FDOT's First Coast Expressway

[southsider1015]

LMAO at the article about Brown disagreeing with tolls.  It's quite obvious that he has no relationship with the Governor or FDOT, because if he did, everyone would be on the same page.  He's a populist, pure and simple.  He lacks the ability to govern effectively and forge relationships and parterships with other agencies and municipalities.  He's in over his head (as many local politicians here are) when it comes to tolling discussions.

[southsider1015]

Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year.  I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point.   I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.

Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.

Still waiting for your source.  Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions. 

[southsider1015]

^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.

Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.  Do you think FTE is in the business of making bad financial decisions? 

[southsider1015]

BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.

[thelakelander]

Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year.  I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point.   I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.

Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.

Still waiting for your source.  Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions.

I'm basically talking about the models we use and flaws in them. With that said, you'll be waiting awhile. The only real digging I'm doing over the next few weeks with my free time is for my upcoming book script deadline for Arcadia Publishing. However, if you want to cherry pick something you believe validly shows the FCE will result in removing congestion off Blanding and US 17, I'll be more than happy to spend a minute or two poking holes in it.

[thelakelander]

BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.

Yes, I said earlier that it is not funded for construction. That's going to take a pretty penny. We'll have to wait a bit for Central and South Florida drivers to generate some cash that can be bonded to send up here since we can't afford it.

[thelakelander]

^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.

Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.

It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all.  Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.

[southsider1015]

Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year.  I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point.   I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.

Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.

Still waiting for your source.  Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions.

I'm basically talking about the models we use and flaws in them. With that said, you'll be waiting awhile. The only real digging I'm doing over the next few weeks with my free time is for my upcoming book script deadline for Arcadia Publishing. However, if you want to cherry pick something you believe validly shows the FCE will result in removing congestion off Blanding and US 17, I'll be more than happy to spend a minute or two poking holes in it.

Ok, just wanted to see your write that essentially couldn't due to the subjective nature of traffic modeling and forecasting.  It's educated guesses at best, sure, that can have holes poked in by either side.

But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails.  High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion.  Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand?  No doubt.  But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists. 

[southsider1015]

^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.

Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.

It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all.  Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.

Isn't the NYC subway system considered a money loser?  What other modes of transportation are money makers?  Commuter transit? Rail? Amtrak?  BRT?  Come on now.

Infrastructure isn't constructed to make money.  User based fees are the way to go.

[thelakelander]

But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails.  High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion.  Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand?  No doubt.  But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists. 

But at the end of the day, doesn't using common sense bring us to the realization that the well is running dry? Thus, we have to find new revenue streams, do better with what we have and take a closer look at the proper integration between land use and our transportation investments.

[southsider1015]

BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.

Yes, I said earlier that it is not funded for construction. That's going to take a pretty penny. We'll have to wait a bit for Central and South Florida drivers to generate some cash that can be bonded to send up here since we can't afford it.

You're mostly right.  But honestly, is that really so bad?  I'm half joking.

From what I understood during the P3 process, the concessionaire of Dragoon from Spain was VERY serious about the P3.  But since it fell through, they only way for them to get a piece of the action was to chase the Design-Build jobs.  WHICH, BTW, they've won BOTH the North and South projects, allowing them to become established in North Florida. 

It's a topic that I've been thinking about for the last few years, and if trends continue, and they continue to "buy" jobs, I'll want to discuss in depth with you further.  I think many patriots in this area and state would be interested to know about the amount of tax dollars that are being paid to an international firm and leaving our borders.

[southsider1015]

But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails.  High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion.  Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand?  No doubt.  But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists. 

But at the end of the day, doesn't using common sense bring us to the realization that the well is running dry? Thus, we have to find new revenue streams, do better with what we have and take a closer look at the proper integration between land use and our transportation investments.

Is the well running dry?  Or are our priorities as a country/state/city have become misguided?  Maybe we need to be appropriating our dollars more toward infrastructure, and less on defense spending?  How about entitlement spending?  It's another discussion of course, but I wont give in that we don't have the money to properly fund infrastructure.

[thelakelander]

^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.

Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.

It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all.  Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.

Isn't the NYC subway system considered a money loser?  What other modes of transportation are money makers?  Commuter transit? Rail? Amtrak?  BRT?  Come on now.

Infrastructure isn't constructed to make money.  User based fees are the way to go.

Funny you mention the NYC Subway. I just got back from NYC two days ago. NYC is 304 square miles and has over 8.4 million residents. That place is a global economic money generator. That level of density would not have been remotely possible if not for the construction of the subway system over a century ago. So, directly, it may not break even but indirectly, money is flowing like it's growing on trees. I'd love for us to get to a point to where our transportation network generates a level of economic development that indirectly covers our infrastructure costs and more. That situation is a positive return of investment. Unfortunately, we're not there yet.


From my hotel room in Queens.

[tufsu1]

Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.  Do you think FTE is in the business of making bad financial decisions? 

The Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway would be proof that yes, sometimes they do!

[thelakelander]

Lol, the Polk Parkway! 16 years later and you can still lay down and take a nap on the Auburndale segment without worrying about getting run over. With that said, some landowners down there want a second loop around Haines City.



To a degree, the talk happening in Clay now reminds me of the talk surrounding the need for the Polk Parkway back in early 1990s. In 1990, they were predicting that Winter Haven would have 60k residents by 2000. It's 2015  and the city is still under 40k.