My Afternoon Walk Along Hogans Creek

[Mathew1056]

I was enjoying reading this thought provoking thread until I read the sentence, courtesy of BACKINJAX05,
"And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics..."

Are you ingnorant, poorly informed, or just a partisan hack? Are you saying Mayor brown inhereited a city budget with surpluses as far as the eye could see, but somehow immediately plunged us into defecit? For Christ's sake, like Obama he inherited a complete cluster f%%k of an economic situation, and has been more truthful and creative in his budgetary problem solving than previous Mayor's Peyton and Delaney combined.

I'm not here to criticize the mayor on his handling of budget issues. It's a difficult task, I'm sure. His title and his leadership could be used on the park issue, though. Relatively little money is required, most of it going to lighting under the bridges. Fixing the few things I suggested could have a huge impact on the community. If he wants to be seen as the mayor that turn downtown around he needs to take up opportunities that could have large political payoffs. Personally, I could use some positive action from Alvin after being burned by him on 2012-296. You know, the bill that would have offered me protections. A full council hall and not a peep out of the mayor's office. All I'm saying Music Man is  the he isn't perfect, no one is. You have to play the hand you are dealt.

[Bill Hoff]

And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx

Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes


Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09

Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.

[tufsu1]

It was Alvin who decided to cut the tax rate on top of the massive cuts in state spending, not John Boehner, the unpopular Reoublican Speaker of the US House.

to be fair, Mayor Brown didn't cut the tax rate....he just refused to increase the rate to offset declining property valuers.

[fieldafm]

And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx

Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes


Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09

Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.

The Friends of Hogans Creek Greenway Facebook page mentioned earlier includes several people on this board, and we did apply for a grant (along with various other partners including Riverkeeper, JUMSRI, Sulzbacher, Transform Jax, etc) with SPAR being the applicant not too long ago to create exactly the kind of clearing house that is needed to coordinate all the various money sources (BJP, CIP, ACOE) with the proper entities (SJRMD, Public Works, FDOE, etc) to finally make real headway, as Bill mentions (and was very helfpul with).  Unfortunately we were not awarded the grant.

The Mayor could have appointed Bill Killingsworth to be this person and make this a City led effort instead of being adminsitered by a non profit, but the Administration valued his services differently than.... well, everyone else in this town does.

[strider]

And here a plan that indicates a 12ft path was funded for FY 08/09:
http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/dtactionplanfinalpdf121807.aspx

Hogan’s Creek Improve Connections from the Emerald Necklace to the River and Upland Activity Nodes


Construct - Phase I of Hogan’s Creek Greenway is the design and construction of a 12 foot wide multi-purpose path (funded), lighting, pavilions, landscaping, tables, benches, and trash receptacles along the east side of Hogan’s Creek from 8th Street to Market Street.
FY 08/09

Environmental issues are the reported reason why this has not been achieved yet. That, and the agencies involved don't coordinate with eachother. It simply hasn't been a priority for COJ, thus the plan and funds sit collecting dust.

The Friends of Hogans Creek Greenway Facebook page mentioned earlier includes several people on this board, and we did apply for a grant (along with various other partners including Riverkeeper, JUMSRI, Sulzbacher, Transform Jax, etc) with SPAR being the applicant not too long ago to create exactly the kind of clearing house that is needed to coordinate all the various money sources (BJP, CIP, ACOE) with the proper entities (SJRMD, Public Works, FDOE, etc) to finally make real headway, as Bill mentions (and was very helfpul with).  Unfortunately we were not awarded the grant.

The Mayor could have appointed Bill Killingsworth to be this person and make this a City led effort instead of being adminsitered by a non profit, but the Administration valued his services differently than.... well, everyone else in this town does.

To whom was the grant application made?  Can you explain why a volunteer organization could not accomplish what is needed?  In other words, why was the grant needed to accomplish the goals and what else can be done to get it done?   

[kreger]

Now that Alvin has found extra money for mowing, etc. I hope he invests in our urban core parks. I am a little puzzled about the Northside getting a brand new park when the city can't seem to keep our very own central park up.

[iloveionia]

It is beyond my scope of understanding why a city can not take care of properly it's own parks.  There are many facets of Jax I find to be uncivilized and it is perplexing to say the least.  It is a city with great potential hitting it square in the face, yet progression and forethought seem to lack completely.  I think if I lived there year round I'd go bonkers with all the backasswards politics.

