The Secret Scam of Streetcars

[FSBA]

https://www.youtube.com/v/VpUQ_EMV23c

"Meet the Thighmaster of urban public policy: streetcars," proffers Reason TV's Rob Montz, who, other than borrowing one of Frank Gorshin's Riddler suits from the old Batman TV series, delivers a spot-on indictment of the graft and Barack to the Future mentality that, as he notes, causes "municipal politicians across the country" to convince themselves "that this costly, clunky hardware can revitalize their flabby downtown economies."

[simms3]

So true.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

The key is having a fixed and exclusive way that does not have to cross traffic as often.

[strider]

When street cars where the thing at the turn of the century, they ran on their own right of ways and let's face facts, few cars existed let alone were competing for space.  That is far from what we have today.  Fixed rail is a commercial development tool to some extent, which of course this presentation totally ignores because that would be contrary to it's reason for being made. And of course, the stats presented in this presentation are often ignored by those promoting street car. 

This brings us to the facts of the matter.  Like most things, street car only truly gives us all the potential benefits if done right.  Done right.  A phrase that can be seldom applied to much of anything these days. 

[CCMjax]

How is Tampa's new streetcar performing?  Doesn't Charlotte have a new one in addition to the light rail?  Curious to know how those are going.

My guess is once they get some of the quirky early issues sorted out with the DC system it will be more efficient and ridership will go up.

I think here in Jacksonville continue to improve the bus routes and BRT in and around the core, focus on medium rise infill development along these routes to increase ridership, and plan long term for a light rail system that reaches further out into the surrounding communities.  The light rail system doesn't make sense until there is more of a desire for people and businesses to locate downtown but there should be planning in place for it now.  30 years down the road this city will continue to be way behind if planning doesn't take place now.  My guess is most, if not all, cities that are currently over 1 million people in this country will have commuter rail in the next 50 years.  In Jax, it would probably make the most sense to construct new tracks along the existing rail lines to avoid conflicts with road traffic.  A good starter line in my opinion would be from Orange Park to downtown via the existing track route.  Perhaps Racetrack Road to downtown via the tracks next to Phillips.

[Adam White]

I would assume a streetcar (or tram, as I prefer to call them) won't do much in isolation. But as part of a larger, coordinated plan, it should be able to help encourage development.

I think a lot of these criticisms seem to focus on different elements in isolation - but certainly the approach to regeneration should be multifaceted.

[finehoe]

I look at the arguments against streetcars in the US similarly to the arguments against universal health care in the US.  How is it that every other developed country in the world can make it work but we can't?

[vicupstate]

Doesn't Charlotte have a new one in addition to the light rail?  Curious to know how those are going.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article17612207.html

The first phase of Charlotte's streetcar is closer to reality: On-street testing started Tuesday and is expected to continue Wednesday, the Charlotte Area Transit System said.

Pedestrians, drivers and cyclists are asked to be careful during tests. The streetcar cannot swerve to avoid people or vehicles in its way. The streetcar is scheduled to open in June.

Drivers who park along Trade and Elizabeth should park within solid white parking lines, or they could face a citation or towing.

[Adam White]

I look at the arguments against streetcars in the US similarly to the arguments against universal health care in the US.  How is it that every other developed country in the world can make it work but we can't?

The quasi-religious nutjobs at "Reason" don't think that way.

[simms3]

I look at the arguments against streetcars in the US similarly to the arguments against universal health care in the US.  How is it that every other developed country in the world can make it work but we can't?

Very few cities in the US are functionally like cities in Europe.  Putting a streetcar in Atlanta is not the same as putting in a streetcar in Ghent.  Europe and America are generally apples and oranges.  The streetcar isn't so much the problem - it's the layout and design of the city as well as the mentality of the people.

By the way, the most successful streetcar in America might be the E and F lines in San Francisco.  As a resident, I view them like I view the bus lines.  Tourists like them as well.  I don't actually view them or treat them as a separate streetcar and they aren't this clunky Siemens thing that the cities are all ordering that are more like full on light rail cars.  They are single heritage cars and I guarantee that these smaller older cars have far higher ridership than these clunky new cars that cities are putting in.  I would imagine the system in NOLA is similar...like a bus line for residents or a joyride for tourists.  Most new American streetcar systems are put in as seemingly touristy joyrides for residents!  Form over function.

[Adam White]

Very few cities in the US are functionally like cities in Europe.  Putting a streetcar in Atlanta is not the same as putting in a streetcar in Ghent.  Europe and America are generally apples and oranges.  The streetcar isn't so much the problem - it's the layout and design of the city as well as the mentality of the people.

