1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition

[JaxUnicorn]

Saving the house isn't the issue.  Forcing someone to spend a lot of money or donate it to a 'non-profit' is the issue. 

How many folks on this board that are fighting to keep this house from demolition live on Ionia street?

You just don't get it, do you.  Saving the house is EXACTLY the issue.  No one forced this owner to buy this house and no one is forcing them to donate it to a non-profit.  They knew they were buying in an historic district when they purchased the property.  They knew the condition of the house when they bought it.  The downfall is that they purchased this historic property with the intent to demolish.

And what difference does it make whether folks live on Ionia or not?  I live in the Springfield Historic District and this property is a contributing structure to that district.  I and others will fight to save the house.

[CCMjax]

from 2011:  Demolitions in Springfield, the facts:

Joel McEachin put the number out today at 533.  That is the current number of demolitions in the neighborhood since the neighborhood was declared a Nationally Recognized Historic District.  That is also almost 30% of the historic fabric of this neighborhood.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,13154.0.html

this is why we fight for houses

Saving the house isn't the issue.  Forcing someone to spend a lot of money or donate it to a 'non-profit' is the issue. 

How many folks on this board that are fighting to keep this house from demolition live on Ionia street?

Naldo, give it a rest.  Your argument would be more applicable if the house wasn't in an historic district, but the fact is it is in an historic district and the house is salvageable so it is going to be a fight if he tries to demo the whole thing.  Again, the owner should have known this.  It is more profitable in this case, most likely, to tear down and build new, however, if owners were allowed to do that everywhere in Springfield, there would be virtually no historic home stock left and it would lose the historic district distinction if any hole in a wall or roof could warrant demolition.  Kind of like when Soldier Field in Chicago lost its historic landmark status by adding a new addition on top of the historic façade of the stadium.  There was too much new compared to historic to still keep its status.

[NaldoAveKnight]

Good gosh, drove by today, can't believe the monster house the guy is building on the double lot on 7th. It's huge. Looks like he is one of the guys from the old City Kidz Ice Cream. He must have some dough to be building that house. Show up on the job site and convince him to renovate the thing. Won't help anything to knock it down with the 2 ugly ducklings on either side of it anyway.

Speaking of ice cream, I'll take everyone that posted on this thread out to the Dreamette if the house gets restored.

I want the house to be restored since I believe in urban renewal.  I'm actively restoring a house across the river from Springfield.  It's the strong arm tactics of the Springfield community that's shady at best, outright corrupt at worst.  Does it matter if the landowner is rich?  Does the end justify the means?  The shadow cast from this event will make folks think twice before taking on a Springfield project. 

[mbwright]

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

[sheclown]

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

this is the truth.  Ive never understood what compels people to move to a historic district and then want to start demolishing historic structures. Its like going to hawaii and demanding the right to pave the entire thing over with asphalt.

amen.

[iloveionia]

I bought my first house in 2007.
On Ionia.
I restored/renovated a humble bungalow after it sat gutted and vacant for 10+ years.
Compared to the rest of the crimes reported in Historic Spfld, Ionia is quiet and safe.
Many on Ionia have lived in their homes for 30+ years.
Some folks on Ionia rely on public assistance/disability/SSI to get by. (And honestly, no one gets by on that.)
Others get a retirement income, others work. I do not see thug punks or drug sales on Ionia.
There is no wealth on Ionia. But like much of Spfld there is a community of next door neighbors who look out for each other.
Every house (except one) I had a part of investing in after my first, touches Ionia in some way, if not on it.
One can't judge a neighborhood or a street until you've spent significant sleeping time there.
If I had a bottomless bank account I would scoop up all of the vacant homes and restore.
Many of us would.
But instead, myself and several others in Spfld, move as quick as we can to save as many as we personally can.
While fending off others who disregard our historic homes and buy with the sole intent to demo.
Wrong neighborhood.
Wrong street. (Well they'd all be wrong, but I have an affinity for this particular one.)
I love Ionia.

[JaxUnicorn]

I bought my first house in 2007.
On Ionia.
I restored/renovated a humble bungalow after it sat gutted and vacant for 10+ years.
Compared to the rest of the crimes reported in Historic Spfld, Ionia is quiet and safe.
Many on Ionia have lived in their homes for 30+ years.
Some folks on Ionia rely on public assistance/disability/SSI to get by. (And honestly, no one gets by on that.)
Others get a retirement income, others work. I do not see thug punks or drug sales on Ionia.
There is no wealth on Ionia. But like much of Spfld there is a community of next door neighbors who look out for each other.
Every house (except one) I had a part of investing in after my first, touches Ionia in some way, if not on it.
One can't judge a neighborhood or a street until you've spent significant sleeping time there.
If I had a bottomless bank account I would scoop up all of the vacant homes and restore.
Many of us would.
But instead, myself and several others in Spfld, move as quick as we can to save as many as we personally can.
While fending off others who disregard our historic homes and buy with the sole intent to demo.
Wrong neighborhood.
Wrong street. (Well they'd all be wrong, but I have an affinity for this particular one.)
I love Ionia.

