The Evolution of Avenues Walk

[thelakelander]

Despite the sprawling layout (which isn't suprising, considering where its going), it is next to the railroad tracks.  While its not Jackson Square, depending on where a commuter rail station goes, it can become a decent destination stop for rail passengers.





This is the site plan for the Santee Trolley Square in suburban San Deigo, CA.   Its still a sprawling typical big box retail center, but the incorporation on rail into the project makes it more walkable then typical suburban strip centers. 

The numerous amount of Avenues Walk plans tell me that this concept will probably end up changing like the others.  This means there may be a chance for JTA and commuter rail advocates to work with the developer to make sure it at least becomes a walkable rail destination.

[GideonGlib]

Planning and development in this town really do make you want to slit your wrist. Potential being near the proposed rail line, lots of land in the development and what do they want to do... sprawl, sprawl, sprawl. Thank goodness I never have to go to the southside.

[BridgeTroll]

With the coming depression you should be glad there is any developement in Jax... 

[apvbguy]

shades of being a modern day luddite

[nicktooch]

it also looks like there is also another access point between the 2 mentioned.

are they gonna close the bed bath & beyond next to borders?

the brunswick site was a big ? for me until reading this, great idea for a clean family-oriented place to go. d&b is still too adult and all the bowling places in jax are really sketchy.

i'll say it again: the superwalmart should've been a super target!

though they boast equal men's and women's apparel on their website but tend to stock 3/4 of their retail locations with only women's and a single wall of men's; the forever 21 will be nice from a young shopper's perspective.  compared to the one at regency that seems to only provide a wardrobe for those aforementioned ladies drinking martinis lol

[jeh1980]

Hey.......it's out in the suburbs people; what do you expect, a 70 story hotel/office complex?  I think it's "right on" and appropriate for the suburbs in Jacksonville.

Heights Unknown

I couldn't say it better myself.

[Developing101]

I like the monster truck mud pit idea!  I would find a way to visit that for some entertainment. 

I'm sure the current design will do what the developer wants - get good leasees with a solid business future.  The design is fine for what it is - corporate American big box retailers.  These projects are always going to happen and the Wal-Marts of the world don't see a financial turn around on spending more money on better design.  I wish this was not the case, but I doubt there is any changing it...  My hat is off to anyone that is able to make that happen.

Let's focus on getting some cool multi-use downtown. 

[cline]

lots of land in the development and what do they want to do... sprawl, sprawl, sprawl.

It is not sprawl because of what is being built on the site as you imply, it is sprawl simply because of its location.  You could build a 70 story office tower there and it is still going to be sprawling suburban office park.  Likewise, you could build a couple hundred SFDUs and it will just be another sprawling suburban neighborhood.   

The major issue I see with this site is that it has no real connectivity to surrounding land uses due to the barriers of the interstate and railroad tracks.  Because of this fact, as it stands now it will be another auto destination similar to the many others in Jacksonville.  However, unlike other developments in Jacksonville, this one has the potential to become transit oriented due to its proximity to the rail line.  As lake mentioned, while it is not Jackson Square, it could become a viable stop for transit riders rather than strictly an auto-oriented destination.  I would rather see a project built that has the potential for rail transit (such as this one) than a project with  low rail transit potential.  Hopefully the developer will follow through with the residential component so that the project will have a better mix of uses. 

[rjp2008]

There must be some financial reason why developments such as this first get proposed as walkable urban designs, and inevitably de-gress into the standard parking lot strip plot with wasted-space water retention ponds instead of design incorporated lakes.

There's absolutely nothing walkable about it. Complete lie.

[apvbguy]

There must be some financial reason why developments such as this first get proposed as walkable urban designs, and inevitably de-gress into the standard parking lot strip plot with wasted-space water retention ponds instead of design incorporated lakes.

There's absolutely nothing walkable about it. Complete lie.

it happens because it is a formula that works, developers rarely have a social agenda in mind, their motivation is profit and the strip mall/standard shopping center concept is one that works well for them.
regarding retention ponds, in this area they are a necessary evil, do you have a better method of runoff management?

