Metro Jacksonville Rail Plan Already Spurring Development?

[Intrepid]

just found out about this project a few months back and today driving
by notice the banner's on the fence along with  two prostitutes,a guy
selling crack to a guy on a bike and some sort of police sting at the
scottish inn which is just about daily and cars coming off 95 doing at
least 60 to 65 mph.this is going to be funny to watch how they work
all this out,not to mention the murders that have taken place a block
away inbetween westmont road and san diego road over the years.
great idea

[thelakelander]

Sounds like Columbia Heights in DC, ten years ago.   They put in a new metrorail station, a TOD popped up and now its a completely different scene.

Columbia Heights (before mass transit) - this place made Philips Highway look like San Marco.


Columbia Heights (with rail and transit oriented development) - if it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.


http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/340/116/

[JeffreyS]

I hope Lakeland never gets you back. Thanks Lake.

[thelakelander]

I can pull a lot more examples of rail systems helping redevelop rough areas of town.  Just down the street in Tampa, during the late 80s/early 90s, the Channel District was an area of town one would not want to be caught walking through at night.  The industrial district between 7th Avenue & Highway 60 in Ybor was pretty rough too.  The small line there has been a major catalyst in turning that area around also.  I have a ton of images from when I interned down there nine years ago, before the streetcar line opened.  One of these days I'll upload some of those old images to show before/after results.

[southerngirl]

Hey lakelander -- can you pull some shots of 6-story buildings so that folks can get a sense of how huge this thing will potentially be?  They're asking for height of 90'.

[thelakelander]

Hey lakelander -- can you pull some shots of 6-story buildings so that folks can get a sense of how huge this thing will potentially be?  They're asking for height of 90'.

Sure....

Fat City Lofts - infilll development in NoDa (North Davidson neighborhood in Charlotte, NC)


mixed used condo in Charlotte's Gateway District. (this looks to be slightly taller than 100')


Hilton Garden Inn (an infill hotel project in Savannah's historic district)


This infill Courtyard by Marriott, in Chattanooga, TN is around 90' high


An infill apartment complex, with street retail in Dilworth neighborhood (Charlotte, NC)


Piedmont Town Center (new development in suburban area of Charlotte, NC)


While the height will have a significant impact along Philips (which is a good thing, imo), it should not be viewable from the River Oaks neighborhood.  The reason it won't be viewable is because of FEC's 100' wide ROW.  As long as this heavy band of oaks remain in place, the view of a 90' structure setback from the property line will be blocked.

[tufsu1]

The other major project proposed in the area, East San Marco (which also abuts this neighborhood) will have around 6-8 stories in its main building

[Captain Zissou]

Kings Avenue Station has 8 stories and it does not look out of place or even very big.

[southerngirl]

If I remember correctly, East San Marco was originally going to be many stories tall, but it was redesigned to fit in the San Marco design plan, so it's planned to be much lower. Do I remember something about the current design plan involves graduated height? I dont' think it's now planned to be anywhere near six stories.

As to Jackson Square being a 6-story structure: my opinion -- this will be totally foreign, compared to neighboring structures and stick out big time. Kings Ave. Station is MUCH smaller than this (acreage-wise) and not in a neighborhood, so the scale isn't the same.

Lake -- based on the pics you posted of the 6-story developments, the people in our neighborhood will DEFINITELY have this as our eastern view. We are NOT that far away -- the Right of Way might look large, but it isn't. The tree height between FEC Park and this development is maybe 30' tops. These apartments will tower over the small neighborhoods nearby.

Hey, before I forget -- who mentioned they'd heard East San Marco was going to start up again, possibly as apartments now?  Anyone know more detail?

[thelakelander]

If I remember correctly, East San Marco was originally going to be many stories tall, but it was redesigned to fit in the San Marco design plan, so it's planned to be much lower. Do I remember something about the current design plan involves graduated height? I dont' think it's now planned to be anywhere near six stories.

