seen last 4 years.Keep fighting the lazy fight & waging war on social media.I'mma keep winning for the people."

Your mayor actually posted this on Twitter.

[thelakelander]

Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."

If these are the types of responses being made, they should probably stay off social media. However, those quotes pretty much confirm they know the community isn't buying this full line and sinker. So that's likely for the cheerleaders out there but it's not an effective way to move forward with whatever they really want to do in downtown. This isn't a political campaign. This is the core of the city we live in. We'll be here long after the current administration leaves town for their political assignment. Hopefully, they can leave successful by being inclusive. While they may be fighting it right now, they need the community's help in making downtown Jax the best that it can be. So, the community should keep it up and do what most of the council have not done in past months. As more and more residents and business community leaders get vocal about doing things right, their elected representatives will begin to speak out. Kudos to CM-Elect Carclucci over the last few weeks and now kudos to CM Becton for his editorial today.

Who's next?

Editorial: We have to Decide What We Want, Not Wait for Others Tell Us What We Need.

Jacksonville, FL (May 2, 2019) (unedited) -- Over the past month or so, I have had the opportunity, one-on-one to discuss in length the issue of our downtown vision with members of the Downtown Investment Authority and others. These conversations have stemmed from years of observation whereby projects have come before the city and failed, and other ideas have surfaced within public view and been filed somewhere to collect dust without a formidable conclusion.

This is where I concede, we as a city have not decisively determined what it is that we want versus waiting on others to tell us what we need. This again, I submit is a recipe for inaction and more likely to result in projects failing to come before us because as a city we have not decided for ourselves what a successful development of our entire property and how it fits into our downtown looks like.

Many big ideas have been presented like an aquarium, a convention center, mixed use visions of restaurants, office space, parks and more that all have somewhat been presented but no definitive decision made. This again, I present does not allow a picture to be painted that communicates to others, come build it.

As many of you know, District 11 has been a suburban growth area for many years. In addition to constantly planning new development, we have been working on how to redevelop older areas like Baymeadows with ideas of what it is we want, not what others again feel we need. In 2012, after some community input a Community Vision Plan was created and adopted by City Council.

It is this planning tool that we are using today to move development forward. As a representative of the area, I constantly have discussions and work with stakeholders to create that vision where we look for puzzle pieces to be filled which meet the needs of the community. This is what I contend will have the highest degree of success as it is those stakeholders who will be ultimately making it successful.

Also, recently I have been involved with what is by far the most decisive picture of a plan for development involving the JTB-I295 Southeast Quadrant with the Skinner family's 1,063-acre legacy that I have ever seen. This formed-base code plan was initiated by a big investment of the Skinners with collaboration of a Nashville, TN firm, Town Planning & Urban Design, who constructed what I would offer, is a template for what I am trying to convey. This plan, once completed and approved by Council, will tell land buyers what it is that they must do, not what they feel needs to be done.

It was recently announced that one of my future colleagues on City Council feels that a community charrette needs to be implemented for the now available city property of The Landing. I agree with that idea, except that the charrette and discussion should include the entire North Bank and more, not just one piece. If you are not looking at the big picture, then how do you expect to complete the puzzle without including all the pieces?

I submit that to fully have a successful downtown that we should ourselves develop that vision and not wait for others to plan it for us.

By Councilman Danny Becton, District 11

http://www.dannybecton.org/editorial-we-have-to-decide-what-we-want

[vicupstate]

This isn't a political campaign.

It is for them. Always has been. The current regime is using JAX governemnt as the minor leagues for bigger things later. This is why you don't elect political operatives for government office.

The best thing JAX could do long term is to amend the charter (by citizen petition obviously) to make electiosn non-partisan. That would get rid of some of this.   

[thelakelander]

Ouch!

Nate Monroe: Politics, not public input, is to blame for Landing stagnation

COMMENTARY | Mayor Lenny Curry has fashioned himself a different kind of Jacksonville chief executive, building over the past few years a creative — albeit flimsy — origin myth about what came before him and how he has since delivered the city from mediocrity.

Curry has indirectly criticized his predecessors — several of whom he sought endorsements from during his re-election, with tepid success — for relying too much on public input, for desiring consensus, for talking issues to death and in the process ultimately doing nothing. That kind of navel gazing, Curry has said publicly time and again, is responsible for so much stagnation. Heck, it's why the Jacksonville Landing has fallen into disrepair.

Ah yes, the Jacksonville Landing, downtown's notorious underachiever and divisive redevelopment puzzle. Taken at face value, Curry's argument about the defunct waterfront mall is appealing. It has indeed languished for years, and now Curry, after spending an enormous sum — $18 million — is on the brink of tearing it down.

The critics — those ninnies who now complain that it's not wise to tear a structure down without a plan to replace it — they would just have us talk the issue into oblivion. But not Curry, Man of Action. The Decider. Savior Curry. Reform Curry. The Quarterback.

This is nonsense, a dangerous myth that would grant a secretive mayor already inclined to bypass public input permission to continue doing it.

Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190503/nate-monroe-politics-not-public-input-is-to-blame-for-landing-stagnation

[Tacachale]

"Self proclaimed pundits on Duval opining on our plan for the Landing either have a strategic play or are lazy twitter tough guys. I think it is the latter given what I've seen last 4 years.Keep fighting the lazy fight & waging war on social media.I'mma keep winning for the people."

Your mayor actually posted this on Twitter.

Clearly COJ leadership doesn't care. Heck the Mayor called folks daring to suggest a different path for the Landing online "lazy Twitter tough guys."

If these are the types of responses being made, they should probably stay off social media. However, those quotes pretty much confirm they know the community isn't buying this full line and sinker. So that's likely for the cheerleaders out there but it's not an effective way to move forward with whatever they really want to do in downtown. This isn't a political campaign. This is the core of the city we live in. We'll be here long after the current administration leaves town for their political assignment. Hopefully, they can leave successful by being inclusive. While they may be fighting it right now, they need the community's help in making downtown Jax the best that it can be. So, the community should keep it up and do what most of the council have not done in past months. As more and more residents and business community leaders get vocal about doing things right, their elected representatives will begin to speak out. Kudos to CM-Elect Carclucci over the last few weeks and now kudos to CM Becton for his editorial today.

Who's next?

This isn't something one says from a position of strength. It's something one says out of weakness and vulnerability.