Could St. Johns County be getting its own version of the St. Johns Town Center?

[thelakelander]

Imagine the St. Johns Town Center spread over 1,600 acres with lakes and trees and nature trails surrounding big box retailers, high-end restaurants and entertainment businesses.

That is long-time developer Frank Gatlin's vision for Durbin Lakes in northern St. Johns County. The development is owned by Jacksonville-based Gate Petroleum Co. and the two have teamed up to build 600,000 square-feet of commercial space for the first phase of a massive development in Northern St. Johns County.

Out of the 1,600 acres, Gatlin said that 1,000 acres will be left as wetlands, trees, lakes and open space.
"It's going to be like having a town center inside a park with lakes, trees and nature paths and sidewalks," he said.

That first phase is estimated to cost $125 million, Gatlin said. The four phases of the development could reach about $500 million, he said.
Durbin Lakes could eventually build 2.4 million square feet of retail space, 2.8 million square feet of office space, 999 multifamily units and a hotel as the St. Johns County government has pledged development rights.

Gatlin said the Durbin Lakes will be the first off ramp after Interstate 9B crosses over Interstate 95.

The 9B project is currently under construction and will extend south from Interstate 295 into St. Johns County ending at Racetrack Road.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/01/28/could-st-johns-county-be-getting-its-own-version.html

[pierre]

"He said the big-box stores that he plans to build first at the development will be a home improvement center, a discount department store and a membership club."

Just what we needed. A shopping center with a Lowe's/Home Depot, a Beall's/Kohl's and a Sam's Club/BJ's.

[thelakelander]

They're basically filling the next hole in the market where many of these chains have not already established locations. SR 9B was created to make formerly inaccessible land (like this piece of property), accessible, thus opening the opportunity for new development.

[Tacachale]

They're basically filling the next hole in the market where many of these chains have not already established locations. SR 9B was created to make formerly inaccessible land (like this piece of property), accessible, thus opening the opportunity for new development.

More development of exactly the same kind of thing you can get anywhere else in the metro and state. It's the Jacksonville way.

[pierre]

They're basically filling the next hole in the market where many of these chains have not already established locations. SR 9B was created to make formerly inaccessible land (like this piece of property), accessible, thus opening the opportunity for new development.

Yeah. Just like 9A and JTB and Branan Field and so on and so on.

It's just the Jacksonville way.

[Know Growth]

Likely a part of State Lands/Water Management District "Twelve Mile Swamp" project, which entailed a number of previously untapped "Creative" aspects........'demanding' on District Staff......transfer of Development Rights.Gate involved,along with Planner & Consult  gal often cycled in to public office or closely related position,Big Blonde Hair/Land Use Atty.( I no longer care,and am glad the image of That Hair remains yet her name does not come to mind. Can anyone here reveal her name? )

The outward expansion continues.
At this point, predictable that Town Center joins Orange Park Mall,Regency Mall,Penney Farms/First Coast Outer Beltway Mall as 'Previous', the Next One truly Always Better.       Sometimes squared, via vast undevelopable acres,and proceedings long underway yet woefully under-reported.   

Oak Leaf to Silver Leaf

[southsider1015]

They're basically filling the next hole in the market where many of these chains have not already established locations. SR 9B was created to make formerly inaccessible land (like this piece of property), accessible, thus opening the opportunity for new development.

What's the source that 9B was created for development?  This seems to be the overall knee jerk, anti-development opinion here on MJ.

What if, as the numbers show, that there was a real need to connect Bartram and North St. Johns to I-95 and I-295? 

The attempt to connect FDOT with private landowners is just not there.  To acquire the land to make these major transportation connections possible, there certainly is coordination that occurs before the eminent domain process is started. 

With 9B beginning at St Johns PKWY, it made sense to add an interchange to get to Racetrack if FDOT saved millions of your taxpayer dollars to acquire the land. 

This isn't just Jacksonville development. This is Florida development, and on a broader scale, American development. 