East San Marco is still six stories.  They are setback, but not as far back as Jackson Square from the community west of the railroad tracks.







more East San Marco images: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/215/122/

As to Jackson Square being a 6-story structure: my opinion -- this will be totally foreign, compared to neighboring structures and stick out big time. Kings Ave. Station is MUCH smaller than this (acreage-wise) and not in a neighborhood, so the scale isn't the same.

At six stories, it would be the same height as East San Marco, which is in the heart of San Marco.  Kings Avenue Station is eight stories.  However, its more related to Jackson Square because both are on the edge of San Marco, as opposed to the heart.

Lake -- based on the pics you posted of the 6-story developments, the people in our neighborhood will DEFINITELY have this as our eastern view. We are NOT that far away -- the Right of Way might look large, but it isn't. The tree height between FEC Park and this development is maybe 30' tops. These apartments will tower over the small neighborhoods nearby.

Only if they were on a same line, located directly next to each other and if there were no trees in the yards of existing residences along River Oaks Road.  Once you add in the trees in the River Oaks yards, the 100' wide rail ROW, two dense rows of +30/40ft oaks, and the setback on Jackson Oak's property, a six story building won't be seen from that direction.

Hey, before I forget -- who mentioned they'd heard East San Marco was going to start up again, possibly as apartments now?  Anyone know more detail?

It was bought up during a general discussion with a former co-worker about a month or so ago.  I don't know the exact details, but to get it started back up, something will have to happen to the condo element.  With Prado Walk, developers chopped off the upper level condos of their project to move forward with the retail segment.  In Springfield, the Lofts on Main changed their entire concept from luxury condos to rental to move forward.  If East San Marco is going to move forward anytime soon, they'll have to take a similar path.

[SanMarcoResident]

There is so much more to consider regarding this project than just how the people on River Oaks will be affected, such as:

1. How is the local school system supposed to handle 900 new families?  Hendricks Ave. Elementary has several portables now because they are exceeding capacity.  Landon and Wolfson are overflowing as is.  What are we going to do for all these new students?

2. What is going to happen to this development in 5 years when the developer (Cypress) decides to sell it?  They aren't going to manage it forever, and then what? They will have made their money and left, and we will have to live with the remains.

3. Who the heck is going to live in these apartments?  They're going to be a bunch of cracker boxes crammed together on a street that has a seedy reputation, a loud train horn at all times of the day or night, overcrowded schools, unsafe surroundings, "hot sheet" motels right down the street, a juvenile center within a block, and a thriving criminal element? How many of  the people posting on this board who say Jackson Square (as proposed) is a good idea would live there?  How many of you would recommend it to your friends and family?

4. If River Oaks is closed, traffic will flow down the other residential streets (Lorimier, Brookwood, Dunsford, etc.) causing unsafe conditions for children and pets in these neighborhoods.  No one is going to pay for speed bumps down all these streets - and how is the neighborhood supposed to deal with all the extra traffic?

5. Although the residential plan is not HUD housing, it is very low-end. I saw advance advertisements for $700/mo.  Imagine 900 of these occupied!  Where will they all park?  What will happen when Cypress sells the property?  What is the plan for upkeep?  Bringing in low-income residents can only contribute to increased crime in the area - many will see our neighborhood as "easy pickings."  What happens of the majority of these apartments don't rent for $700/mo?  Will the developer keep lowering the rent until they can achieve the occupancy rate required for them to make money?

6. The JTA has NOT approved any form of transit project or station for this area.  When would it come?  This is not "Field of Dreams (if you build it, they will come).  It seems to me that the zoning should be applied for AFTER JTA has definite plans to build a transit station on this site. Then coordinate the effort.  The assumption is that because this will be zoned as Transit use, people who live here will not have cars, so only 1/2 the parking required is planned for.  WRONG-O.  People in Jacksonville are not used to mass transit and everyone has a car.  Even if you use mass transit to get to work, you still use your car to get to the mall, beach, movies, grocery store, etc.  And what do they do with their cars while they wait for the transit station?  Walk?  Let's be realistic!

