Curry, Khan, and Hart Bridge

[Jim]

Looking at Google maps, in addition to ramping down to Gator Bowl Blvd/Talleyrand/Bay Street, how about having Hart's MLK Expressway connector interchange with the end of the Matthews Bridge allowing Hart traffic to also access State & Union via the existing infrastructure off the Matthews Bridge.  This would give Hart drivers a second pathway into Downtown.

I've always wondered why that wasn't already a thing.

[thelakelander]

Gator Bowl Boulevard turns into MLK Parkway and has a full blown interchange with the Mathews. If the ramp is demolished, access would be improved without the need to add new ramps at the Mathews Bridge.


Click here to enlarge image: http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg

[jaxlongtimer]

Gator Bowl Boulevard turns into MLK Parkway and has a full blown interchange with the Mathews. If the ramp is demolished, access would be improved without the need to add new ramps at the Mathews Bridge.

Lake, I get it, but I was actually thinking of creating lanes off the existing ramps to/from the Hart Bridge that feed/merge directly into the existing Mathews Bridge interchange.  This would alleviate the need for a new interchange and keep traffic of the Hart Bridge moving at highway speeds into/from the feed ramps of State & Union while not mixing it with grade level traffic on Gator Bowl Blvd.  It looks to me like such ramps could hug the land abutting Gator Bowl Blvd. and feed the interchange with flyovers.  This would insure minimal disturbance to the neighborhood and reduce the need for much additional right of way.

Another option would be to reconfigure Gator Bowl Blvd. and the off ramps for the Hart Bridge in such a way that maybe they are "flipped" to enable a better path for the above suggestion.  Essentially, the Hart Bridge would flow directly into MLK just south of the Mathews interchange allowing Hart drivers to use the existing interchange as it is.  This alternate would take a bit more thought to move the Hart off ramps for Gator Bowl Blvd. but would be a "creative" variation to the above suggestion.

Asking drivers to exit the Hart expressway, mix it up for a block or two on Gator Bowl Blvd., a "local" road, and then get back on the Mathew expressway doesn't make much sense to me, especially if there is a decent amount of traffic in the area during events and/or rush hour.


Click here to enlarge image: http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg

[thelakelander]

I see what you're saying. Playing devil's advocate the issue that I see from a transportation planning perspective is that the drivers have been mixing it up for 50 years already by using the existing ramps at Duval, University Boulevard and Cesery Road to make that particular movement. Also, given the proximity of the existing interchange at the Mathews, Gator Bowl Blvd and MLK, that whole area would have to be rebuilt. Making a single flyover there would pretty much double the entire Hart Bridge removal budget to accommodate a traffic pattern that may not be justifiable for the expense. Last, replacing the aging Mathews already has a billion dollar price tag because it requires retrofitting interchanges on either end as well.  Everyone has been avoiding that one for years now but at some point we'll have to replace it. Given the dynamics of the project, it would seem best to not attach design elements within its limits to the Hart Bridge viaduct demolition unless there's sufficient funding available.

[jaxjags]

One the same type subject, I have always wondered why the Hart Expressway was not continued south to I-95. If so, this would create a second limited access route across the river without using the Fuller Warren. It would increase use of the under utilized Hart and create a true inner loop around DT. I grew up in Columbus Ohio which has this sort of inner loop around DT.

[thelakelander]

The Hart Bridge Expressway was originally intended to go east towards the beach. Public opposition stopped that from happening, which is why it terminates at Beach Boulevard. Decades later, JTB accomplished what the Hart Bridge Expressway did not. At one point, there were proposals to continue the Hart Bridge Expressway viaduct west to connect with I-95 near the Prime Osborn. At that point in time, it would have separated the Northbank core from the entire riverfront. Today, many cities are looking to do away with Inner Loop Expressways. Rochester, NY is one of the latest ones. They're converting the limited access facility into a ground level boulevard, opening acres of land once dedicated to ramps and pavement, to linear parks and infill development:

http://www.cityofrochester.gov/InnerLoopEast/

[fieldafm]

I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come.  Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with?  This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats.  That money could be better spent on truly public needs.

The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.





As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.

[KenFSU]

Does anyone know what the environmental condition of the land under the ramps is?

Is it reasonable to think that it may prove as contaminated as the rest of the riverfront property in that area?

[Tacachale]

Does anyone know what the environmental condition of the land under the ramps is?

Is it reasonable to think that it may prove as contaminated as the rest of the riverfront property in that area?

Yes.

[jaxrox]

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The possible industrial contamination of the land, which is never cheap to clean up.. my unpopular opinion is that if the environmental testing proves it to be so, Khan should put some of his millions toward the entire project which will include the detoxification of the land. Not just getting the land dirt-cheap after the hardest work is done and paying to have buildings built. We the common taxpayers should not be footing the entire bill for this project for generations to come. Another reason I'm a wee bit skeptical about the sudden public safety concerns. Like I said, feels political, like Curry and Kahn may have this kinda quid pro quo thing where the rest of us (who can't afford it) pay disproportionately le$$ than those who can, y'know?
Just food for thought

[Dapperdan]

I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come.  Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with?  This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats.  That money could be better spent on truly public needs.

The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.





As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.

No offense, but The Daily record is sugar coating it a bit. The city in the 50s and 60s was desperately trying to keep white, affluent drivers away from poor, black neighborhoods. Out of site, out of mind.

[fieldafm]

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The possible industrial contamination of the land, which is never cheap to clean up.. my unpopular opinion is that if the environmental testing proves it to be so, Khan should put some of his millions toward the entire project which will include the detoxification of the land. Not just getting the land dirt-cheap after the hardest work is done and paying to have buildings built. We the common taxpayers should not be footing the entire bill for this project for generations to come. Another reason I'm a wee bit skeptical about the sudden public safety concerns. Like I said, feels political, like Curry and Kahn may have this kinda quid pro quo thing where the rest of us (who can't afford it) pay disproportionately le$$ than those who can, y'know?
Just food for thought

Environmental remediation is not impossible on either the Shipyards nor Metro Park sites. In the end, the City will be responsible for environmental remediation as the City owns the property. I would expect the City's cleanup costs to be probably in the $40-50 million dollar range and Right Of Way and public access costs in the $150-170 million dollar range, with the State probably paying another $100 million.

[fieldafm]

I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come.  Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with?  This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats.  That money could be better spent on truly public needs.

The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.





As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.

No offense, but The Daily record is sugar coating it a bit. The city in the 50s and 60s was desperately trying to keep white, affluent drivers away from poor, black neighborhoods. Out of site, out of mind.

While road construction through historically poor and minority neighborhoods unequivocally decimated the urban core, and the construction of the Haines Street Expressway was one such neighborhood-destroying project... a look at aerials of the riverfront from basically the turn of the century through the construction of the Hart Bridge shows that the specific ramps which are currently being considered for a tear down served a very specific and useful purpose: bypassing historic, heavy industrial uses along the riverfront.

[thelakelander]

Yeah. Those ramps never bypassed a residential area or neigborhood route of any color. That stretch was always industry and prior to that, it was marsh.

[Dapperdan]

There was and still is a poor neighborhood surrounding the stadium area.  Fairfield was at one time a dense urban neighborhood. Yes industry took over but there was still a lot of  houses too.