Mayor Brown wants $40 million more from JEA to pay pension obligation

[icarus]

I've been posting on, helped operate and have created forums like this since 2001.  Here's a Kenny Rodgers strategy I apply in situations like this:

"You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table,
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done."

You're involved in a situation where you're not going to convince the opposing side to understand or accept your point of view. Unless, you want to get deep into the back and forth, which will spiral out of control (it always does) and light years away from the original topic, just remember that most reading are intelligent enough to form their own opinions in these debates. For the intelligent who are truly interested in this issue, enough material has been exposed for them to do their own homework and research. IMO, your points, fieldafm's, etc. have already been eloquently presented.

Thanks for the advice Lake.  I pretty much tried to do that with my last post. And, I've tried to be as rational and unemotional as possible in my response to the name calling and emotional outbursts. I think if I were to participate any further here it would only serve the further denigration of the topic from its original subject.

You have to pick your battles and I agree that I think enough has already been said for a reasonable person to do their own homework and come to their own opinion.

As always, I look forward to hearing the rational opinions of other people on the topics posted on this board.

[icarus]

We get a utility committed to making changes and being responsive to the community it serves.
They've come a long way since the article from 2010 you quoted and they are still striving to be in the top quartile in service. See the quote and article below.

Following a lackluster report in 2012, JEA improved its customer satisfaction rating 51 index points in 2013, according to JD Power and Associates, an independent global marketing and research company. That makes JEA the most improved utility of any in the nation, ranking just above average nationally.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541462

[Tacachale]

To me, the real issue here has always been the mayor wanting JEA to fork over $40 million with no plan for where it will come from. Even if JEA needed work internally, just being told to pony up up money isn't going to get it done - it's simply going to make them cover it in some other way, either by raising rates (which no one wants) or service cuts (which no one wants either). Obviously I'm more in the camp of Icarus, Vic and Mike as far as JEA goes, but no matter what one thinks about JEA, this plan is weak.

[BridgeTroll]

I may actually be coming around to the Mayors plan and JEA's rate increase.  At least the rate increase will touch all users of the utility rather than a tax levied upon the local homeowners... 

[BridgeTroll]

Tacachale, I don't know if thats the real issue.  Is it?

And lets not get too focused on an actual issue as several of our posters have very tender and delicate feelings, and Bridge Troll is afraid that if even ONE poster disagrees with the Anti Brown sentiment, then well....  i can't imagine what he is afraid will happen. 

The money (and hundreds of millions more per year) should be coming from the JEA's inordinately fat profits.

What ever would you do without exaggeration...? 

[BridgeTroll]

Tacachale, I don't know if thats the real issue.  Is it?

And lets not get too focused on an actual issue as several of our posters have very tender and delicate feelings, and Bridge Troll is afraid that if even ONE poster disagrees with the Anti Brown sentiment, then well....  i can't imagine what he is afraid will happen. 

The money (and hundreds of millions more per year) should be coming from the JEA's inordinately fat profits.

What ever would you do without exaggeration...? 

Well I don't know.. Are you sure that your post isnt going to hurt my fragile frame of mind, bridge troll?  I mean if you are going to hurl these accusations of exaggeration at me, shouldnt I rightfully stomp off the forum and quit?

lol

Just trying to make sure that no group of five or six people gets ganged up on by ChrisW all by himself..  its not a fair fight you know.....that Chris is like Paul Bunyon after all.

Wouldnt want to be no forest with him around......nosirree!

Well you pretty much answered THAT question... I do thank you for that!

[BridgeTroll]

I suppose you have your reasons for hating the mayor but JEA says if they are compelled to pay 40 million more to the city they will have to raise rates to cover their obligations.  You and the Mayor may dismiss that... but the money has to come from somewhere...

[BridgeTroll]

I suppose you have your reasons for hating the mayor but JEA says if they are compelled to pay 40 million more to the city they will have to raise rates to cover their obligations.  You and the Mayor may dismiss that... but the money has to come from somewhere...

Well thats what the thread is about isnt it?

Our arrogant snot-nosed good for nothing mayor killing the beloved family pet.  right?

If you say so... 

[BridgeTroll]

I suppose you have your reasons for hating the mayor but JEA says if they are compelled to pay 40 million more to the city they will have to raise rates to cover their obligations.  You and the Mayor may dismiss that... but the money has to come from somewhere...

Well thats what the thread is about isnt it?

Our arrogant snot-nosed good for nothing mayor killing the beloved family pet.  right?

If you say so... 

Im just trying to find out which party line im supposed to agree with so that Im not confused.  Wouldnt want to have ChrisW come in and unleash the norse berzerker army----NObody wants that.  #unfairmassacres

We are all just waiting for you to show evidence of JEA Looting (your term) and why you would compare JEA to "Enronergy" (again your term).  We all have open minds and would love to look through the evidence.  Perhaps there is looting... perhaps JEA will someday be refered to as another Enronenergy.  But you claiminig it is so... does not make it so.
A respectful conversation is all anyone asks...

[JaxJagsFan69]

Easiest thing to do is an audit...that will answer some questions as well as clear or implicate JEA. But at least it's a start and then we go from there.

Just saying it can't hurt...unless things are found during the audit.

[Tacachale]

Tacachale, I don't know if thats the real issue.  Is it?

And lets not get too focused on an actual issue as several of our posters have very tender and delicate feelings, and Bridge Troll is afraid that if even ONE poster disagrees with the Anti Brown sentiment, then well....  i can't imagine what he is afraid will happen. 

The money (and hundreds of millions more per year) should be coming from the JEA's inordinately fat profits.