San Marco residents are not snobs or elitists.  We're reasonable people who have chosen a lifestyle in one of Jacksonville's oldest and most charming areas.  We pay more per square foot for our homes than most in the city, we constantly work on repairing, upgrading and beautifying our homes, we have a love for the traditional style of the neighborhood and the small-town feel. This neighborhood is not only our home, it's our culture and lifestyle.  Neighbors all know each other and help each other, and most people live her very long term and pass their homes down to their children.  Our houses are not "real estate" or "property" to us - they're our home and our life. 

We definitely want to see improvement to that stretch of Philips Highway and do NOT want to block any type of progress that will improve our city.  No one wants to see the blight on Philips eliminated more than we do. We do not argue with commercial development on this property - heck, I bet we'd all love to see a Home Depot, Lowe's or something similar here.  Our objection is to cramming 900 families into cracker-box apartments, expecting them to find a place to park on the street, expecting them to put their children in portable classrooms, and expecting all of us to dodge them as they use our residential streets as cut-throughs when they're on their way to work.

Development - yes!  The RIGHT type of development - yes!  But let's look at this from the point of view of the people who will be affected most - the residents who go to bed at night with the hope that their neighborhood will be safe.  I believe we should have a louder voice than the people who merely drive by the site on their way to Wal-Mart or The Avenues.

[SanMarcoResident]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

And they'll be $700/month apartments at that. And, they're ON PHILIPS HWY.  Not in "San Marco."  They will be Philips Highway low-rent apartments.

This is the issue!  Too many people in too small a space. The developer is selling it to us like it will be luxury condos, when they are actually crackerbox apartments.

[JeffreyS]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

And they'll be $700/month apartments at that. And, they're ON PHILIPS HWY.  Not in "San Marco."  They will be Philips Highway low-rent apartments.

This is the issue!  Too many people in too small a space. The developer is selling it to us like it will be luxury condos, when they are actually crackerbox apartments.

So the people who rent these apartments with pools and expensive parking structures will be worse than the prostitutes, seedy motels and abandoned properties are now for neighborhood safety and values.

Once again with the argument that this development will drag Phillips Highway down hilarious.

[SanMarcoResident]

Can I just quickly insert a brief reality check on Jackson Sq vs. the lovely places you guys are showing/talking about in ATL and Orlando:

This development will mainly be 900 APARTMENTS.  Not lovely townhouses/condos like the Atlanta. In the PUD as it exists today, they're asking for a 90/10 split -- 90% apartments, 10% retail.   With that math -- this will ALL be about the apartments.

And they'll be $700/month apartments at that. And, they're ON PHILIPS HWY.  Not in "San Marco."  They will be Philips Highway low-rent apartments.

This is the issue!  Too many people in too small a space. The developer is selling it to us like it will be luxury condos, when they are actually crackerbox apartments.

So the people who rent these apartments with pools and expensive parking structures will be worse than the prostitutes, seedy motels and abandoned properties are now for neighborhood safety and values.

Once again with the argument that this development will drag Phillips Highway down hilarious.

Expensive parking structures and swimming pools will not magically "fix" the situation on Philips.  900 low-rent apartments are definitely not the answer.  In 5 years they could turn into more of the same thing as what we already have (except they will rent by the month, not the hour)

Why not put a Home Depot there instead, and a SMALLER amount of nicer upscale apartments (limit to 300).  Why do we need 900 crackerboxes on the border of a well-established, single-family home neighborhood.  There is no infrastructure for 900 families, their cars, their children, and their needs.

[SanMarcoResident]

Do you know that Jacksonville's rental market is currently at 80% occupancy?  And they just built an apartment complex on Atlantic and University.  Why do we need 900 more?  Does anyone honestly think they will be rented?  There are so many alternatives to choose from to rent rather than an apartment that is blasted by a train horn at all hours and down the street from "hot sheet" motels.  Who wants to raise their kids in that environment when there are plenty of other apartments to choose from?

So, if the developer doesn't get the occupancy levels they want, they'll have to lower the rent.  $700/month is already pretty low.  What if they go down to $500/mo?  What will we have then?  I don't think that will kill the blight in Philips, it will only contribute to it.  And the prostitutes will just have some new customers and drug dealers will have a park (FEC Park) to do business in. Cypress will be long gone trying to sell their next project to the unsuspecting public.