[thelakelander]

Take a look at the comp plans, DRIs and land use patterns and proposals over the last 30 years. You can pretty much tell what's going to come online and where, years in advance. It's pretty clear we invest in transportation infrastructure for more than just faciliating traffic movement.  This isn't unique to Jax or suburbs, so no need to get immediately defensive. With that said, who's being anti-development here. I, for one, believe that if you're going to spend the type of money we are on some of these highways, that development serving them should be a lot denser than what we're getting, so that the taxpayer is getting indirect ROI in the black.

[southsider1015]

Take a look at the comp plans, DRIs and land use patterns and proposals over the last 30 years. You can pretty much tell what's going to come online and where, years in advance. It's pretty clear we invest in transportation infrastructure for more than just faciliating traffic movement.  This isn't unique to Jax or suburbs, so no need to get immediately defensive. With that said, who's being anti-development here. I, for one, believe that if you're going to spend the type of money we are on some of these highways, that development serving them should be a lot denser than what we're getting, so that the taxpayer is getting indirect ROI in the black.

Denser development just doesn't make financial sense, unfortunately or fortunately, depending who you are and your preferred lifestyle.    If it did, we'd see more of it. 

This forum is VERY anti-devlopment for any development outside the Urban Core.  Sprawl development isn't going anywhere; its here to stay until there isnt a cheaper piece of undeveloped land next door.  We can blame FDOT, the landowners, politicians, etc. all we want.

This forum would be better served if the development community (landowners, home builders, developers, planners, etc.) had a voice here.  The discussions would be more constructive, informative, and balanced.

[thelakelander]

Interesting comments. I disagree with a lot of it. I'm slaying dragons at the moment but I will respond in greater detail once I get back in front of the computer.

[thelakelander]

Denser development just doesn't make financial sense,

Bartram Park - 2,600 acres designed to include 9,700 residential units, 1.3 million square feet of commercial space, 1.7 million square feet of office space and 300 hotel units. New development is still happening at a rapid pace.


Subdivision inside of Nocatee


More single family homes inside of another Nocatee subdivision.

Some other images from Jax suburbia that were taken earlier this morning:









If "denser" development did not make financial sense, the local examples shown above would not exist. This is a bad myth that should be quickly taken out back and put to sleep.

unfortunately or fortunately, depending who you are and your preferred lifestyle.    If it did, we'd see more of it (density).

It seems the market (not just in Jax, but across the US) has changed to a different type of product and design over the last decade or so. A mix of uses, better walkability, complete and context sensitive streets, better alternative mobility options, smaller lot sizes, connected street networks, density, etc. are all parts of today's marketplace in the US. Locally, what has not kept pace is roadway design standards, transit investment, land use and zoning regulations. Thus, you're seeing new local product being developed in an uncoordinated, disconnected, sprawled and unsustainable development pattern.

This forum is VERY anti-devlopment for any development outside the Urban Core.  Sprawl development isn't going anywhere; its here to stay until there isnt a cheaper piece of undeveloped land next door.  We can blame FDOT, the landowners, politicians, etc. all we want.

While you always have your extreme outliers, you being one of them , most tend to want fiscally responsible development and growth for the community.  Fiscally responsible development is good for all areas....the urban core, suburbs and rural sections of the region. Btw, outward growth and sprawl aren't the same.

This forum would be better served if the development community (landowners, home builders, developers, planners, etc.) had a voice here.  The discussions would be more constructive, informative, and balanced.

You'd be amazed at the amount of forum participants and followers from those groups you think aren't present, that actually are . You just have to be willing to leave the cul-de-sac to see the diverse, multi-cultural community that exists outside of the white-picket-fence-perspective.

[tufsu1]

What's the source that 9B was created for development?  This seems to be the overall knee jerk, anti-development opinion here on MJ.

What if, as the numbers show, that there was a real need to connect Bartram and North St. Johns to I-95 and I-295? 