^^^^  YES!!!!! 

[AngryChicken]

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:

1) Not everything built 100 years ago is a priceless work of art. Some of these houses sucked 100 years ago and they suck even more now.

2) That if you replace 96% of a house it's not longer a historic house. It's a new house built in the shape and location where a historic house once stood.

3) A lot of the best houses in Springfield have already been restored and a lot of what is left will cost far far more than can ever been economically recovered.  No bank will lend on it.  No reasonable person will ever invest in it.  The longer is sits open the the elements in humid Florida the bigger the bill to bring it back will be.

And on a side note is Ionia street even considered part of the historic district? It's such a bombed out hell hole of a street.

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

this is the truth.  Ive never understood what compels people to move to a historic district and then want to start demolishing historic structures. Its like going to hawaii and demanding the right to pave the entire thing over with asphalt.

[AngryChicken]

You've never been able to effectively argue any of my points because you aren't bright enough. And that gets under your skin and I love it.

congratulations, you've displaced NRW's last remaining spot on my top ten list.

Angry Chicken weighs in at number four

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:

1) Not everything built 100 years ago is a priceless work of art. Some of these houses sucked 100 years ago and they suck even more now.

2) That if you replace 96% of a house it's not longer a historic house. It's a new house built in the shape and location where a historic house once stood.

3) A lot of the best houses in Springfield have already been restored and a lot of what is left will cost far far more than can ever been economically recovered.  No bank will lend on it.  No reasonable person will ever invest in it.  The longer is sits open the the elements in humid Florida the bigger the bill to bring it back will be.

And on a side note is Ionia street even considered part of the historic district? It's such a bombed out hell hole of a street.

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

this is the truth.  Ive never understood what compels people to move to a historic district and then want to start demolishing historic structures. Its like going to hawaii and demanding the right to pave the entire thing over with asphalt.

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:

1) Not everything built 100 years ago is a priceless work of art. Some of these houses sucked 100 years ago and they suck even more now.

2) That if you replace 96% of a house it's not longer a historic house. It's a new house built in the shape and location where a historic house once stood.

3) A lot of the best houses in Springfield have already been restored and a lot of what is left will cost far far more than can ever been economically recovered.  No bank will lend on it.  No reasonable person will ever invest in it.  The longer is sits open the the elements in humid Florida the bigger the bill to bring it back will be.

And on a side note is Ionia street even considered part of the historic district? It's such a bombed out hell hole of a street.

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

this is the truth.  Ive never understood what compels people to move to a historic district and then want to start demolishing historic structures. Its like going to hawaii and demanding the right to pave the entire thing over with asphalt.

literally one of the dumbest posts in a long time.  You even moved three separate posts by one of our long term posters down a notch on the list.

[JaxUnicorn]

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:

1) Not everything built 100 years ago is a priceless work of art. Some of these houses sucked 100 years ago and they suck even more now.

You are right; not everything built 100 years ago is a priceless work of art.  However, when the Springfield Historic District was created, there were structures that were designated historic.  And that means this house, however ugly you deem it to be, deserves to be saved and restored.

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:
2) That if you replace 96% of a house it's not longer a historic house. It's a new house built in the shape and location where a historic house once stood.

Not true.  The bones of the structure are still there.  The original footprint is still there.  A 100 year old 2x4 is 768 cubic inches, or 64 cubic feet; today's "nominal" 2x4 is only 504 cubic inches, or 42 cubic feet.  I'll take the old growth true 2x4 construction any day over today's 2x4s.

Probably because some of us are reasonable and understand a few of things:
3) A lot of the best houses in Springfield have already been restored and a lot of what is left will cost far far more than can ever been economically recovered.  No bank will lend on it.  No reasonable person will ever invest in it.  The longer is sits open the the elements in humid Florida the bigger the bill to bring it back will be.

Thank goodness a lot of the historic homes in Springfield have been restored!!  I am very thankful for the folks who have poured their blood, sweat and tears into this old gals.  And I look forward to the remaining housing stock being given the same level of attention. 

What's left will cost far more than can ever be economically recovered?  I disagree.  Sometimes it's not only about recouping an investment.  Sometimes it's about the house itself and the greater good of the neighborhood. 

Are you an underwriter for a bank?  If not, then how can you say with certainty that a bank will not lend on these houses?  In case you don't know, traditional banks are not the only source of funding for restoring these grand old ladies. 

