Proposed project too suburban for Riverside/Avondale?

[mtraininjax]

So going back to this development. Regardless of use, how it meets and interacts with St Johns Avenue and Herschel Street can have a positive or negative impact on walkability. Brooklyn is a great example of this. Lots of recent new development but not exactly ideal at the pedestrian scale. It was some good design, mixed up with some bad design. Overall, you end up with a district that is not totally cohesive at the pedestrian scale.

Lake - after looking at the walkability scores, I understand what you are saying, but this one development is not going to impact the entire district when the entire district has a plan in place, with sidewalks, working on bike paths, working on a plan for exactly what you discus "interaction with st. johns and herschel, even though the entrance will be on st. johns.

The "walkability" score today is 75 at the Commander apartments as compared to 54 for 220 Riverside. Yes, the infrastructure is there for 220 Riverside, but there is also a 6-lane highway on 2 sides of it. You will never get that in front of the Commander.  Will not ever see a 4-lane either. The real issue for the 220 score is that they are so far away from a park. The closest one would probably be Riverside Park, but that is a good 6-8 blocks away and not the easiest walk across the 4-lane expressway of Park Street.

The young couple walking to Chomp Chomp from the Commander would say its walkable, as well as the fact that they can walk their kids to Fishweir or go to the park system around them. I would like to see a crosswalk there in front with lights and signals. Wife selling a house to a young couple on Woodmere too, they love the area and the ability to walk up and down Herschel. Its a big draw, and will be the same for the new development.

[mtraininjax]

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/07/27/the-loop-in-avondale-to-move-owners-want-to-stay.html

The Loop in Avondale to move, owners want to stay in area Jul 27, 2016, 8:33am EDT

Loop Founder and President Mike Schneider said the search for the Avondale location is a top priority for the company.

"We owe it to this community to secure an outstanding location for Avondale," he said. "I cannot express how supportive this community has been for The Loop Pizza Grill since our opening in 1988.''

The Loop welcomes site suggestions from commercial real estate brokers, landlords or developers. If you have information for a possible site, please send it to chartley@thelooppizzagrill.com.

The following are site requirements:

• 2,600 to 3,600 square footage

• Shopping center or zoned business

• Avondale/Ortega/Riverside community

• Patio availability preferred

• Ample parking availability

"We are an Avondale/Ortega tradition, and that tradition will continue," Schneider said. "The loss of our location will be a temporary setback, and we expect to be back stronger than ever in 2017. We welcome our guests to continue to enjoy The Loop until the very last day at that center."

[Steve]

• Avondale/Ortega/Riverside community

• Ample parking availability

Those shouldn't be too hard to both find.....

[thelakelander]

Sounds like Loop is a prime candidate for Roosevelt Square or Murray Hill.....

[JeffreyS]

Losing retail and the boardwalk means this is a disaster. However small changes and it will be a home run.

[thelakelander]

The way you design your site can have a significant influence on the creation of a long term pedestrian scale environment.  Take a look at these two Jacksonville developments. Both have surface parking. However, one is pedestrian friendly and the other is not.



So going back to this development. Regardless of use, how it meets and interacts with St Johns Avenue and Herschel Street can have a positive or negative impact on walkability. Brooklyn is a great example of this. Lots of recent new development but not exactly ideal at the pedestrian scale. It was some good design, mixed up with some bad design. Overall, you end up with a district that is not totally cohesive at the pedestrian scale.

I respectfully say, what you are saying doesn't make any sense at all, at least with this project.  As it stands now right now, there's a huge parking lot  between the sidewalk and the buildings and it's still very walkable.   I mean, what you are saying just doesn't make any sense.  I run past here all the time, and it's very pleasant; I walk to the Loop fairly often (though not so much since Chomp Chomp opened, but that's for another thread).  There's nothing at all "unwalkable" about this area, as it stands or under the proposed plan.  You could walk from Harp's to the Loop, to your house; you could walk from the nbew development to Chomp Chomp, the bank, Publix, etc.  The sidewalks are fine, you aren't in too close of proximity to the road-- there's nothing not walkable about it.

Currently, along St. Johns Avenue, there's a 5' sidewalk with no separation from the curb, travel lanes and little interaction with St. Johns Village.





