Metro Jacksonville Rail Plan Already Spurring Development?

[JeffreyS]

Has this developer been pulling bait and switches. Maybe guilty of not making good plans and developments going bad or a history of having negative impacts on neiborhoods?

[tufsu1]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

And they'll be $700/month apartments at that. And, they're ON PHILIPS HWY.  Not in "San Marco."  They will be Philips Highway low-rent apartments.

actually no...some of the highest end apartments and condos are in fact very dense...comparable projects in other cities have been shown.

btw...since when is $700 for a studio apt. "low end"?

This is the issue!  Too many people in too small a space. The developer is selling it to us like it will be luxury condos, when they are actually crackerbox apartments.

[thelakelander]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

And they'll be $700/month apartments at that. And, they're ON PHILIPS HWY.  Not in "San Marco."  They will be Philips Highway low-rent apartments.

This is the issue!  Too many people in too small a space. The developer is selling it to us like it will be luxury condos, when they are actually crackerbox apartments.

Since no actual floor plans and construction documents have been completed, its off-base to call anything crackerbox, at this point.  Just because a development has high density does not mean it has to be slums.  Anyone who believes this, has not spent much time in walkable residential districts of America's largest urban centers.

[thelakelander]

Do you know that Jacksonville's rental market is currently at 80% occupancy?  And they just built an apartment complex on Atlantic and University.  Why do we need 900 more?

Location, location, location.  Atlantic and University is not the urban core.  A transit oriented development appeals to a certain crowd that typical suburban developments don't.

Does anyone honestly think they will be rented?  There are so many alternatives to choose from to rent rather than an apartment that is blasted by a train horn at all hours and down the street from "hot sheet" motels.  Who wants to raise their kids in that environment when there are plenty of other apartments to choose from?

Yes, I fully believe they will be rented.  I base this off the success of similar projects across the country.  We're behind the curve on this.  Also, the targeted tenants won't be traditional families with multiple kids.  They're more likely to be recent college graduates, empty nesters and singles.

So, if the developer doesn't get the occupancy levels they want, they'll have to lower the rent.  $700/month is already pretty low.  What if they go down to $500/mo?  What will we have then?

Keep in mind, the development would total 900 units at buildout.  If the occupancy levels are low, the developer would not move forward with the second phase.  Depending on the design, if it does not work as residential (which is doubtful), perhaps it can be switched to office space.  After all, the PUD calls for 200,000 square feet office space, but the site plan does not indicate it.

I don't think that will kill the blight in Philips, it will only contribute to it.  And the prostitutes will just have some new customers and drug dealers will have a park (FEC Park) to do business in. Cypress will be long gone trying to sell their next project to the unsuspecting public.

Please take a look through the entire two threads on this topic.  There are various images of this type of project in our peer cities.  They'll give you a better idea of whats being proposed.

[thelakelander]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

There are several lovely apartment buildings in Atlanta's and Orlando's urban core.  We'll be lucky if we can get a few well designed structures in Jacksonville.  Also, don't focus on the split.  150,000 square feet of retail is a ton.  Make it 50/50 and this development will be a lot denser than proposed.

Expensive parking structures and swimming pools will not magically "fix" the situation on Philips.  900 low-rent apartments are definitely not the answer.  In 5 years they could turn into more of the same thing as what we already have (except they will rent by the month, not the hour)

Why not put a Home Depot there instead, and a SMALLER amount of nicer upscale apartments (limit to 300).  Why do we need 900 crackerboxes on the border of a well-established, single-family home neighborhood.  There is no infrastructure for 900 families, their cars, their children, and their needs.

A Home Depot with a couple of hundred units of apartments on top of it, would be nice.  A suburban big box store with huge asphalt parking lots in this area would be a waste.  This style of design sent this area down the tubes a few decades ago.  Jacksonville's core needs to become a walkable mixed-use community again.  Suburbanism is ruining our city and straining our resources.

