Kicking Out the Homeless in Downtown Columbia, South Carolina

[JayBird]

^but it is still our individual choice. I have yet to see my accountant pull out a .357 and force me to file, though being that he weighs 90lbs soaken wet and has glasses like Hubble telescope that would be comical. Just because the consequences of a decision may be unsatisfactory, does that mean that we do not have the choice?

[CityLife]

Gotcha  but my response was more aimed at the latter comments. Those are actually stereotypes of 1970's homeless. As a matter of fact, in 8 years with Jacksonville not one person ever publicly stated that removing homeless would lessen crime or that homelessness contributes to crime, which you stated but I don't believe anyone here even mentioned that because it isn't a major factor. I don't feel anyone "freaks out" about the homeless more than any other cause. It is a problem, but its a problem everywhere. And those whom are attempting to help are not approaching it with a "fix everything" mentality, they approach it with a "if you would like help, I'm here" mentality.

****

Good find on that article, seems to be politics as usual. Nice to see Jacksonville isn't the only place with inept council-mayor-resident relations.

I've been participating in the Jax 2025 subcommittee to address homelessness. I can give you some of the stats used later, but a relatively small number of homeless people make up a disproportionately high percentage of crime in Downtown Jax. Chief Ayoub (Zone 1) is happy to speak about it with interested parties.

Do you have info on recidivism from JSO? I once heard the director of the jail speak about the repeat offenders they get from the homeless population and the numbers are staggering. Basically there are about 10-25 really bad seeds that get arrested a ton and cost the city and JSO quite a bit of money yearly. I can't remember if the bad seeds get arrested 20 times a year or 20 times in their life, but it was definitely eye opening.

I've also heard it speculated that some of these bad seeds are dumped here by other cities, similar to what Simms posted in San Fran (although a different type of homeless).

[sheclown]

I have been involved with helping the homeless for over a decade here in Jacksonville and let me tell you people do freakl out about them. I have the tire tracks up and down my back to prove it

I guess it depends on perception. Some might say the preservationists freak out, others will say RAP freaks out, and yet there are those that say the Beaches freak out over city decisions. The bottom line, those are stereotypes that can be proven inaccurate by simply visiting the programs in Jax, walking the streets and then comparing the statistical data with that of other cities. Homelessness is not an epidemic in Jacksonville, yet those outside of the loop believe it is.

Wow.  You and I are having a tough time with this.  I'm not saying that the non-profits freak out about homelessness or the problem, I'm saying that people freak out when they see a homeless person, needlessly.  And that the homeless are made a target, unfairly.

I'm quite sure we are on the same side on this issue.

[JayBird]

^ aaaah forgive me MY misinterpretation. That could very well be true, I have never witnessed that, but it does make sense. Scared of the boogie man or something. Sorry, that was my bad I was applying it to the conversation on this board, not people in general. Though, one would think after just about everyone cane close to losing their homes over the past 5 years, or at least began to wonder, that they would be more sympathetic. But that may be my naivety shining through LoL. We are good, and thank you for making me look at it from another angle

[NotNow]

so taxes are done at gunpoint?

Ummm, yes.  we are all forced to pay income taxes.  For those of us that are required to pay, the alternative is prison.  If you refuse to go to prison, you will be forced to go...at gunpoint if necessary. 

Didn't you know that?

Actually, please cite this law.  And don't conflate the issue with fraudulent returns.

USC, Title 26. 

[NotNow]

And now your explanation?

[NotNow]

Once again, StephenDare!, you are wrong.  And your proclivity for exaggeration remains.  I have quoted the federal tax code for you, and now you are not able to explain your own claim of "sedition".  I await your apology. 

[NotNow]

26 USC § 7203 - Willful failure to file return, supply information, or pay tax


Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. In the case of any person with respect to whom there is a failure to pay any estimated tax, this section shall not apply to such person with respect to such failure if there is no addition to tax under section 6654 or 6655 with respect to such failure. In the case of a willful violation of any provision of section 6050I, the first sentence of this section shall be applied by substituting "felony" for "misdemeanor" and "5 years" for "1 year".

___________________________________________________________________________________________

As usual, I have to do all of the work for you.  I await an apology and your explanation for your charge of "sedition".

[NotNow]

I apologize to the original poster for StephenDare!'s insistence that we stray from the original subject. 

My original point stands as to the desire of many that we not provide disincentives to individual freedom.

[NotNow]

USC 26, 7203

Any person required under this title to pay any estimated tax or tax, or required by this title or by regulations made under authority thereof to make a return, keep any records, or supply any information, who willfully fails to pay such estimated tax or tax, make such return, keep such records, or supply such information, at the time or times required by law or regulations, shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $25,000 ($100,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. In the case of any person with respect to whom there is a failure to pay any estimated tax, this section shall not apply to such person with respect to such failure if there is no addition to tax under section 6654 or 6655 with respect to such failure. In the case of a willful violation of any provision of section 6050I, the first sentence of this section shall be applied by substituting "felony" for "misdemeanor" and "5 years" for "1 year".