I disagree - to an extent. When discussing Europe and trams it's easy to think of charming city centres - unchanged in many ways for hundreds of years (or more). But modern European cities sprawl far beyond those picturesque areas and stretch out into suburbs. Take Strasbourg for example. The tram runs from the city centre well out into the suburbs - with wider streets, large apartment blocks and even detached houses.

Perhaps an argument can be made about the mentality of the residents - but mentalities can be changed. Happens all the time.

[simms3]

^^^Development patterns are still quite different.  I'm well aware that European cities sprawl   But European sprawl is very different from American sprawl.  Besides, American cities are only building streetcars in the city centers, and the difference between American city centers and European city centers is even more stark than the difference between their sprawl.  Mentalities can't change that easily.

Making a city like Atlanta truly transit/walk first from where it is today could take 1,000 years at this point.  Even Euopeans today love their cars, but their cities weren't designed around the car and their cities are not conducive to making it easy to take trips with the car.

Also, to the point about race and trying to get white people to ride transit at the expense of bus lines that serve mostly black people...do you honestly think Europe has that problem like America does?  How backwards is this problem?!?  That's an American mentality that is a form of subtly, likely subconscious racism (let's call it prejudice...and it's probably not anti-black, more anti-lower class).  For whole generations now, transit has been a lower class thing.  It will take generations at least to change that in some people.  Europe *never* went through a phase where transit was just for lower class people.  And they never got rid of their transit lines and swapped them out for cars.  Mentalities are entirely fabricated.  Europe and America and largely opposite, so mentalities are largely opposite.

Mentalities can't just "change" and American cities can't just be rebuilt to be like the European cities that are covered in tram networks.  Agree to disagree!

[Adam White]

^^^Development patterns are still quite different.  I'm well aware that European cities sprawl   But European sprawl is very different from American sprawl.  Besides, American cities are only building streetcars in the city centers, and the difference between American city centers and European city centers is even more stark than the difference between their sprawl.  Mentalities can't change that easily.

Making a city like Atlanta truly transit/walk first from where it is today could take 1,000 years at this point.  Even Euopeans today love their cars, but their cities weren't designed around the car and their cities are not conducive to making it easy to take trips with the car.

Also, to the point about race and trying to get white people to ride transit at the expense of bus lines that serve mostly black people...do you honestly think Europe has that problem like America does?  How backwards is this problem?!?  That's an American mentality that is a form of subtly, likely subconscious racism (let's call it prejudice...and it's probably not anti-black, more anti-lower class).  For whole generations now, transit has been a lower class thing.  It will take generations at least to change that in some people.  Europe *never* went through a phase where transit was just for lower class people.  And they never got rid of their transit lines and swapped them out for cars.  Mentalities are entirely fabricated.  Europe and America and largely opposite, so mentalities are largely opposite.

Mentalities can't just "change" and American cities can't just be rebuilt to be like the European cities that are covered in tram networks.  Agree to disagree!

How are the development patterns that different? Or in what way/ways are they different enough to exclude tramways as a viable form of transport?

Regarding mentalities - I completely disagree. When I was just out of university in the mid-90s, I never would've expected gay marriage to be legalised in the USA. Beyond that - I never would've expected a majority of Americans to approve of it. When I moved to Jacksonville in 1979, I certainly didn't expect to ever see a black President. People can change - it just takes time. When it comes to transport, I'd argue it takes time and incentives.

[simms3]

Cars are a form of function, not a social opinion.  Mentalities regarding them are different than mentalities regarding gay marriage, in my opinion.

RE: differences in development patterns between Europe and America?  I'm not even going to go there.  I know you can select a few places in Europe that look like a few places in America, and they may even be served by trams, but overall the two continents are covered in cities that couldn't possibly be more different on the whole.

[Adam White]

Cars are a form of function, not a social opinion.  Mentalities regarding them are different than mentalities regarding gay marriage, in my opinion.

RE: differences in development patterns between Europe and America?  I'm not even going to go there.  I know you can select a few places in Europe that look like a few places in America, and they may even be served by trams, but overall the two continents are covered in cities that couldn't possibly be more different on the whole.

But Simms - they can look different, but that doesn't mean they can't both use trams. But I don't even think they're that different.

But I cannot accept that trams won't work in USA cities because they're different. I'd need some actual evidence or rationale to back up a statement like that before I'll accept it.