The news stories that kicked off the thread are about the mayor wanting to get another $40 million a year from JEA to put toward the pension. Neither story, or any others, indicate the mayor has any idea of where exactly the money would come from or what would keep JEA from just raising rates or cutting services cover it. Even if the JEA somehow had $40 million lying around, there's no indication they'd tap that rather than raising rates. In that case, it's just another case of the mayor making someone else raise taxes for him.

[ChriswUfGator]

We get a utility committed to making changes and being responsive to the community it serves.
They've come a long way since the article from 2010 you quoted and they are still striving to be in the top quartile in service. See the quote and article below.

Following a lackluster report in 2012, JEA improved its customer satisfaction rating 51 index points in 2013, according to JD Power and Associates, an independent global marketing and research company. That makes JEA the most improved utility of any in the nation, ranking just above average nationally.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541462

So they're the skinniest kid at fat camp? Impressive.

[BridgeTroll]

I suppose you have your reasons for hating the mayor but JEA says if they are compelled to pay 40 million more to the city they will have to raise rates to cover their obligations.  You and the Mayor may dismiss that... but the money has to come from somewhere...

Well thats what the thread is about isnt it?

Our arrogant snot-nosed good for nothing mayor killing the beloved family pet.  right?

If you say so... 

Im just trying to find out which party line im supposed to agree with so that Im not confused.  Wouldnt want to have ChrisW come in and unleash the norse berzerker army----NObody wants that.  #unfairmassacres

We are all just waiting for you to show evidence of JEA Looting (your term) and why you would compare JEA to "Enronergy" (again your term).  We all have open minds and would love to look through the evidence.  Perhaps there is looting... perhaps JEA will someday be refered to as another Enronenergy.  But you claiminig it is so... does not make it so.
A respectful conversation is all anyone asks...

Lol.  The only respect that counts is from the side you don't agree with (ChrisW apparently).  Everyone else can just say whatever kind of thing and its just self defense.  because #dangerousscarygiants....

And the difference between a negotiated amount of less than 5% and the statutorily possible amount of 20% isnt considered enough to start with?

Disagree with the terms "looting" and "enronenergy"with no proof?  Ya got me...

[icarus]

Stephen - I actually have done the math.  I've read the financial statements/annual reports for the last five years. I've looked at the trend upward in contributions to the City from JEA and even wondered why the contribution to the City in 2013 was over 50% of its operating income.

I looked at the balance sheet read the credit rating reports on JEA's and COJ's bond issues and despite the rather extensive analysis by third parties regarding the operational and financial performance of JEA .... I can't find hundreds of millions in cash that wasn't paid to COJ. Hell, I can't even find hundreds of millions in unencumbered cash, e.g. free to spend.

What I did find was over $6 billion in debt, a large part of which was accumulated after the purchase of water and sewer assets in 1997 and not helped by JEA's artificially maintaining reduced electric rates (lowest in state at the time).After a series of rate hikes in the last decade to try and right the listing financial ship at the utility (i.e. high debt burdens), JEA agreed in 2011 to not raise its base rate to consumers for a period of at least four years which it has stuck to while still maintaining and increasing the amount contributed to COJ.

In reviewing board minutes and reports from credit rating agencies, I also discovered that to help ease the debt service burden, JEA has made plans to fund all its capital requirements from operating cash flows and existing reserves, to the extent they exist, at least through fiscal year 2018.  This of course weighed significantly in the rating agencies maintenance of JEA's credit rating.

In examining the terms of existing bond issues of both JEA and COJ, I did have some serious concerns.  JEA's bond agreements require maintenance of certain debt service ratios and JEA's operating revenue has already been pledged as security to those bond issues.

What I find even more troubling is the COJ bond issues, specifically my analysis focused on the Series 2008a and 2008b capital project revenue bonds issued by COJ for $122.4 million.  It seems COJ has already pledged the contributions from JEA as security for this bond issue so its not even really clear to me that COJ has full authority to pledge or use additional money from JEA even if it found the pot of hundreds of millions of dollars that you arguments seem to presume exists.

Now, after over educating myself on JEA and COJ finances, I can truly make the educated opinion that I don't see any way that JEA can be saddled with a fixed contribution of $40m per year for the next 14 years and not have it adversely impact customer rates.

So, back to the original point of the thread for further emphasis, do I think Mayor Brown made even an educated guess as to the feasibility of his proposal before offering to stick JEA's finger in the pension fund dyke? ... No, I don't.  Which brings me to my original conclusion, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, its a duck or in this case a tax.

So, feel free to accuse JEA of being Enron, feel free to allege business with insiders and malfeasance by the administration and JEA officials as to missing funds, cash pools and not meeting legal requirements for contributing to COJ .... just offer up some real proof specifically facts .. better yet, if you have them, I suggest calling the economic crimes division of the State Attorney's Office and filing a report .. I'll even go with you and hold your hand ..... otherwise, feel free to make emotional pleas that JEA should be paying more .... because .. well, just because.

And, Chris, I felt my providing an article from 12/31/2013 showing the progress being made and the commitment from JEA's new executives to address past deficiencies was an excellent response to the post of a link to an anti-JEA website with no activity since the posting of a 2010 article on the same subject matter.  And, I'm glad my kid is the skinniest at fat camp (to use your crude metaphor) .. but maybe, I'm just glad to see one area of government working to make a difference.

[icarus]

Actually, Stephen, I relied more upon the independent analysis of Moody and Fitch rating agencies because I know you and Chris have already expressed reservations about the authenticity and reliability of JEA's reporting and of course Ernst and Young's audit thereof.  I really wanted to make sure my opinion was well researched and based on facts so I apologize if it is inconvenient that my conclusions mirror those reached by other parties especially if those of JEA and E&Y.

2013 Net Operating Income $157, 370,000
2013 Contribution to COJ     $106,687,000