No reasonable person will ever invest in it?  Again, I disagree.  In fact, at the August HPC meeting a General Contractor offered to purchase the home. 

The longer it sits open to the the elements in humid Florida the bigger the bill to bring it back will be.  Yes, you are correct here.  And within this statement you also acknowledge the house CAN be restored!  Even though the addition has lost a large section of the roof, it could still be restored if the owner wanted to do that.  And if not, that addition could be removed.  The original back of the house is still there (including siding) which would make mothballing much easier.  The roof of the original section of the house is intact.  Removing all the crap that is inside the home would go a long way in making it easier to mothball or completely restore. 

And on a side note is Ionia street even considered part of the historic district? It's such a bombed out hell hole of a street.

Below is a link to the official City of Jacksonville Springfield Historic District boundaries.  As you will see, Ionia certainly is a part of the Historic District.  "Ionia is a bombed out hell hole of a street"?  Give me a break!  It will look like a bomb hit it if we continue to allow destruction by demolition.
http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/community-planning-division/default/springfield-district-map.aspx

Naldo, give it a rest.  It would be more productive to go poke some gators or lions or hungry bears.  Historic districts have a purpose that you obviously don't or can't understand. 
Besides, it's not strong arm tactics, just enforcing the existing rules.

this is the truth.  Ive never understood what compels people to move to a historic district and then want to start demolishing historic structures. Its like going to hawaii and demanding the right to pave the entire thing over with asphalt.

Thanks for quoting the above from mbwright and stevendare.  And it applies to your "points" as well.  Why on earth would someone purchase a home in a nationally recognized historic district for the sole purpose of demolishing it?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

In a letter to the Historic Planning department stated he purchased this historic structure with the "expectation that it would be torn down."  He goes on to say that this house is only 20 feet from the home he is building which is not true - the house itself is 69' long and sits on a 125' deep lot.  Assuming a 10' setback up front, that's 46' from the property's own lot line, then add the width of the alley that separates this structure from the owner's new build.  He also says the house "is in clear and eminent danger of collapsing at any moment" which is also not true. 

SAVE THE HOUSES!!

[sheclown]

This item is up in front of the Historic Preservation Commission this Wednesday (after being deferred last month). 

Please sign the petition and help us RESPECT the contributing structure in a Nationally Recognized Historic District. 

SAVE THE HOUSES.

https://www.change.org/p/jacksonville-historic-preservation-commission-this-place-matters-stop-the-demolition-of-1634-ionia-street?source_location=petitions_share_skip

The letter says it all: bought with the intent to demolish. The owner of this historic home on Ionia has other options as opposed to requesting a demolition. The home can be donated to a non-profit, sold to another party willing to restore, or mothballed by the current owner and rehabbed. We value our old homes and are able to see beyond "ugly." It is imperative that you, our preservation commission, see the potential in this home and stand strong with us in preservation. This place matters.

[strider]

from August HPC meeting minutes:


MR. WOOD: I had a unique commentary in
that Carmen Godwin, the Executive Director of
Riverside Avondale Preservation had to leave,
and she asked if I could read her statement.
And I read it, and I agree with it. So I'm
going to read it, and you get a two-for-one
deal.

Riverside Avondale Preservation has
noticed an increase in demolition requests as
the real estate market returns. For example,
we recently had a similar request for a
similar -- for similar economic reasons.
The owner believes that demolishing a
contributing structure that sits next to a
noncontributing home he wants to sell will
increase the value of that home. He believes
an empty lot is worth more than one with an old
house on it that needs a lot of repairs, even
though he hasn't even tried to put it on the
market.
Economics is only one of the criteria for
demolition. Otherwise, most of us might have a
case. Owners of historic properties normally
do put way more into them than they get out of
it. That is one reason we have some of the
best real estate values in the state.
The value of the historic district is not
in one single structure, but in the collective
body of historic properties within the
boundaries. And as we chip away, the district
loses its character, what makes it unique. One
person may feel they're gaining from the
demolition, but the whole community loses.
There are alternatives, number one being,
to see -- to sell the building to someone who
wants to save it. The owner who wants to
demolish in our area owes nothing on the
building. So the risk to put it on the market
is very, very low. And I would presume this
building which sold recently at a tax sale has
probably got not too much it in.
We ask you as the JHPC to challenge
demolition requests, to push for more evidence.
If you see one quote, ask for three. Put more
burden on the owner because once the fabric is
gone, it's gone forever. And I've said many
times, you know, first you lose one house and
then the neighbors move away. Then you lose
another house, then you lose the block, then
you lose the neighborhood. So I think this is
a perfect example of that.
And I'll give you her written comments to
put in the record.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/community-planning-division/historic-preservation-commission.aspx

[JaxUnicorn]

At the August 26, 2015 meeting, the Historic Preservation Commission deferred the decision on the owner's demolition request to provide them time to gather additional evidence to support their request.  The September HPC packet has been published and there is nothing new relative to this structure.  Was additional evidence obtained, and if so, why was it not provided to Historic Planning in time to be included in the meeting book?