[thelakelander]

While I'm certainly for having a TOD approved at this site, these are things that need to be worked out:

As a long-time resident of San Marco, I am greatly concerned about what I have heard about the Jackson Square project.  The developer has presented one set of information to the San Marco Preservation Society and a completely different set of information in their PUD.  For example, they told us that the residential use would be about 300 dwellings â€" not the 900 they are proposing. They told us that the height of the buildings would not exceed 4 stories, but the PUD proposes 7 stories.  They do not have a compatibility plan for schools, water runoff, vehicle access or parking.  They have limited their plan to only 10% green space â€" which includes the existing park.  It’s a travesty!

Things will go a lot smoother on projects like this if all sides are willing to work together and keep everything in the open.

[southerngirl]

Lake - the problem is, all of the details that are typically required in a PUD BEFORE it's submitted were somehow allowed to be omitted from this particular PUD. 

Do the names attached to this project -- Petway/Harden -- have anything to do with the speed and under-the-radar-ness of the approval of components of this PUD?

Seems the Planning Dept hasn't required nearly the level of scrutiny of a project of this size -- one that is being tied to an as-yet approved TOD -- that are necessary for a PUD application.

FirstStar says they've been working on this for 18 months, but Harden & Co. cram a very weak PUD through in a matter of weeks and now the neighbors are supposed to hope that there will be dialogue?

So, since we're getting the feeling that this one is a done deal -- does anyone know much about train horn noise and how it bounces off 6-story buildings? Should we all now take out second mortgages to buy new windows to protect from the noise?  What about the lights for a residential/commercial site of this size? Are we going to have to drive out of town to ever see the stars again?

[SanMarcoResident]

Lake - the problem is, all of the details that are typically required in a PUD BEFORE it's submitted were somehow allowed to be omitted from this particular PUD. 

Do the names attached to this project -- Petway/Harden -- have anything to do with the speed and under-the-radar-ness of the approval of components of this PUD?

Seems the Planning Dept hasn't required nearly the level of scrutiny of a project of this size -- one that is being tied to an as-yet approved TOD -- that are necessary for a PUD application.

FirstStar says they've been working on this for 18 months, but Harden & Co. cram a very weak PUD through in a matter of weeks and now the neighbors are supposed to hope that there will be dialogue?

So, since we're getting the feeling that this one is a done deal -- does anyone know much about train horn noise and how it bounces off 6-story buildings? Should we all now take out second mortgages to buy new windows to protect from the noise?  What about the lights for a residential/commercial site of this size? Are we going to have to drive out of town to ever see the stars again?

Southerngirl I agree with you.  The reason the residents are suspicious of this development is the tactics being used by this developer.  We're NOT against development - but we feel we are being hoodwinked!  They come with their smooth, slick presentation to appease all of us that they are building Shangri-la in our backyard, give us phony numbers, and expect that none of us have a brain cell large enough to comprehend the PUD, it's incompleteness, and the big push to get this through before we notice that their application doesn't match what they told us.  One of the reps from the developer even had the nerve to address a concerned resident as "little lady" and said she didn't need to worry her head over these matters - that they were the experts!  How can we trust them when they take this approach? They are insulting our intelligence and it is only fair that we all examine the total impact of this project and have a voice so that we can reach some synergies between all interests.

Lakeland - you make some very good points and have educated me in many ways.  All of us in the neighborhood agree IN THEORY with the concept, but we want a voice, and we would like to see this scaled down from 900 to a more manageable number of residents - perhaps 300-350, higher end units.  The project is touted as "mixed use" yet with 90% residential, it hardly seems "mixed use" to me.  I would love to see this site become attractive and SUSTAINABLE.  We see a lot of pretty pictures on this board - does anyone have any that are 8-10 years old?  That's what we want to see - long-term viability, which means more than just a nice facade facing Philips.

[Ocklawaha]

-- does anyone know much about train horn noise and how it bounces off 6-story buildings?

If the crossing at River Oaks remains you WILL hear the horn of the train. Standard operating rules require TWO LONG - ONE SHORT - ONE LONG.... (held if needed), at each crossing. If a City passes a no horn rule then they must assume some liability for accidents.

