FDOT's First Coast Expressway

[Tacachale]

I don't think there's much of an argument that this is going to be a major traffic alleviator, or that it's something the citizens actually want. And it's definitely not the case that people want tolls, in fact it's exactly the opposite.

It does have the potential to spark economic development, particularly in two areas that are far two heavy in residential right now. But if economic development is really what we want, there are plenty of things that would have a higher payoff for $2 billion.

[RattlerGator]

RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years.  Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much.  (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)

And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me. 

This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing. They subsidize many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.

I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/

Current conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.

Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.

A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .

In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .

To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.

So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.

I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.

[thelakelander]

^No need to bow down to me on this. To each his own. That's the great thing about America. Anyway, I'm not even talking about tipping the balance back to the city center. I'm talking about developing and growing responsible. This is about as regional as it can get. Fiscal unsustainability shouldn't be desired in Duval, Clay, St. Johns or any place for that matter.

[Tacachale]

Rattler, the issue with this expressway is an issue with the expressway, not with the people and communities it's supposed to serve. In my view, serving those communities and alleviating traffic problems is a secondary goal of the project. The main purpose is economic development. Again, in my view, there are plenty of other ways to spur economic development for less money than this.

[tufsu1]

I have also seen the traffic models.  The First Coast Expressway will do just fine in attracting motorists between I-10 and Blanding.....if (and only if) the toll prices are reasonable.  We'e talking something like $0.25 per mile....none of this $10-$12 each way stuff.

That said, the portion from Blanding around to US 17 is a dog.  there is very little demand for the road even 25 years from now.  The best way to change that is to not widen local roads.  That's what the private market wanted to ensure there was no competition and Clay County and FDOT wouldn't agree.  And now the result is the public FDOT Turnpike division is building the road.

The same thjng holds true with the river crossing.  That has the potential to be a major money maker for the corridor.  But since the Shands Bridge is free today, Clay County wants assurances that local trips won't have to pay a toll on the replacement bridge. 

And finally, the segment in St. Johns County makes some sense for that growing area.

The sadly comical thing is that the road was sold as an outer beltway and alternative to I-295.  Why would anyone (especially trucks) take a nearly 50-mile long toll road versus the currently free (and being widened) I-295? 

[copperfiend]

Reminds me of when I was in Orlando last year. Took 429 from Kissimmee to Mt Dora. There was almost nobody else on the road and it was in the middle of the afternoon. Could not find a purpose for the road other than to open land for possible development.

[DemocraticNole]

RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years.  Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much.  (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)

And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me. 

This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing. They subsidize many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.

I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/

Current conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.

Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.

A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .

In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .

To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.

So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.

I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.

The general public often wants things that don't make practical or financial sense. Having single-family home construction is fine, but we as a society should have a more honest discussion about the true monetary and societal costs on some of these sprawling developments.

I live in Tampa now, so this First Coast Expressway doesn't directly impact me. To me, I see some reasonable arguments on both sides. However, as someone who is a big component of expanded freeway capacity in this state, it just doesn't seem that this project really has solid financial footing. Imagine the amount of quality mass transit that could be built for the amount of money they are spending on the FCE.

Jacksonville already has the best freeway infrastructure in relation to population size in the state. Florida on a whole though does a terrible job with freeway building and design in my opinion. You either get some borderline boondoggles like parts of the Polk Parkway or projects that are 20-40 years too late (I-4 upgrades coming in Orlando). Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.

Whenever I travel, I am always reminded of just how far behind the times Florida really is. Even car-centric metros like Phoenix, AZ have solid freeway networks and are moving forward with good mass-transit options. When I was in LA two weeks ago, I saw the upgrades that have been done to the 110 Fwy south of downtown LA. The freeway has been widened, tolled express lanes have been added, and the metro train runs right down the middle with several stops. That's the kind of comprehensive transportation upgrades I wish we would see more often here in Florida.

[tufsu1]

Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.

don't worry....the I-275 reconstruction project creates a big wide median that will soon accommodate tolled express lanes...check out this beauty!

http://previews.urscreativeimaging.com/future_projects/flash-videos/I275.html

And the SR 60 / Airport interchange will be reconstructed as soon as the current I-275 project is done....and following that will be a new span of the Howard Frankland Bridge.