___________________________________________________________________________________________

As usual, I have to do all of the work for you.  I await an apology and your explanation for your charge of "sedition".

you have done the work for me, thank you.  There is no death penalty for non payment of taxes.  This was a false statement. There is no provision for collecting taxes at the point of a gun.  That was a false statement.

Now the question is, which high school taught you otherwise?

That's cute.  And not unexpected.  I have proven my statement that we are forced to pay taxes at the threat of arrest.  The threat of arrest includes the use of force. 

I am sorry to see that you do not really wish to engage in discussion.  I had hoped that you would offer a real contribution to the discussion.  It is obvious to all that you can not explain your use of the word "seditious" in reference to my comments, and of course that we all are in fact , forced to pay our federal income taxes. 

I remain interested in any useful discussion, but simply refusing to acknowledge facts does not forward the conversation.

[NotNow]

I apologize to the original poster for StephenDare!'s insistence that we stray from the original subject. 

My original point stands as to the desire of many that we not provide disincentives to individual freedom.

And I apologize that the homeless provided an entrance for seditious anti tax nonsense from Notnow.

Are we all blessed by the apologies now?

I have made no "anti-tax" statements.  I simply pointed out that government taxes, by their very nature, are forced reallocation of resources from one individual citizen to another.   That fact can not be argued.  Where do you get "seditious" or "anti-tax" from that?   

[NotNow]

Returning to the thread, I don't like these comparisons with past evils (slavery, Hitler, the civil war, etc.), they are detrimental to the discussion.  I do believe that a system which provides for BASIC needs while simultaneously providing incentives for self improvement and disincentives for failing to progress would help in our fight to prevent a permanent underclass.  There will always be a small percentage of citizens who will require a lifetime of varying amounts of assistance due to mental or physical disability, but  for those needing help by circumstance let's encourage and yes, insist on self determination.

[strider]

Returning to the thread, I don't like these comparisons with past evils (slavery, Hitler, the civil war, etc.), they are detrimental to the discussion.  I do believe that a system which provides for BASIC needs while simultaneously providing incentives for self improvement and disincentives for failing to progress would help in our fight to prevent a permanent underclass.  There will always be a small percentage of citizens who will require a lifetime of varying amounts of assistance due to mental or physical disability, but  for those needing help by circumstance let's encourage and yes, insist on self determination.

I'm not sure where someone made the comparison to Hitler, etc, but one thing I do know is that we need to be reminded of the past to help insure we do not make nor allow the same mistakes over and over again.  At least that is the goal.  Relocation camps like recently suggested for here in Jax and the idea now being floated in Columbia have a very checked past even when looking at things done in this country for what many thought were positive reasons.

Yes, the goal is that those who can, should help themselves as they are able to.  A hand up is what should be offered, they must take that hand and be willing to do the work that comes after. Some can and do, many simply can not and a few don't want to.

[icarus]

I've done a lot of volunteer work with affordable housing and mixed income housing, i.e. mixing affordable/assisted housing units in with market rate.

I've always been disappointed that Jacksonville has not been more progressive in adopting a transitional model and the housing stock to go with it.  the idea being that we provide the care and assistance an individual needs now but have a system in place to transition them to being able to sustain themselves, i.e. education, job search, day care, etc.

[strider]

Gotcha  but my response was more aimed at the latter comments. Those are actually stereotypes of 1970's homeless. As a matter of fact, in 8 years with Jacksonville not one person ever publicly stated that removing homeless would lessen crime or that homelessness contributes to crime, which you stated but I don't believe anyone here even mentioned that because it isn't a major factor. I don't feel anyone "freaks out" about the homeless more than any other cause. It is a problem, but its a problem everywhere. And those whom are attempting to help are not approaching it with a "fix everything" mentality, they approach it with a "if you would like help, I'm here" mentality.

****

Good find on that article, seems to be politics as usual. Nice to see Jacksonville isn't the only place with inept council-mayor-resident relations.

I've been participating in the Jax 2025 subcommittee to address homelessness. I can give you some of the stats used later, but a relatively small number of homeless people make up a disproportionately high percentage of crime in Downtown Jax. Chief Ayoub (Zone 1) is happy to speak about it with interested parties.

Do you have info on recidivism from JSO? I once heard the director of the jail speak about the repeat offenders they get from the homeless population and the numbers are staggering. Basically there are about 10-25 really bad seeds that get arrested a ton and cost the city and JSO quite a bit of money yearly. I can't remember if the bad seeds get arrested 20 times a year or 20 times in their life, but it was definitely eye opening.

I've also heard it speculated that some of these bad seeds are dumped here by other cities, similar to what Simms posted in San Fran (although a different type of homeless).

Since others have given stats that seem other than "staggering", I have to ask, what crimes are we talking about here?  Peeing in public? When we do background checks on the guys we deal with, the vast majority of "crimes" have to do with what many consider "social crimes".  In other words, peeing in public, public intoxication and basic loitering or trespassing. Driving without a license is in there too, after the prerequisite DUI.  Of course, there are lots of buying and doing drugs maybe the taking a six pack of beer or a loaf of bread in there as well.  Even if the repeat offenders are a "staggering" number by percentage, we are not talking about major crimes here.  Let's not go over the top with a "staggering" amount of bold type to create a "staggering" amount of hype.  Provide the facts and go from there.