There was and is a need for that.  But it could have been accomplished by adding an interchange at Racetrack Road and I-95.  Yes I know, the rest stop is too close.  Pretty sure that the rest stop could have been relocated or collector/distributor lanes added (like between Blanding and Collins on 295) for far less.

So, why choose the more expensive, more complicated, environmentally-destructive option?  The answer....opening up vacant land to development!

[CCMjax]

Take a look at the comp plans, DRIs and land use patterns and proposals over the last 30 years. You can pretty much tell what's going to come online and where, years in advance. It's pretty clear we invest in transportation infrastructure for more than just faciliating traffic movement.  This isn't unique to Jax or suburbs, so no need to get immediately defensive. With that said, who's being anti-development here. I, for one, believe that if you're going to spend the type of money we are on some of these highways, that development serving them should be a lot denser than what we're getting, so that the taxpayer is getting indirect ROI in the black.

Denser development just doesn't make financial sense, unfortunately or fortunately, depending who you are and your preferred lifestyle.    If it did, we'd see more of it. 

This forum is VERY anti-devlopment for any development outside the Urban Core.  Sprawl development isn't going anywhere; its here to stay until there isnt a cheaper piece of undeveloped land next door.  We can blame FDOT, the landowners, politicians, etc. all we want.

This forum would be better served if the development community (landowners, home builders, developers, planners, etc.) had a voice here.  The discussions would be more constructive, informative, and balanced.

I for one am far from anti-development outside the urban core . . . . but I prefer responsible development.  If it is outside the core, I'd like to see communities developed tightly around a central focal point or square.  It's amazing, we had it right 100 years ago and it is a style that still makes people happy and something people desire, yet we don't see it nearly enough in these suburban developments.  We see impersonations of a real town center, but typically not something that truly functions the way it was originally drawn up.  Nocatee sort of accomplishes more of a real community feel with the denser neighborhoods located around the "Town Center" but I think they really shot and missed with their Town Center layout and design.  It is not really a focal point to go to and enjoy yourself for a long period of time or hang out in a social setting.  It is more of a nice strip shopping center built for convenience and one you want to get in and out of quickly.  So I think developers have good intentions with these new communities, but still can't quite get the basics right, which is to have an intimate community feel.  I don't see this new development being any different, especially being right off the highway extension and with the big boxes they are talking about coming in. 

Land is still relatively cheap right now, thus we continue to see the outward sprawl occur.  We all understand that, it is not rocket science.  But this is not a sustainable model.  It is scary to think about how much land area our metropolitan areas have gobbled up just in the last 50 years.  Think about the next 50 . . . then think about the next 500.  We obviously cannot continue at this rate, but where does it stop?  And when we get to that point, how many billions of dollars will need to be spent fixing the mistakes we are currently making?  The reason our cities continue to spread out is because we don't want to spend the energy fixing what's wrong with our current "inner communities."  Many cities are doing a very nice job fixing what's already there but Jacksonville is not one of them.  As you said, land is cheap.   

[ProjectMaximus]

I'm very pro-development outside the urban core. I wish everyday for $100 Billion of projects to happen all across the city. I also wish for an effective mobility fee 

In all seriousness, I was very excited about Tapestry Park and just disappointed by how small it is. I was very excited by the St Johns Town Center's early mixed-use proposals, but disappointed in how it ultimately came to be. I am currently cautiously optimistic about the Hines mixed-use proposal near the town center. I can only hope that in 50 years the SJTC area starts to do what Midtown Atlanta has...ie, densify and urban infill on suburban designs.

[jaxjags]

CCMjax, with regards to your comment on SJTC, I am very disappointed in the new Promenade lay-out.  Why not similar to a urban design of restaurants and shops on first floor and residences above with garage parking. Although the Short Pump Town Center mall (Richmond) is not a town center at all, across the street is a development done in this style. It looks, feels and works like an urban area.