Kicking Out the Homeless in Downtown Columbia, South Carolina

[strider]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

There are programs and there are organizations that do it but in my experience, they cost way more than they should.  Frankly, if things like a modern rooming house was allowed and used, many more homeless could be helped. Unfortunately, the rooming house/ boarding house concept is much maligned these days and not understood by today's society.

[NotNow]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

That sounds like it is what we need icarus.  Are there any working examples?

[NotNow]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

There are programs and there are organizations that do it but in my experience, they cost way more than they should.  Frankly, if things like a modern rooming house was allowed and used, many more homeless could be helped. Unfortunately, the rooming house/ boarding house concept is much maligned these days and not understood by today's society.

Please explain what is not understood.

[Bridges]

Gotcha  but my response was more aimed at the latter comments. Those are actually stereotypes of 1970's homeless. As a matter of fact, in 8 years with Jacksonville not one person ever publicly stated that removing homeless would lessen crime or that homelessness contributes to crime, which you stated but I don't believe anyone here even mentioned that because it isn't a major factor. I don't feel anyone "freaks out" about the homeless more than any other cause. It is a problem, but its a problem everywhere. And those whom are attempting to help are not approaching it with a "fix everything" mentality, they approach it with a "if you would like help, I'm here" mentality.

****

Good find on that article, seems to be politics as usual. Nice to see Jacksonville isn't the only place with inept council-mayor-resident relations.

I've been participating in the Jax 2025 subcommittee to address homelessness. I can give you some of the stats used later, but a relatively small number of homeless people make up a disproportionately high percentage of crime in Downtown Jax. Chief Ayoub (Zone 1) is happy to speak about it with interested parties.

Do you have info on recidivism from JSO? I once heard the director of the jail speak about the repeat offenders they get from the homeless population and the numbers are staggering. Basically there are about 10-25 really bad seeds that get arrested a ton and cost the city and JSO quite a bit of money yearly. I can't remember if the bad seeds get arrested 20 times a year or 20 times in their life, but it was definitely eye opening.

I've also heard it speculated that some of these bad seeds are dumped here by other cities, similar to what Simms posted in San Fran (although a different type of homeless).

Since others have given stats that seem other than "staggering", I have to ask, what crimes are we talking about here?  Peeing in public? When we do background checks on the guys we deal with, the vast majority of "crimes" have to do with what many consider "social crimes".  In other words, peeing in public, public intoxication and basic loitering or trespassing. Driving without a license is in there too, after the prerequisite DUI.  Of course, there are lots of buying and doing drugs maybe the taking a six pack of beer or a loaf of bread in there as well.  Even if the repeat offenders are a "staggering" number by percentage, we are not talking about major crimes here.  Let's not go over the top with a "staggering" amount of bold type to create a "staggering" amount of hype.  Provide the facts and go from there.

A lot of the crimes are misdemeanors (i.e. public urination, public intoxication).

JSO has been working hand and hand with several shelters and are currently rolling out a program to deal with the recidivism rate of the worst offenders.  Most of these offenders have mental or substance abuse problems that either have them kicked out of most shelters, or they are unwilling to be in shelters. 

The cost for processing an individual in the jail is roughly $870.  As you can imagine, any affect the new program will have on the reduction of processing will be very helpful.

[Bridges]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

There are programs and there are organizations that do it but in my experience, they cost way more than they should.  Frankly, if things like a modern rooming house was allowed and used, many more homeless could be helped. Unfortunately, the rooming house/ boarding house concept is much maligned these days and not understood by today's society.

There are great organizations that work with transitional housing.  While inventory of available housing is always an issue, it is not the main issue.  Jobs are the one thing holding back the transitional housing.  You can't move someone to housing if they are still suffering from the issues that pushed them into homelessness in the first place. 

[CityLife]

Gotcha  but my response was more aimed at the latter comments. Those are actually stereotypes of 1970's homeless. As a matter of fact, in 8 years with Jacksonville not one person ever publicly stated that removing homeless would lessen crime or that homelessness contributes to crime, which you stated but I don't believe anyone here even mentioned that because it isn't a major factor. I don't feel anyone "freaks out" about the homeless more than any other cause. It is a problem, but its a problem everywhere. And those whom are attempting to help are not approaching it with a "fix everything" mentality, they approach it with a "if you would like help, I'm here" mentality.

****

Good find on that article, seems to be politics as usual. Nice to see Jacksonville isn't the only place with inept council-mayor-resident relations.

I've been participating in the Jax 2025 subcommittee to address homelessness. I can give you some of the stats used later, but a relatively small number of homeless people make up a disproportionately high percentage of crime in Downtown Jax. Chief Ayoub (Zone 1) is happy to speak about it with interested parties.