[Doctor_K]

There's absolutely nothing walkable about it. Complete lie.

Then again, define 'walkable'?  Technically, I could walk to any commercial space in that development if I lived in the proposed adjacent Residential section of the property.  I'd have to cross a parking lot to get to the Wal-Mart and other outparcels, it looks like, but I could still do it.

lots of land in the development and what do they want to do... sprawl, sprawl, sprawl.

Wouldn't this also qualify more as suburban infill rather than sprawl?  BridgeTroll is right that anything not within the core could probably be considered sprawl, based on semantics, but IMO this is infill - i.e. utilizing empty space within the suburban fabric - rather than extending the sprawl into previously left-alone hinterland.

Again, probably all semantics.  Just a thought.

[cline]

There must be some financial reason why developments such as this first get proposed as walkable urban designs, and inevitably de-gress into the standard parking lot strip plot with wasted-space water retention ponds instead of design incorporated lakes.

I think that in this case and in many recent cases it has to do with the residential component.  In order to have a walkable environment that people actual use there needs to be someplace to walk to and from.  And I don't mean from your car and to the Bed Bath and Beyond.  With the initial site plan there was a significant amount of residential proposed.  With residential, you have residents that could easily walk from their home and to the store without ever having to get in your car.  Unfortunately, with the current market conditions, residential is becoming more difficult to build and sell.  Lenders do not want to lend money for residential and builders are not building as much residential due to the fact that there are no buyers.  So in this case I think the builder is doing what he has to do in order to get tenants and make his pro-forma work and it looks as though it is at the expense of the residential component.  

[thelakelander]

There must be some financial reason why developments such as this first get proposed as walkable urban designs, and inevitably de-gress into the standard parking lot strip plot with wasted-space water retention ponds instead of design incorporated lakes.

The design changes reflect the desire and demands of the retailers interested in this particular location.  They also reflect the fall of the residential market.  Original plans had condos on top of specialty retail, with a limited number of bix box anchors.  Instead of delaying the project with hopes to start back up when the residential market returns, they split off the residential component.  The specialty retail also had been replaced by a number of big box anchors.  Now its up to the city and JTA to work with the developer (this is the same group proposing Bay Street Station) to make sure that their project is well integrated into a much larger vision that includes commuter rail down the FEC corridor.  Even though the project now contains a ton of surface parking, there are things that can still be done to make sure its still a decent commuter rail station destination.  The Santee Trolley Square layout I posted earlier is a great example of a suburban retail strip being designed in a manner that still makes the site a transit friendly development.

[thelakelander]

Here's another example of a suburban strip center that accomodates rail.  This is the Cascade Station in suburban Portland.  When complete it will have two light rail stops.  This means that anyone living within walking distance of a rail line will be able to hop on a train to get to Target, IKEA, Best Buy and a host of other retailers, without using a car.  While it may be impossible to completely reverse the suburban nature of our sprawling areas, we can make sure new developments are transit friendly.  Having direct mass transit links with suburban centers like this can also benefit the urban core and those seeking to live in it.

[thelakelander]

I just got in from a Southeast CPAC meeting.  The Avenues Walk developers were there to present their latest plan.  To sum things up, the people there were upset because they say they were promised a Main Street style project and now it resembles a typical strip center.  I guess even Southsider's are tired of the sprawl development that engulfs this town.

The more and more I attend these type of meetings, I realize that many developers do not know how to present projects to the public.  Atlantic Coast could have saved themselves a lot of heart ache by bringing a site plan to discuss their changes and brushing up on pedestrian design.  Although, the market has changed since their original plan, there is a way to slightly modify their latest plan to achieve both their goals and the surrounding community's.  It also did not help that they could not describe something in town that would be similar to what they have currently proposed.  Just in case the developer or other's in that meeting come across this thread, its basically an Oakleaf Town Center or River City Marketplace, with a residential component next door.

Other than that, they did mention that they were paying for the six laning of Philips Highway and working with JTA to make the residential portion a TOD.  I just hope they realize, its not too late to make the entire east side of the project a pedestrian friendly TOD.