The Jacksonville Landing's Redevelopment Plan

[thelakelander]

The one in Tampa is more like grassroots in 5-Points, but they are slightly more affordable / carry more premade items (sandwiches, desserts, etc) similar to Fresh Market. It's just another option I think would be suited for the street level shops we have available.

http://duckweedurbanmarket.com/

Cool. This place must have opened fairly recently. That's good for Tampa.

[tufsu1]

It opened a few years ago downtown...in a very small space...it recently expanded

[Know Growth]

^ not if the owner isn't interested in leasing the space

Correct. Unsalable.

And believe me, folks from far flung places,Northeast US,a host of recognizable 'competitive' markets, and beyond,end up coming here,right now.......again and again- in my perspective,comming here to buy boats (and some,two recently, also on the lookout for "Investment" opportunity....it is interesting to captivate attention,direction ) ,they decide to keep the boat in the area for the time,an unanticipated revision to plan to Soon Go Elsewhere,local cruising.Check us out!! 

We carefully usher them to certain safe venue, they end up docking, stepping off the boat, walking the area....the Landing. CLUNK

At some point,unrealized "Potential" will become powerfully debilitating.

[simms3]

Turning the Landing into just another strip mall that happens to be on the water would be a mistake.

The owner of the building is the king of strip malls in NE Florida. Its all he knows. I doubt you get more than a strip mall with racing stripes in the final design.

People who live downtown already travel to the Publix in Riverside and the Fresh Market in Brooklyn. They don't need to be reminded of where to grocery shop, they've waited long enough for a downtown solution. Only way to grow downtown is provide the residents the basic services needed for after 5 pm. This would be the IDEAL time for an Alvin Brown "Public/Private" partnership, but I seriously doubt he has anything but a box of matches as he defends his job.

Sleiman has a more experienced development/equity partner and has retained an architectural firm who will do the heavy lifting of design work.  I'm not saying I disagree with you necessarily, or that I haven't said much the same thing in the past, but at the end of the day, feasibility and what the market can actually support will have more of an impact on what goes on the site than Sleiman's actual experience.

I've seen developers who put up pre-cast tilt-wall industrial distribution centers out of the blue complete a beautifully executed mixed-use development in an urban environment.  It just depends on a lot - financial backing/who $ comes from and in what structure, vision of developer, experience and vision of developer's team, and most importantly, what the market will be able to support.

If you want high quality finishes, excellent design by international or at least highly reputable national architectural firm, quality materials used, and brilliant execution by top notch leasing/marketing team for residential and commercial components, then you'd expect top dollar rents to be commanded and top dollar residential pricing (would likely be condos over apartments).  But the day that happens in Jacksonville (almost anywhere) is the day I get married into the Royal Family.

Sleiman could find more expensive partner with experience doing more "prestigious" deals, hire a more prestigious design firm, etc, and given that Jax can't support much quality retail anywhere (even on SS) and that Jax can't support big city rents, more money would be sucked up by financial partner and design firm and even less money would then be available to build something.

I agree that residences come first but it is a catch-22. The retail/grocery won't come until the people are there.  The people aren't coming because the retail/grocery isn't there yet.

I have held pretty firm in my belief that the primary reason that the people aren't there (or in the urban core in general) is that neither the jobs nor the center of gravity of town are downtown, but rather somewhere on the Southside.

Jax has to build the base for momentum.  The ultimate base is jobs.  There are relatively few jobs downtown.

Leadership in Jacksonville needs to figure out a way to get jobs downtown.  I.e. leadership needs to figure out how to transition companies already based in or moving to Jacksonville from wanting the "cheaper" SS option to wanting a downtown option.  What do these companies want?  They all claim parking is the primary issue for not locating downtown.  I've never heard so much bullshit - it's "intangible" and un-PC to say "downtown sucks and my employees prefer to live and work elsewhere, myself included" and it's an easy scapegoat, but if parking were the issue, you'd have no successful downtowns anywhere.  DT Jax has cheaper and more abundant parking than virtually any other downtown in America, and less traffic to and fro downtown than other cities, even cities of similar size.

