A Multimodal Transportation Center for St. Augustine?

[thelakelander]

I kinda look at AAF and commuter rail as serving different markets.  AFF being more inter-city while commuter rail is serving more the Jax region.

I agree on the surface.  However, upon closer evaluation of how these systems may operate, I'm highly concerned.....and not in a good way.

1. Commuter rail is only going to making a few trips per day, meaning TOD opportunities will be limited outside of stations where there's frequent connectivity between other modes of transit. Overall, there's a possibility it generates less ridership than the Skyway does now partially due to it not having frequent enough service.

2. If BRT is going to run every 10-15 minutes down Philips between downtown and Avenues Mall, it will siphon riders off something that runs a block away with a max of only 4 to 6 trains per day. For example, if I'm downtown and need to get to any destination north of Avenues, I'm taking BRT instead of waiting at the station for another 45 minutes to catch a train taking me to the same spot. 

I just did something similar in Cleveland.  The Red Line's station in University Circle was closed the week I was there earlier this Summer, so I switched modes in downtown and took Health Line BRT to access my University Circle hotel.  Where I stayed, BRT was a 1/2 block away and the Red Line station was a two block walk.  If the Red Line station were open, my trips would have been mixed depending on the arrival of each mode at the nearest stops.

3. AAF's plans between Orlando and Miami call for trains running as frequent as each hour.  That's a headway that commuter rail won't be matching.  Thus, if there's an AAF St. Augustine stop and BRT is running every 15 minutes on Philips, the average rider has two viable higher frequency choices for that entire corridor (outside of the low density Northern St. Johns County stops).  At that rate, there's a great argument that Jax would be better served targeting improving transit on other corridors throughout town instead of adding a third mode between DT and St. Augustine.

That said, I know that it has been stated that BRT would have no affect on being able to get the Feds to fund commuter rail along Philips- I don't know that I agree.  I think BRT effectively ends that corridor as being a candidate for commuter rail.  The SW and North corridors are still viable options though.

This is my point 4. Good luck at winning federal dollars for commuter rail anytime soon if federal dollars are also used for BRT in this corridor.  The process for federal money is already competitive.  Double dipping on a corridor where ridership already won't be bustling (in comparison with others across the country competing for the same limited funds) will be difficult to pull off at best.

[thelakelander]

Perhaps if St. Augustine can get the center and AAF signals it's move towards Jax it will finally kill the Bad idea of BRT on Phillips.

I believe BRT would already be operating years before something like AAF would come online.  Also, haven't we already applied for federal money for BRT along Philips?

[cline]

3. AAF's plans between Orlando and Miami call for trains running as frequent as each hour.  That's a headway that commuter rail won't be matching.  Thus, if there's an AAF St. Augustine stop and BRT is running every 15 minutes on Philips, the average rider has two viable higher frequency choices for that entire corridor (outside of the low density Northern St. Johns County stops).  At that rate, there's a great argument that Jax would be better served targeting improving transit on other corridors throughout town instead of adding a third mode between DT and St. Augustine.

Good point.  I guess I was just going under the assumption that AAF would not be operating 1 hr headways to Jax.  If that's the case then yes, commuter rail would not be able to compete in that corridor.

I know that the commuter rail study is ongoing but I really feel that the SW corridor would be the ideal starter line.  Just seems like it has the characteristics to attract decent ridership.  High employment locations (NAS Jax, DT), traffic constraints on 17 and Blanding, etc.

[thelakelander]

^I feel the same way.  I think what complicates the situation is FEC is more willing than CSX to discuss passenger rail on their tracks.  Nevertheless, from the outside looking in, it would seem that flat out acquiring the A Line from CSX would be the proper play for the SW Corridor.

[cline]

^I feel the same way.  I think what complicates the situation is FEC is more willing than CSX to discuss passenger rail on their tracks.  Nevertheless, from the outside looking in, it would seem that flat out acquiring the A Line from CSX would be the proper play for the SW Corridor.

That would be ideal but do you think its feasible?  That would only leave a small portion of CSX owned track between GCS or Palatka (wherever commuter rail ends) down to Deland.  CSX might not be "on board" with that idea.  Maybe we should just print a bunch of money and just buy the whole line all the way down to Deland and connect it to Sunrail.

[thelakelander]

Feasible?  Depending on acquisition cost and how much of the corridor is purchased, I'm not sure.  I just believe it's an option that should be explored. There may be some value in the line that we could be overlooking by focusing on passenger rail, which could result in finding additional revenue streams and partnerships.

[spuwho]

Site #6 seems like a really odd location.

It has two prime things going for it.

It isn't very busy on that spur (the former Palatka Main Line). Land is cheap there.

A yard to store commuter cars overnight could easily be placed there w/o obstructing main line freight traffic.  A parking garage could be built near the West Augustine retail center, which could spur much needed redevelopment in the that retail corridor.

And you can bet that the existing tour buses that ply the city center would love to make a pit stop there to pick up tourists.

I agree that it isn't ideal, but it appears to have a purpose.

[tufsu1]

I don't see how they city would not push for the Carrera St.  location.  St Aug. is one of the only walkable tourist cities that could be that closely served by rail in the state.

the big problem here is its virtually all wet

[tufsu1]

to the discussion between cline and Lake...

AAF is running 1 hour headways between Miami and Orlando...but has been clear that, even with stops in Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm Beach, they do not see their service as competition with TriRail...they will charge more

It is kind of similar to when I lived in Philly...I could take Amtrak to NYC for about $30....or take SEPTA (Philly commuter rail) to Trenton and then NJ Transit to NYC for about $15...as a college student I went with the cheaper option even though the trip took a bit longer