Roundabout at Atlantic and Beach

[CCMjax]

Anybody know if the city is considering replacing the overpass/intersection at Beach and Atlantic with a roundabout?  That overpass really kills the area immediately west of the Mudville Café.  Seems like a roundabout with a landscaped island would be really attractive and make that a better functioning intersection and welcoming point going into St. Nicholas from San Marco.  With how expensive San Marco is, St. Nicholas seems like a great option for those looking for something similar just not as expensive, however, I think there are some things like the roundabout idea that need to happen to make it more inviting.

[acme54321]

LOL.  I like a roundabout and all... but are you serious?  people around here can barely figure out how to to navigate a one lane round about.   The 3+ lane roundabout that would be required at that intersection would be an absolute shit show.  On top of that I highly doubt it would even fit in the existing intersection's footprint.

[thelakelander]

Neither of those streets are the city's.  They are both state highways.  I do not believe FDOT is considering placing a roundabout at that location.

[Adam White]

LOL.  I like a roundabout and all... but are you serious?  people around here can barely figure out how to to navigate a one lane round about.   The 3+ lane roundabout that would be required at that intersection would be an absolute shit show.  On top of that I highly doubt it would even fit in the existing intersection's footprint.

It wouldn't be so difficult if it was a roundabout with traffic lights. I don't think that would cause too many problems.

[spuwho]

I think Councilwoman Jenkins had a community meeting in St Nicholas about that intersection back in 2007. She was working on a neighborhood improvement plan.

Everyone agreed that the flyover ruined the neighborhood, but that intersection handles a lot of daily traffic. The only option considered viable to rid of the bridge was to bend Beach north to Atlantic at Hamburger Marys which wasnt popular either.

With I95 now supporting an exit ramp to Beach from the South as part of the Overland project, i expect a diversion of traffic from the Emerson exit, which will make that even busier.

Unfortunately St Nicholas is at the intersection of 2 main arterials that existed before the Mathews and Hart bridges were built.

[CCMjax]

LOL.  I like a roundabout and all... but are you serious?  people around here can barely figure out how to to navigate a one lane round about.   The 3+ lane roundabout that would be required at that intersection would be an absolute shit show.  On top of that I highly doubt it would even fit in the existing intersection's footprint.

There is a lot of room in there for a larger roundabout.  The center of it may have to shift east slightly into the existing parking lot but I'm not sure space would be the major issue. 

I constantly hear negative feedback whenever the word roundabout is mentioned, that we Americans can't figure them out, and they cause mass confusion and more traffic problems, but I'm unaware of any colossal failure amongst the one's I've come across, large or small volume.  Where is an example of one nearby, or anywhere, that did cause mass chaos and confusion to the point where it was worse than what it replaced?  I have not seen this confusion at all with the ones that were constructed in San Marco, they are actually very nice and traffic moves smoothly at all times.  The intersection at Beach and Atlantic is a different animal but I'm not going to be pessimistic about it until I hear a traffic professional or two with this type of experience weigh in on it and say "it ain't gonna work."

Another thing, the plan seems to be to race people through neighborhoods as quickly as possible and if you have to wait at all you need an elevated 4 lane expressway through the neighborhood to make people happy.  I've been through that intersection many times and have not experienced the huge traffic volumes, even during rush hour.  Maybe I've gotten lucky and hit on off days.  The mentality is similar to parking requirements I think.  The need for parking is often grossly overestimated resulting in huge parking lots that are typically half empty.  I'm not a traffic engineer but it seems like a roundabout could slow traffic through the center of St. N without creating bottlenecks, which is not a bad thing, both for pedestrians and drivers.

[jaxjaguar]

^Agreed. I was living in PVB when the roundabout was constructed out there. I heard the exact same arguments, "OMG people here are so stupid", "this is a terrible idea", etc. It works beautifully now and aside from a drunk driver going into the retention pond a few years ago, I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Personally I wish Jacksonville would adopt more of them (I can only think of 4-5. A couple in Southside, PV, and near MoSH). It's been proven by many studies to be the most efficient way to manage an intersection.

[tufsu1]

The area is one that will be studied by JTA as part of their upcoming Mobility Works - Complete Streets corridors.  Stay tuned for more information in the coming weeks/months on those efforts.

[southsider1015]

Edit:  Nevermind.  Wrong intersection.

[southsider1015]

Typically, a flyover like the WB Beach over Atlantic would be introduced if the this movement was really heavy compared with the Atlantic traffic.  Probably AM peak hour traffic headed downtown, rather than PM traffic leaving downtown.

Replacement with a roundabout would typically be driven by the overpass bridge service life.  If the traffic demands were changed, and more balanced, I could see a roundabout functioning well here. 

But were not going to go tearing down bridges/overpasses just to build roundabouts.

FDOT now requires the analysis for the application of roundabouts on some new projects, but not all. 

[Charles Hunter]

From the North Florida TPO's Traffic Count site - http://www.northfloridatpo.com/traffic_counts/
Atlantic, west of Traymore (2012)  48,732 - Traymore is just west of the flyover
Atlantic, 0.16 mile e. of Beach (2013) 27,000
Beach, 300; e. of Atlantic (2013)  21,300

Any traffic folk out there know how many lanes the roundabout would need to handle these traffic numbers?
In addition, you've got several neighborhood streets feeding into this intersection.

[CCMjax]

From the North Florida TPO's Traffic Count site - http://www.northfloridatpo.com/traffic_counts/
Atlantic, west of Traymore (2012)  48,732 - Traymore is just west of the flyover
Atlantic, 0.16 mile e. of Beach (2013) 27,000
Beach, 300; e. of Atlantic (2013)  21,300

Any traffic folk out there know how many lanes the roundabout would need to handle these traffic numbers?
In addition, you've got several neighborhood streets feeding into this intersection.

Well, enlighten those of us who aren't professional traffic folk, how many?  And they come in all shapes and sizes for different scenarios.  I did a case study report in grad school on a high volume roundabout in the UK with an odd shape similar to this one cutting right through the center of town just north of London that had no more than two lanes.  If I can find it I'll post it but I can't for the life of me remember the name of the town and think it was on a different computer.

I just think 30 years from now when we progress in our understanding of roundabouts as a society there will be one at this intersection and we'll be looking back and say "why wasn't this done before?"

[tufsu1]

basic rule of thumb is single lane roundabouts can handle 25,000 vehicles per day....2 lane roundabouts around 50,000...as of now, FDOT is not "approving" roundabouts larger than 2 lanes....I assume the solution in those cases would be to signalize some movements, making it more of a circle than a roundabout.

[thelakelander]

Seems to me that a roundabout would end up eating a portion of the neighborhood's town center. When the overpass reaches the end of its useful life, an at-grade intersection/boulevard would be just as effective and not result in a crazy amount of ROW acquisition.

[CCMjax]

Thanks tufsu for the numbers.  Looks like it would likely be 2 lanes.

Lake, I was trying to think of something that wasn't signalized and kept traffic moving.  Didn't they have a signalized intersection before and that's what wasn't working?  My vision was something similar to San Marco blvd when you enter San Marco square from downtown except slightly higher volumes so an extra lane.  The idea would be not to have people zip through St N but to intentionally slow them down but keep them moving, which is much more pedestrian friendly.  Right now it's tough to even walk on the sidewalks next to the stores because the traffic is bombing past you and it doesn't feel safe and isnt a pleasant experience.