What's the true difference in cost between SS Jax and DT Jax for companies moving to Jax from wayyy more expensive locales like NYC?  Someone at the City needs to be a frontman asking these questions and pitching that a company moving from NYC might save $10mm a year by locating off of Gate and only $9.2mm a year by signing a lease downtown, but what's the value of that $800K in terms of recruitment, access to amenities, entertainment, and other firms, etc.  Maybe that's the kind of incentive warranted - if a company is going to move to Jax anyway, and desires a build-to-suit or a lease on the SS, figure out if there is a true cost differential to downtown and offer that as an incentive to get them to move downtown instead.

Momentum for creating a great urban living place will be that much higher if the ultimate justification (aka nearby jobs) is in place.

I still think the city should sell him the land underneath the buildings he owns for fair market value if he's willing to pay that and let him do whatever he wants with it while paying full property taxes.  The landing should be privately owned and developed without city interference if we can make that happen.

I totally disagree.  There is nothing wrong with a long term ground lease on valuable waterfront land that demands public access and public regulation and ultimate taxpayer control.  This is common sense.  Giving it away (even for a short term penny) would be a terrible mistake.  Look at the mistake that is the land owned by CSX along the river.  Ugh  As someone who works intimately in this industry, there is *nothing* related to the ground lease itself that is preventing anything from getting done on the site.  If there is a reason and market to get something built yesterday, we would have seen something built yesterday.  Problem isn't ground lease.  Problem is DT Jax as a whole.

Well, the Fresh Market has only recently opened, so whatever impact is will eventually have is only beginning to be felt. Also, Obviously it is a step in the right direction. F.M. is more of a specialty/gourmet market and they don't have all the sundry things that a full size grocer would have.

My hunch is that the Fresh Market rides the PR wave that is "downtown store" and "urban format" etc etc - probably gets more publicity that way as being seen as a pioneer and the first new downtown grocer in a while.  But I bet the fact remains that there were no other viable sites, the developer had experience to get it done and likely some sort of working relationship with FM, and at the end of the day, the whole entire driver here is that Ortega through San Marco is underserved for organic/higher end grocers and are a collective large enough market for a mid-size format such as FM and this site provides easy access on the GOING HOME side of the road for drivers to easily and quickly pull in and out from either San Marco or Ortega/Avondale.

And on that note...

MMR, a downtown should be completely walkable / connected. Go to downtown Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, pretty much any other mildly successful downtown and you can find a grocery store/s. It helps encourage the lifestyle of not needing to drive, being able to grab something really quick on your way home from work to avoid traffic (residents that only work downtown), gives hotel visitors a place to walk to for snacks or cheaper pre-made meals. 

I think an urban market would fair really well or the farmers market, if they weren't so set on being in their current location. But at this point, I would be willing to accept any major affordable grocer. My dream scenario would be to: walk across the street to the skyway, be dropped off in-front of a grocer, buy my things for the next 2-3 days, hop back on the skyway to get home.

In the scenario above I could do what many downtown residents in other cities do... get rid of my car. I would be able to live, work, have medical appointments, shop and play without driving anywhere.

I lived in Midtown Atlanta for years.  Lots of grocery options there.  I did walk as much as I had it in me to do, but the South in general just isn't a walking type of region (and there's limited shade and lots of heat).  I only walked because I wanted to "feel" urban.  It was actually more convenient, free, and easier for me to hop in my car, park in the Publix garage, shop, and drive back, park in my garage, and elevator up.  Unless you lived in Plaza Midtown or Savannah Apartments or in Atlantic Station or oddly adjacent to Ansley Park Publix in Atlanta, 95+% chance you still drove (unless you were a freshman/sophomore Georgia Tech student without a car).