Short of not having a sidewalk at all, this is about as worse as it can get from a pedestrian design perspective.  From my professional perspective (I work on a lot of context sensitive, complete streets, transportation/land use integration projects across the state), the pedestrian realm along this property's frontage can be enhanced as a part of good site planning design.

Here are a few examples of infill projects that have also improved sidewalk conditions and pedestrian scale interactivity as a part of their construction.


In this Orlando example, the sidewalk was widened and landscaping was added. Parallel parking helps buffer the pedestrian from the moving street traffic. In addition, a few apartment units wrap the parking garage and include direct sidewalk entrances. 


This site in Baltimore's Fells Point is more constrained but a good example of creating a narrow pedestrian zone. Again, parallel parking and landscaping buffer the sidewalk from the street curb and building entrances/porches/patios, etc. interact with the pedestrian/sidewalk zone. This one also includes street lighting that doesn't include dark zones on the sidewalks at night.
   

This infill townhouse project in Detroit is located on a 6-lane highway. Here, as a part of the project, they widened their sidewalk frontage and created small courtyards for the units between the building and sidewalk. Surface parking is located on the site's interior.

^Although these projects don't include retail themselves, some other projects built (or redeveloped) nearby have and now these areas are being to develop into bonefide vibrant walkable districts.

I really feel, like someone else mentioned, people here get too enamored with principle and lose the forest through the trees.  Sure, we should make communities more walkable.  That doesn't make this project unwalkable, or bad for the neighborhood.  I just don't see what the fuss is about.  What would you change? What would make it MORE walkable?

I think people in Jax overlook the importance of good site design. If you want a walkable community (a real one), with every project, you should try to improve your public realm and integration between the public and private space at the human scale. Doing this doesn't have to kill private development or make it more expensive. It's just a different way of thinking and organizing a project in the beginning to incrementally lead to a more cohesive neighborhood environment in the long run.  This is one of the largest differences between Jax's struggles the last 15 years and successes achieved in autocentric cities like Orlando, Houston and Charlotte over the same period of time.

[thelakelander]

Lake - after looking at the walkability scores, I understand what you are saying, but this one development is not going to impact the entire district when the entire district has a plan in place, with sidewalks, working on bike paths, working on a plan for exactly what you discus "interaction with st. johns and herschel, even though the entrance will be on st. johns.

The "walkability" score today is 75 at the Commander apartments as compared to 54 for 220 Riverside. Yes, the infrastructure is there for 220 Riverside, but there is also a 6-lane highway on 2 sides of it. You will never get that in front of the Commander.  Will not ever see a 4-lane either. The real issue for the 220 score is that they are so far away from a park. The closest one would probably be Riverside Park, but that is a good 6-8 blocks away and not the easiest walk across the 4-lane expressway of Park Street.

Don't worry about one project being a one-trick-pony or having the potential to solve all neighborhood issues. Cities and neighborhoods grow and evolve organically and incrementally change over time.  Change happens when you require all of your developments to comply with a certain set of standards intended to allow for a neighborhood to reach over time.  You'll never reach a certain type of environment if all we do is make excuses to keep doing things the same.

The young couple walking to Chomp Chomp from the Commander would say its walkable, as well as the fact that they can walk their kids to Fishweir or go to the park system around them. I would like to see a crosswalk there in front with lights and signals. Wife selling a house to a young couple on Woodmere too, they love the area and the ability to walk up and down Herschel. Its a big draw, and will be the same for the new development.

A crosswalk (or anything that improves pedestrian safety and reduces vehicular/pedestrian conflict points) is an example of a pedestrian/sidewalk feature that should possibly be in discussion. That may require some coordination with FDOT, but it's an example of what I'm talking about.  I'm not saying the development is bad and should not happen.  I'm saying it's an opportunity to improve upon what's there today, at the pedestrian level.  Thus, if taken advantage of, it can improve walkability and pedestrian safety along its street frontage, or it can not. If it does not, that specific opportunity is lost until the site is redeveloped again in another 50 years. The choice is really Jacksonville's and Riverside/Avondale's.

[Know Growth]

I live very nearby,on the Creek,Avondale Rural Fringe.

Have been involved with Overlay,We Love Avondale,periphery Arden LLC,which tamped down earlier St Johns Village proposal for even more units.