Do you have info on recidivism from JSO? I once heard the director of the jail speak about the repeat offenders they get from the homeless population and the numbers are staggering. Basically there are about 10-25 really bad seeds that get arrested a ton and cost the city and JSO quite a bit of money yearly. I can't remember if the bad seeds get arrested 20 times a year or 20 times in their life, but it was definitely eye opening.

I've also heard it speculated that some of these bad seeds are dumped here by other cities, similar to what Simms posted in San Fran (although a different type of homeless).

Since others have given stats that seem other than "staggering", I have to ask, what crimes are we talking about here?  Peeing in public? When we do background checks on the guys we deal with, the vast majority of "crimes" have to do with what many consider "social crimes".  In other words, peeing in public, public intoxication and basic loitering or trespassing. Driving without a license is in there too, after the prerequisite DUI.  Of course, there are lots of buying and doing drugs maybe the taking a six pack of beer or a loaf of bread in there as well.  Even if the repeat offenders are a "staggering" number by percentage, we are not talking about major crimes here.  Let's not go over the top with a "staggering" amount of bold type to create a "staggering" amount of hype.  Provide the facts and go from there.

A lot of the crimes are misdemeanors (i.e. public urination, public intoxication).

JSO has been working hand and hand with several shelters and are currently rolling out a program to deal with the recidivism rate of the worst offenders.  Most of these offenders have mental or substance abuse problems that either have them kicked out of most shelters, or they are unwilling to be in shelters. 

The cost for processing an individual in the jail is roughly $870.  As you can imagine, any affect the new program will have on the reduction of processing will be very helpful.

Yea obviously these aren't people committing serious crimes or they wouldn't be getting arrested 25 times a year or whatever it is. Mostly drunk and disorderly, assaults, petty theft, urinating in public type stuff. The "staggering" point that Strider didn't seem to quite catch was the cost JSO and the city have to pay to deal with the issue. Its not just the cost to process them at the jail, but also the hours JSO wastes arresting, transporting, and writing reports.

Strider, do you know these figures? Because if you don't, you can't exactly comment on whether or not they are staggering. Like I said, its been a few years since I heard the presentation from JSO, but everyone's jaw dropped in the room when they heard them (which is why I asked for them).  I believe it was in the million plus range, just for the worst 20 or so offenders, and I don't think that included medical care.

[NotNow]

I apologize to the original poster for StephenDare!'s insistence that we stray from the original subject. 

My original point stands as to the desire of many that we not provide disincentives to individual freedom.

And I apologize that the homeless provided an entrance for seditious anti tax nonsense from Notnow.

Are we all blessed by the apologies now?

I have made no "anti-tax" statements.  I simply pointed out that government taxes, by their very nature, are forced reallocation of resources from one individual citizen to another.   That fact can not be argued.  Where do you get "seditious" or "anti-tax" from that?

yawn,  So does that make police forces the symbol and delivery system of totalitarianism, not now?

After all, who is holding all of the guns when these taxes are being force collected from the virtuous few?

Geez Dare!, get over it.  Personal attacks?  Really?  Forget about it if you just can't accept it.  Join in the conversation and listen to others for a change.  You don't always HAVE to be right you know.

[NotNow]

Oh come on.  Why bring this up:

"yawn,  So does that make police forces the symbol and delivery system of totalitarianism, not now?

After all, who is holding all of the guns when these taxes are being force collected from the virtuous few?"

It is simply an attack on my profession and you know it. 

You are simply making up the rest of your argument.  None of your statement:

'You seem to think that there is only one way to view things in a democratic society.  The one in which you don't have to pay taxes, even though you use the services provided by those same tax dollars."

is true.  I have made no such claim.  None of my posts in this thread say any such thing. 

As for "logical conclusions", you have come to none.  My posts are simply stated.  I have no idea why you can not admit when you are wrong or why you feel the need to falsely state the views of others so that you can then proceed to counter your own misleading statements.  In the future, if you would quote which of my arguments (directly from my posts) that you are arguing against, perhaps you could stay on point. 

[NotNow]

And what does that have to do with this discussion?

I am waiting for you to explain why you called my original comments "seditious".  Of course you can not.  My original comment that taxes are taken from citizens by force has been verified without question.  Your attempt to make my statement out to be "anti-tax" are without merit and you can not point out a quote which would prove your point.  You are simply "reaching" for something and arguing for the sake of argument...to the detriment of both the conversation and your credibility. 

Now, do you have something useful to add to this discussion or not?

[JayBird]

Not to nitpick, but there are clearly two vastly different conversations going on here. Could someone please enlighten me to the guidelines that get some comments split off to their own thread by MJ moderators? Because I believe this tax conversation, though deserving discussion, has gotten to the point where it no longer belongs here. Thank you.

[NotNow]

Don't worry about it.  I am through attempting to talk with StephenDare!.  I should have known better.  Please continue the thread. 