The day after the August HPC meeting I received a phone call from Tamara Baker with Baker Klein Engineering.  She wanted to know why Preservation SOS spoke against the demolition when her letter stated it needed to be demolished.  i asked her if she went upstairs during her inspection on July 1st.  Her answer was, "No" and I was shocked.  I shared with her that I have been inside this property and walked the ENTIRE structure and believe it is structurally stable.  At that point she asked if I would tour the property with her so that we could each expand on our views to the other.  We toured this structure on Thursday, September 3rd. 

I have a lot of respect for Tamara, the degree she holds, and her tireless work to improve our historic Springfield neighborhood.  She and I left the property agreeing to disagree on the suitability for restoration of this historic structure; I did not change her mind and she didn't change mine.  In this case, I believe she is wrong.  I believe this historic structure is suitable for restoration and should not be destroyed.

SAVE THE HOUSES!
EVEN THE UGLY, DAMAGED AND BURNED ONES.
THEY ALL MATTER!!!

[CCMjax]

At the August 26, 2015 meeting, the Historic Preservation Commission deferred the decision on the owner's demolition request to provide them time to gather additional evidence to support their request.  The September HPC packet has been published and there is nothing new relative to this structure.  Was additional evidence obtained, and if so, why was it not provided to Historic Planning in time to be included in the meeting book?

The day after the August HPC meeting I received a phone call from Tamara Baker with Baker Klein Engineering.  She wanted to know why Preservation SOS spoke against the demolition when her letter stated it needed to be demolished.  i asked her if she went upstairs during her inspection on July 1st.  Her answer was, "No" and I was shocked.  I shared with her that I have been inside this property and walked the ENTIRE structure and believe it is structurally stable.  At that point she asked if I would tour the property with her so that we could each expand on our views to the other.  We toured this structure on Thursday, September 3rd. 

I have a lot of respect for Tamara, the degree she holds, and her tireless work to improve our historic Springfield neighborhood.  She and I left the property agreeing to disagree on the suitability for restoration of this historic structure; I did not change her mind and she didn't change mine.  In this case, I believe she is wrong.  I believe this historic structure is suitable for restoration and should not be destroyed.

SAVE THE HOUSES!
EVEN THE UGLY, DAMAGED AND BURNED ONES.
THEY ALL MATTER!!!

I am also a structural engineer and am curious what the reasons were behind her conclusions.  Was there any report submitted?  I would assume it is not available to the public if so.  Can you give any more information on what the issues were that she saw?

[JaxUnicorn]

At the August 26, 2015 meeting, the Historic Preservation Commission deferred the decision on the owner's demolition request to provide them time to gather additional evidence to support their request.  The September HPC packet has been published and there is nothing new relative to this structure.  Was additional evidence obtained, and if so, why was it not provided to Historic Planning in time to be included in the meeting book?

The day after the August HPC meeting I received a phone call from Tamara Baker with Baker Klein Engineering.  She wanted to know why Preservation SOS spoke against the demolition when her letter stated it needed to be demolished.  i asked her if she went upstairs during her inspection on July 1st.  Her answer was, "No" and I was shocked.  I shared with her that I have been inside this property and walked the ENTIRE structure and believe it is structurally stable.  At that point she asked if I would tour the property with her so that we could each expand on our views to the other.  We toured this structure on Thursday, September 3rd. 

I have a lot of respect for Tamara, the degree she holds, and her tireless work to improve our historic Springfield neighborhood.  She and I left the property agreeing to disagree on the suitability for restoration of this historic structure; I did not change her mind and she didn't change mine.  In this case, I believe she is wrong.  I believe this historic structure is suitable for restoration and should not be destroyed.

SAVE THE HOUSES!
EVEN THE UGLY, DAMAGED AND BURNED ONES.
THEY ALL MATTER!!!

I am also a structural engineer and am curious what the reasons were behind her conclusions.  Was there any report submitted?  I would assume it is not available to the public if so.  Can you give any more information on what the issues were that she saw?

CCMjax and others interested, the updated engineer report can be found on Preservation SOS' forum at this link:
http://forum.preservationsos.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=119&start=10#p17741

Please take a look.  I'd love to hear your opinion.  The meeting on this historic structure starts at 3:00 today.

Also take a peek at the photographs I provided at the August meeting.  They can be found here: 
http://forum.preservationsos.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=119&sid=ba563a3fe2eb6260cae1822249fc453d#p17685