The horn it's self will have a "Dopler Effect" You will hear one sound going out, and another going back. Same when a train passes a crossing holding that last note. As the locomotives pass, the pitch of the horn will change.

If commuter rail comes along and the crossing is closed. Trains pulling out will sound two very short horn signals just before they roll foward, 3 if they are backing up, 1 to stop-though this last one is largely not followed today.

If commuter rail turns out to be Light Rail or a City owned RDC/DMU type vehicle, they could be equipped as most INTERURBANS and LRT lines. A soft voiced "Whooo Whoooo" type WHISTLE (not a horn) can still be heard at the crossing but hardly at all a block away. Most of these vehicles include a fire-truck type horn to sound in emergencys such as car on the track, or man down on the track.

OCKLAWAHA

[Lunican]

I think it would be difficult to get a quiet zone created at this location. The new FRA rules, which allow the creation of quiet zones if a crossing has extra safety devices installed, are not applicable on the Florida East Coast Railway because of FRA Emergency Order 15. Also, FEC opposes quiet zones.

There are no exempt crossings in Jacksonville. I believe there are a few in South Florida.

Emergency Order 15, issued in 1991, requires the Florida East Coast Railway Company to sound locomotive horns at all public grade crossings. The Emergency Order preempted State and local laws that permitted nighttime bans on the use of locomotive horns. Amendments to the Emergency Order did, however, permit the establishment of quiet zones if supplementary safety measures were implemented at every crossing within a proposed quiet zone. The supplementary safety measures specified in the Emergency Order are similar, but are not identical, to the supplementary safety measures contained in FRA’s Final Rule on the Use of Locomotive Horns at Highway-Rail Grade Crossings (70 FR 21844).

[southerngirl]

Today's posts just add legitimate reasons to the list of why the city should close the crossing at River Oaks and put in speed bumps on Lorimier, Dunsford, Kingswood and Inwood to alleviate their concerns, as well.

FEC wants it closed. The direct-impact neighborhood overwhelmingly supports closure. The folks on Belote, Pineridge and Marco, now that we're becoming increasingly aware of the sound bounce impact of the massive structures are also going to hope the city does something to prevent train horns in that corridor.

Closing the crossing just makes sense for so many reasons:
1. It's a documented unsafe crossing (as determined by a COJ-sponsored study in 2006),
2. Protects the traffic safety of the River Oaks Community,
3. Removes the need for the city to consider widening a street that simply can't be widened without putting cars in people's living rooms
4. Stops train horns from being blasted and bounced off a potential 6-story complex back into this area.

If the city and the developer REALLY want to show good faith and interest in their impact on the neighboring streets -- they'd come to the table with a proposal and timeline for closing the crossing.

If they won't consider it at all -- then what we suspect is happening behind the scenes is probably, sadly, true:  powerful people are planning to make River Oaks Road a major throughway. To do so, they will have to take the yards on this street and they're just too chicken to admit it.

Speaking of chickens...guess which Councilman didn't show up for the community meeting Thursday night where the issue was discussed in detail?  Yup.  Councilman Shad.  This was the biggest community meeting in his district in years, about a subject that HIS constituents are wanting answers and to be heard and he DOES NOT SHOW AGAIN.  He didn't attend a meeting at the developer's site three weeks ago and now he doesn't have the courage to show up to listen to the needs of his constituents again this week.

How are the people of this community EVER going to be heard -- when deals are being made under the table, and their councilman won't participate in the discussions??

[thelakelander]

Lakeland - you make some very good points and have educated me in many ways.  All of us in the neighborhood agree IN THEORY with the concept, but we want a voice, and we would like to see this scaled down from 900 to a more manageable number of residents - perhaps 300-350, higher end units.  The project is touted as "mixed use" yet with 90% residential, it hardly seems "mixed use" to me.  I would love to see this site become attractive and SUSTAINABLE.  We see a lot of pretty pictures on this board - does anyone have any that are 8-10 years old?  That's what we want to see - long-term viability, which means more than just a nice facade facing Philips.