If you live in 11 East Forsyth, the Strand, Berkman Plaza, Metropolitan Lofts, etc, MY ASS you're going to be walking to Fresh Market to grocery shop, even if it were a straight shot ped friendly without highways and overpasses.  Jax has no traffic except for 1 hour a day.  You'll get in your car, which is parked in your covered garage underneath or adjacent to your building, drive over hassle free in your AC with your stereo, shop, and drive back.  Fact.

I can think of only a small handful of cities where people walk and grocery shop.  None are in the south.  There are always exceptions to the rule.  And if there are any exceptions to the Jax rule, they are ALL likely to be on this board.  All 5 of them.  LoL

And from experience, walking to grocery shop >>>>>> taking public transit with bags.  It's not common to see people with grocery bags on the NYC, Boston, DC, or SF subways.  People walk to what's near where they live.  If it's a long walk up a hill, the only thing worse is waiting for a bus or train and getting on that train with your groceries - and nobody else appreciates that either.



I also just want to point out that years ago I advocated for the Landing to become something like Pike's Market, the Ferry Building, Chelsea Market, Reading Terminal, Krog St Market/Ponce City Market, etc etc. 

Compared to doing a larger mixed-use development involving tearing down the existing structure, intensive site work, and new ground-up construction, a repositioning to something more organic and local with local purveyors and a blind faith financial effort in seeing something evolve over time would be "no frills", relatively speaking, and as we like to say on this site, but it would require a whole different kind of financial backing - more expensive at that.  You wouldn't be able to finance that development - you'd have to find very expensive equity for it (my previous firm would be an excellent partner - they'd require a lot of input and fees, and likely wouldn't do a deal in Jacksonville, but there are others out there).  So from that standpoint, it's FAR more risky, but would involve far less money at the end of the day.

My hope would be that Sleiman and his family would have enough money to bankroll it enough to get it to a point where they could find cheaper equity to recapitalize the project or even traditional financing if it really takes off.

But if we're talking Whole Dollar Profit and "return", it probably makes sense from Sleiman's perspective to do what he's doing.  That's my problem at the end of the day - it's a quicker, more rewarding proposition, but does less for the community on such community-important land.  Wish there were more "developer altruism".

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

The one in Tampa is more like grassroots in 5-Points, but they are slightly more affordable / carry more premade items (sandwiches, desserts, etc) similar to Fresh Market. It's just another option I think would be suited for the street level shops we have available.

http://duckweedurbanmarket.com/

Cool. This place must have opened fairly recently. That's good for Tampa.

It's been open for several years. The second location going into Channelside opens in September.

[mtraininjax]

If you live in 11 East Forsyth, the Strand, Berkman Plaza, Metropolitan Lofts, etc, MY ASS you're going to be walking to Fresh Market to grocery shop, even if it were a straight shot ped friendly without highways and overpasses. 

Simms, (I want to call you by your real name, but I resisted, ha ha), you hit the nail on the head. This is the real issue, and very few of the posters will actually try and bike, walk, scooter from a downtown location to FM in July when its 92 and feels like 102 degrees.

Downtown needs grocery stores close to where people live, 1, maybe 2 blocks to make downtown work for more people. Once people see the basics, grocery, cleaners, yes-more restaurants, there will be more push and demand for downtown.

All these new building concepts of residential downtown need a bodega or small local grocery store, more than a 7-11, but something with fresh fruits and veggies and choices for working professionals who live downtown. No new residential should be without such an option. Of course, this takes backbone, something which our current administration has none, so someone in DIA or other group will need to lead the charge for more downtown to support this growth.

Landing can come back and be a major entry/exit point, and I think residential is an excellent choice there, because the river view is incredible there. But it also needs a way to support its residents.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

http://www.pikeplacemarket.org/

Make the Landing inside into a market with farmer's market and craft vendors such as Pike Place Market in Seattle. Also, market some event space in there for special events. Give it that cool vibe and work to bring in some cool local restaurants with the new vibe and I'm telling you it would kill two birds with one stone (new focus/vibe for Landing and fresh groceries).