And yes,earlier proposal/currently vested did/does include public boardwalk and 'kayak launch'. Never was really clear as to whether the kayak launch was public.

Public creek side walkway was an important negotiating point.

There is emphasis on on-site parking because the property is land-locked so to speak via high traffic roadways...ye ol' assumption parking would simply spill over can not apply. 


Concerns stray well beyond building design and appearance to concerns with additional density. Overlay recognizes neighborhoods are key component.Do we really need this "in-Fill". Perhaps at some point,enough will be enough??

I love the dream,concept,imagine a quality redevelopment,truly to "scale".......idyllic creek scenes...kayakers,paddle boarders,walkway striders.........after all,during Overlay citizen workshop proceedings the highest and best use for the property was deemed to be a public park.(That was way too easy... ) Expansive public space of course would never happen,but is a hint to inclination and maybe even a hint to what some struggle with here pontificating about what might be good for the place.

Alas, the stream of Avondale growth proposals has become a sordid joke,"walkability" a predictable,obtuse punchline.

[Know Growth]

Regards The Loop- possibly moving to Brooks Busey's Saddler Point (former Pier 17) Marina Mile location. Either ground floor or roof top??

[JaxAvondale]

The design and layout could definitely be better.


Overall, I'm fine with adding apartments. My biggest issue is that this area is classified as a commercial character area in the overlay. This would be fine if people didn't fight places like The Roost so much to make it tough for businesses in the area to operate.

[Steve]

^the Roost Site isn't in a Commercial Character Area

[JaxAvondale]

^the Roost Site isn't in a Commercial Character Area

That is my point. We have an area that is designated for commercial by the overlay that will be for residential use. That is perfectly fine. In the Roost's case, it makes sense to me to build on the cleaners' site. Basically, what I'm saying is that the Overlay needs to evolve with the times. 

[ricker]

Losing retail and the boardwalk means this is a disaster. However small changes and it will be a home run.

Respecting the opinion that the highest and best use of this site may be use as a park;
I do have a few questions.

Why would retail be needed in this project?
Nearby commercial vacancies exist.

Will a publicly accessible boardwalk and a kayak launch be included and available to non residents between sunrise and sunset?
Can ammenities like this help the RIversideAvondale trolley assist in boosting the King Street district?

Crosswalks are needed at the proposed new entrance to 4000 St.Johns at the intersection of Oak St.
Currently this intersection does not appear ready to handle the increased flows.

Additionally, can a signalized ped Xing be added to Herschel St between the front of Fishweir #20 and the FoodMart/ old Skinner's Diary/ Flower Market / Goal Post trianlge in the heart of this SR211 junction?

[cindy394]

The way you design your site can have a significant influence on the creation of a long term pedestrian scale environment.  Take a look at these two Jacksonville developments. Both have surface parking. However, one is pedestrian friendly and the other is not.

Parks at the Cathedral


A collection of buildings within a compact area will result in more people interacting with the public sidewalk space.



On the other hand....

Spyglass


A collection of buildings where parking lots sit between the sidewalks and buildings will have an opposite impact at street level.


So going back to this development. Regardless of use, how it meets and interacts with St Johns Avenue and Herschel Street can have a positive or negative impact on walkability. Brooklyn is a great example of this. Lots of recent new development but not exactly ideal at the pedestrian scale. It was some good design, mixed up with some bad design. Overall, you end up with a district that is not totally cohesive at the pedestrian scale.

When I drive by the site in question it feels congested, cars speed and it has never occurred to me to be a place I would want to walk.  It is almost as if Avondale ended, as it is so out of character for the historic community.  It is interesting to bring up 220 Riverside as the few times we have walked there, it feels uncomfortable.  How sites are developed and interact with the sidewalk and roadways, as well as the speed of the traffic, do have a huge impact on how we use those sites, how we feel about them and whether we are drawn to walk there.  Some may walk by or from there- or have it as part of their running route but for most people, they walk where it feels protected. I hope this site is improved in the process of redevelopment and finds a way to express character and become an enhancement to the community instead of the area unto itself it currently is. 

[ChriswUfGator]

So...the half of the neighborhood that isn't complaining that a small'ish diner is too commercial for a boarded up industrial laundry on oak street is instead complaining that this residential project isn't commercial enough?

Well okay then. Glad we cleared that up.