Camden Ybor City was a 454-unit apartment complex built on an 8-acre site, about two blocks north of the future streetcar line (the streetcar line was under construction during this period).  After burning to the ground, during its construction in 2000, it was rebuilt and opened in 2001.


an image taken back in 2001.

In 2005, Camden sold the complex to Tarragon.  Tarragon converted the complex into condos.  Today, its called the Quarters of Ybor.  They are selling 1 bedroom condos now for $99k.

Escape to The Quarter's stylish resort-style swimming pool or walk to nearby restaurants and cafes. Step up to the ultimate experience in living at the hippest new condo in the city. Conveniences such as multi-level garage parking, street entrances, and attached quick-stop store enhance this dapper urban lifestyle. Other amenities include a huge second-story fitness center overlooking the sun-soaked pool area, business center, recreation room with billiards, bar, and movie theatre.

link: http://www.thequarteratybor.com







Here's a link to a PDF site plan of the Quarters.  Eight years ago I wasn't impressed because it took out my free parking spot for my night trips to Ybor, but the plan is urban, walkable and the street grid was respected.

http://www.thequarteratybor.com/site/PDFs/YBOR_SITEPLAN.pdf

[mtraininjax]

Littlepage ranting about Train Horn Noise, in today's 10/27 TU, anyone else really see this as an issue to debate?

A railroad track runs near the cabins at my Georgia hunt camp.

When a train comes by in the wee hours of the morning and blasts its horn, an interesting thing often happens.

Packs of coyotes commence to yipping and yapping, and create a ruckus that, if you've never heard it before, will send chills down your spine.

That and the train horn will certainly wake you up.

Pretty much the same thing happens when CSX and Florida East Coast Railway trains sound their horns - once, twice, three times - at intersections in Jacksonville's sleeping neighborhoods in the early morning hours.

In this case, those doing the howling are residents deprived of needed rest. (I can speak with authority because I'm one of them.)

A person continually making that kind of racket at 4 a.m. would be arrested for violating the city's noise ordinance.

But the railroads get away with it because, well, they are the railroads, and railroads get away with things.

Hope for sweet sleep, however, springs eternal.

According to a Times-Union news story, City Councilman Art Shad is going to explore giving the city the right to establish "quiet zones" on FEC tracks.

The city can already do that on CSX tracks but hasn't, which doesn't create a lot of confidence that anything will get done even if Shad is successful in getting the federal government to go along with the same rules for FEC.

The railroads argue that it's a safety issue, that the annoying horn blasts discourage motorists from trying to cross the tracks before the oncoming train smacks into them.

Sleep deprived, I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy for motorists who are dumb enough to ignore flashing red lights, clanging bells and a closed crossing gate in an attempt to save a little time.

There are federal requirements for establishing quiet zones, say from 10 p.m. until 6 a.m., when trains can't blast their horns on certain stretches of track.

One way is to install four-way gate systems or medians that would prevent motorists from going around a closed gate.

Another is to use directional horns at crossings that alert nearby drivers that a train is coming, not neighborhoods for miles around.

Those alternatives have been suggested for CSX tracks on the Westside for years, but the ideas have gone nowhere.

One reason is the expense. Another is CSX doesn't like quiet zones and, well, the railroads are the railroads and usually get what they want.

Hopefully, Shad will stick with establishing quiet zones on both FEC tracks, which run through his Southside district, and CSX tracks, which run through the Westside.

Other City Council members have talked a good game in the past, but then done nothing about it.

Maybe if we turned a pack of coyotes loose in their backyards, they would understand the need to finally get this done.

[BridgeTroll]

Great idea... but... I wonder if Littlepage knew there were trains and train crossings before he moved in?

[mtraininjax]

Ron lives down the street from me here in Avondale, and I've lived here for 10 years, and I sleep with windows open, and we just get used to them. Apparently he is not used to the coyotes yelping at his hunt camp in Georgia.