Proposed project too suburban for Riverside/Avondale?

[Metro Jacksonville]

Proposed project too suburban for Riverside/Avondale?



Our friends at TransformJax and Moderncities.com take a look at the latest plans to redevelop St Johns Village along Avondale's Fishweir Creek, as well as an examination of other redevelopments undertaken by the developer Chance Properties.

Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-jul-proposed-project-too-suburban-for-riversideavondale

[Kerry]

I don't even know what to say about this debacle.  I guess I just wish developers were better at their job, or at least cared as much about posterity as they do profit.

[Snufflee]

I don't even know what to say about this debacle.  I guess I just wish developers were better at their job, or at least cared as much about posterity as they do profit.

+1 , This would be a disaster

[Steve]

I don't even know what to say about this debacle.  I guess I just wish developers were better at their job, or at least cared as much about posterity as they do profit.

Agreed. There's so much wrong with this to start. I'm not sure what I dislike about this more - the parking garage or the suburban apartment buildings.

This seriously might be the worst proposed plan for the urban core in a long time. I'd rather them do nothing than this. I actually think the Gate in Brooklyn might be better.

[JBTripper]

Sometimes I think the folks on this board automatically reject any development that includes parking. Nobody is going to live at this location unless they can park two cars there! It's not walkable to any employers or amenities.

In order to support retail, this development would require even more additional parking because it is not walkable for anyone south of the creek or west of Roosevelt.

Like MMR said, it's better than the bombed-out shell that's there now, and could certainly spur further retail development across the street. Not every project has to be a self-contained unit of walkable live/work/play TOD utopia.

[thelakelander]

Sometimes I think the folks on this board automatically reject any development that includes parking. Nobody is going to live at this location unless they can park two cars there! It's not walkable to any employers or amenities.

I personally don't care about about the development having parking. Most projects do...even those in places like Chicago and NYC. I'd have to dig up the zoning regulations for this site but I think the issue people would have is how it meets the street and contributes to a human scaled environment at street level.

It's not walkable to any employers or amenities.

I'd argue that the commercial strip down Herschel, between this site and San Juan Avenue, commercial uses across the street, the nearby school and parks are all amenities within walking distance. In essence, how this site is developed can either vastly improve or permanently damage walkability in this particular mixed-use area of Avondale.

Like MMR said, it's better than the bombed-out shell that's there now, and could certainly spur further retail development across the street. Not every project has to be a self-contained unit of walkable live/work/play TOD utopia.

Sometimes I do wonder why we put ourselves in position where it's 100% one way or the other.....with us settling for the worst. Is there common ground between both sides that achieves the goals of the private sector, while blending with the context and vision of the surrounding community? I think so. Looking at Chance's work in Tallahassee, I'd suggest Chance does as well. For Jax and Avondale, it really boils down to what the neighborhood really wants to be.  If improving walkability is neighborhood priority, I'd say working with the developer for some minor modifications to the site layout may help.  If walkability isn't a real concern, then approve and let these guys break ground as soon as possible.

[lowlyplanner]

It's also worth pointing out that the original proposal included a public boardwalk along the creek and a public kayak launch... 

The new proposal doesn't seem to have any usable public open space.

[JaxAvondale]

The parking garage doesn't bother me. In the long run, a parking garage in the neighborhood could be beneficial. It would be nice to have a trolley stop in that area for outsiders coming into Avondale.

[Steve]

The parking garage doesn't bother me. In the long run, a parking garage in the neighborhood could be beneficial. It would be nice to have a trolley stop in that area for outsiders coming into Avondale.

My problem isn't the Parking Garage Per Se. My problem is this is a suburban layout. This is a great opportunity to make this a walkable corridor, and we're blowing it.

[Kay]

The parking garage doesn't bother me. In the long run, a parking garage in the neighborhood could be beneficial. It would be nice to have a trolley stop in that area for outsiders coming into Avondale.

The garage is private, not open to the public.

[mtraininjax]

It's certainly a lot better than the dump of a strip that's there now.

+1 , the reason the property was so cheap was that it is a dump and the retail along the river needs to be torn down. Its an eyesore leading into Avondale and has not kept up with the times.

I'd argue that the commercial strip down Herschel, between this site and San Juan Avenue, commercial uses across the street, the nearby school and parks are all amenities within walking distance. In essence, how this site is developed can either vastly improve or permanently damage walkability in this particular mixed-use area of Avondale.

How quickly we forget, it is a Trolley stop and can be a stop for other vehicles when it is built out, as the road is wide enough to allow for buses and other transit options. Walking is always good for a human being, as there are crosswalks across St. Johns and sidewalks in place. In fact, there is a nice sidewalk over Herschel as well on both sides of the street.

The fact that there is no retail is not a major issue, there are further retail areas in Avondale and St. Johns Park that could use sprucing up and more attention.

[thelakelander]

^None of your post changes the validity of this statement:

"In essence, how this site is developed can either vastly improve or permanently damage walkability in this particular mixed-use area of Avondale".

[thelakelander]

The way you design your site can have a significant influence on the creation of a long term pedestrian scale environment.  Take a look at these two Jacksonville developments. Both have surface parking. However, one is pedestrian friendly and the other is not.

Parks at the Cathedral


A collection of buildings within a compact area will result in more people interacting with the public sidewalk space.



On the other hand....

Spyglass


A collection of buildings where parking lots sit between the sidewalks and buildings will have an opposite impact at street level.


So going back to this development. Regardless of use, how it meets and interacts with St Johns Avenue and Herschel Street can have a positive or negative impact on walkability. Brooklyn is a great example of this. Lots of recent new development but not exactly ideal at the pedestrian scale. It was some good design, mixed up with some bad design. Overall, you end up with a district that is not totally cohesive at the pedestrian scale.

[thelakelander]

I'm in a meeting but I'll attempt to explain in more detail this afternoon.

[Tacachale]

There are ways to make this project more walkable. A building that meets the street is generally more walkable than one separated by a parking lot. Even if the current use is (comparatively) walkable, there was an opportunity to improve things that the newest proposal doesn't take advantage of.