[JayBird]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

There are programs and there are organizations that do it but in my experience, they cost way more than they should.  Frankly, if things like a modern rooming house was allowed and used, many more homeless could be helped. Unfortunately, the rooming house/ boarding house concept is much maligned these days and not understood by today's society.

Please explain what is not understood.

Speaking if such programs in Jacksonville, this released today from the T-U

Chase has awarded a $20,000 grant to Ability Housing of Northeast Florida.

The grant was designated for the nonprofit's Villages Program, which develops and operates multi-family rental properties for the homeless, those at risk of homelessness and adults with a disability, according to a news release.

Ability Housing has developed the multi-family Mayfair Village Apartments, Renaissance Village Apartments and Oakland Terrace Apartments for a total of 195 units. In addition, the nonprofit has 60 single-family units that are reserved for adults with disabilities who wish to live independently and formerly homeless individuals.

"There remains a tremendous need in Northeast Florida for affordable rental housing," said Shannon Nazworth, executive director of Ability Housing. "We are extremely grateful to Chase for their assistance. This will help us to continue to identify, purchase and renovate communities and help families in crisis escape homelessness."

Last year, Chase gave more than $6 million to Florida nonprofits that support affordable housing, workforce development and accessible education.

http://m.jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400721/beth-cravey/2013-08-28/housing-program-homeless-disabled-gets-financial-boost

For more information, go to abilityhousing.org.

[icarus]

Well, I am afraid i didn't do a very good job of explaining what I meant and I think it falls somewhere between what Strider is discussing and the housing proposed by Ability.

When looking at the problem, you unfortunately have to categorize the people in need:

1) Chronic homeless ( disabled, mental health issues, or etc.)
2) Those caught in a cycle .. periods of homelessness coupled with periods of not
3) Temporary (hopefully) homeless .. loss of job, loss of home(foreclosure), medical issues

Sulzbacher and Clara White do fantastic work but provide for the most part a one size fits all service.  I have seen other areas provide dorm style housing (adult only) combined with studio or small apartments for families in "transition."  These facilities are often the first step in the process and serve as an induction process to identify and classify for purposes of determining the best way(services) to help them move on. They often have residential in upper floors with services such as daycare and job placement on the lower floors.  The idea being able to provide the assistance especially to transitional families to get employment and get back on their feet.

The next step is non-clustered subsidized housing, i.e. not the fenced in compound and govt. style housing of yester years.  The idea being to provide only the subsidies and services to these families they require to fully integrate with the community.  There are plenty of case studies and experiences from other areas that show such a holistic approach is much more efficient but also greatly reduces the numbers of repeat homeless.

From a security and crime standpoint, it helps identify at those at risk and those individuals with lingering health or mental issues.  Treating the problem before it rears itself in the form of crime and or panhandling is always preferable.

The idea of segregation, camps or otherwise relocation of homeless is just another step down a road of failed policy.

the problem is that many of the organizations charged with affordable housing in Jacksonville are reluctant to build or otherwise lead housing projects of this type or to provide any rental housing such as Strider might be referring to.

[strider]

City Life, the original "staggering" seemed to refer to the sheer numbers of people and crimes but then the last post and comment said it referred to the COST of processing and housing those offenders. Two different things and I will agree the costs involved could be surprising if not staggering.  But that is most likely the result of the system we have and perhaps just the way it is.  Unless something can be done on the other side, the enforcement of the "social" and petty crimes will always be higher than what we would like to imagine.  Things like day centers and better, more financially responsible programs should help with those costs though.

[strider]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

There are programs and there are organizations that do it but in my experience, they cost way more than they should.  Frankly, if things like a modern rooming house was allowed and used, many more homeless could be helped. Unfortunately, the rooming house/ boarding house concept is much maligned these days and not understood by today's society.

Please explain what is not understood.

Mention rooming houses and most people immediately think of a slumlord operated, water only, rat infested dive lived in by drug addicts and the like.  They have forgotten or don't know that the rooming house and boarding house was once one of the few honorable businesses a single woman could own and operate.  In fact, Gloria's distant-great aunt that was the first woman to graduate from Wisconsin's state college made her living and put her daughter through college with a rooming house.  Single men once moved out on their own into boarding houses as they still then had someone to cook and often clean for them.  Besides, there were no McDonald's back then. And they often served as a surrogate family for many who had no one else or were new to a city.   As our society started wanting separate bathrooms and the like, rooming house lost favor.  Eventually, like the old neighborhoods they were in, they fell on bad times.  Today, I think a modern, low density rooming house could be a great substitute for the temporary housing often used today because a single room apartment is at a higher cost (federal guidelines may require it though).  However, you cannot open a new rooming house or boarding house anywhere in Jacksonville today and the ones that are still open are often under attack, sometimes for good reasons, but mostly just because the poorer among us use them.