Hooray for more highway capacity!

[DemocraticNole]

Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.

don't worry....the I-275 reconstruction project creates a big wide median that will soon accommodate tolled express lanes...check out this beauty!

http://previews.urscreativeimaging.com/future_projects/flash-videos/I275.html

And the SR 60 / Airport interchange will be reconstructed as soon as the current I-275 project is done....and following that will be a new span of the Howard Frankland Bridge.

Hooray for more highway capacity!

Being talked about and getting built are two different things. The SR 60 interchange and Howard Frankland replacement will take forever to be built. If those are done by 2030, I'd be shocked. The tolled express lanes have no timeline to be built to my knowledge.

I want to encourage more transit use and am a big proponent of both light and heavy rail. However, I don't think we can just take the approach to never expand roadways ever again. The governor should have never canceled the high speed rail project, especially given that he authorized SunRail. I would prefer to see the 275 median used for rail before express lanes. Again, I think the Harbor Transitway in LA (110 Fwy) is a good example of trying to combine freeway expansion with transit upgrades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbor_Transitway. I leaving transit on the whole for a separate discussion.

[jcjohnpaint]

I remember waiting for that silver line under the 105 and 110 in the middle of the night.  It never showed up.  Waiting for 2 hours or so and almost choked on all the smog under all those overpasses.   

[southsider1015]

I have also seen the traffic models.  The First Coast Expressway will do just fine in attracting motorists between I-10 and Blanding.....if (and only if) the toll prices are reasonable.  We'e talking something like $0.25 per mile....none of this $10-$12 each way stuff.

That said, the portion from Blanding around to US 17 is a dog.  there is very little demand for the road even 25 years from now.  The best way to change that is to not widen local roads.  That's what the private market wanted to ensure there was no competition and Clay County and FDOT wouldn't agree.  And now the result is the public FDOT Turnpike division is building the road.

The same thjng holds true with the river crossing.  That has the potential to be a major money maker for the corridor.  But since the Shands Bridge is free today, Clay County wants assurances that local trips won't have to pay a toll on the replacement bridge. 

And finally, the segment in St. Johns County makes some sense for that growing area.

The sadly comical thing is that the road was sold as an outer beltway and alternative to I-295.  Why would anyone (especially trucks) take a nearly 50-mile long toll road versus the currently free (and being widened) I-295?

Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?

LMAO at the comparison made between LA and Florida.  Really?

Trying to compare FDOT, Caltrans, TexDOT, and the rest of the state DOTs isn't really fair considering the revenues, drivers, industries, growth management policies, and other factors involved.

[southsider1015]

RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years.  Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much.  (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)

And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me. 

This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing. They subsidize many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.

I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/

Current conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.

Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.

A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .

In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .

To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.

So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.

I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.

Finally.  Another voice who gets it.  It's about choices.  There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core.  Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.  I want my yard, my space, my silence.  I want low crime in communities with other families.  I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.

[tufsu1]

Being talked about and getting built are two different things. The SR 60 interchange and Howard Frankland replacement will take forever to be built. If those are done by 2030, I'd be shocked. The tolled express lanes have no timeline to be built to my knowledge.

The SR 60 interchange will be under construction in just a few years...as will the bridge.  Early design of the interchange is underway, and FDOT is planning to put them out in one giant design- build contract by 2018

[tufsu1]

Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?

Its called the Northeast Florida Regional Planning Model (NERPM)...perhaps you have heard of it?

The version I am talking about is the one adopted with the 2035 regional Long Range Transportation Plan....which included socioeconomic data endorsed by all the local governments as being consistent with their comprehensive plans.

and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?

[thelakelander]

I remember waiting for that silver line under the 105 and 110 in the middle of the night.  It never showed up.  Waiting for 2 hours or so and almost choked on all the smog under all those overpasses.   

I took the Silver Line a few years ago. Yeah, the smog and the fumes of from the passing traffic is pretty unbearable.