In the meantime, what can be done?  Does that park interest/volunteer group still exist mentioned above?  Money makes the world go round but I agree that a small group of passionate, dedicated people can "make it happen." 

[BackinJax05]

I was enjoying reading this thought provoking thread until I read the sentence, courtesy of BACKINJAX05,
"And with the city going broke thanks to Alvinomics..."

Are you ingnorant, poorly informed, or just a partisan hack? Are you saying Mayor brown inhereited a city budget with surpluses as far as the eye could see, but somehow immediately plunged us into defecit? For Christ's sake, like Obama he inherited a complete cluster f%%k of an economic situation, and has been more truthful and creative in his budgetary problem solving than previous Mayor's Peyton and Delaney combined.

Aww, whats wrong, MusicMan? Didn't like the thoughts I provoked? 

[triclops i]

what will happen if they dredged the whole creek? Common sense tells me that would help alot.

[thelakelander]

When it actually resolved flooding in the area, it had a few large reservoirs to hold water.  They can be seen in this image on either side of Boulevard. For some reason, we figured we could fill those in and nothing would happen as a result.

[simms3]

Alvin was elected by Jacksonville's most elite and wealthy businessmen and philanthropists.  How he cannot leverage these relationships and continue to use his election to mobilize these people to step up beyond giving in to the wife and throwing a few extra bucks at the Zoo or Wolfsons or Greenscape is beyond me.  While traditionally per acreage spending by municipalities is a lot higher than in Jacksonville, it is still chump change compared to the private dollars usually raised and invested to keep parks not only just clean and usable, but great places to be.

If Jax cannot keep lights on, libraries open, or the medians mowed, then I wouldn't expect it to be able to allocate another dime to public space, however, Alvin formed relationships with the deepest pockets in the city during his campaign, including with the current chair of ULI, a major proponent of public space and responsible private development.  How nothing gets done in Jax is beyond me.  I still blame the private sector as much as the public sector.  The private sector in Jax is never about treating the city as an invested place.  Even the most philanthropic of souls in the city are looking to strike deals and receive incentives, never to go out on a limb or to stake their claim.

Look to Atlanta at what needs to get done.

Piedmont Park: $100-$200MM raised and invested privately in the last 20 years, major citizen and philanthropic oversight
Centennial Olympic Park: Privately funded before the Olympics, privately expanded by invested parties since (largely funded through the sale of 500,000 $40 bricks)
Chastain Park: Almost a private park at this point
Candler Park: funded similarly though on a smaller scale as Piedmont Park
Grant Park: again...private donations
Atlanta Beltline: TIF financing and public grants, but mostly privately funded...major public and private campaign whereby real estate companies, tech firms, restaurant groups, and small businesses all saw opportunity to make an "investment"...major calling from the mayor's office

I could go on...but even though Atlanta spends multiples per acre what Jacksonville spends, and the parks receive great political support from all levels, the real meat of why and how they come to be so great is all private.  And it's expensive, these parks are what makes firms a lot of money.  A lot of public and private placement funds throw money at parks and other things to make their own investments work or grow.  I don't think Jacksonville companies/executives see the city and its attributes quite in the same way companies/executives see their cities elsewhere.  Not too sure why that is.

Despite what all you people want to say (how Jax companies are involved, Shahid Khan, etc etc), there is a general sense of a "we don't give a fuck" attitude in the city and it shows.  There is literally no corporate involvement as compared to most other cities.  Corporations and wealthy individuals are literally what built cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, and Charlotte.  It's the little things like a $3MM donation to a park that add up and what count.  These "investments" don't happen in Jacksonville, but if you want to see a cleaned up central park and major "place-making" activity, it won't happen until public leadership at the top starts pulling some strings and private leadership at the top starts throwing money around and viewing the city as an investment worth growing and protecting rather than a place to shield money and ride the status quo.

[thelakelander]

I definitely agree about the things like $3MM donations from the private sector adding up.  I've seen countless cities across the country fund many public initiatives such as parks, etc. through donations from their private sector.  Little ol' Lakeland literally rebuilt it's Lake Mirror Promenade into a first tier urban public space through a series of private donations.  Public dollars were leveraged to plan and kick off things initially but donations have funded the park's best amenities. 

I've only been here since 2003 but I'm still not able to figure out why a city as business rich as Jax hasn't had similar results.  The only thing I can come up with is that private dollars tend to come when the public entity reaches a level to where it has developed a coordinated vision and is taking steps to implement that vision.  This is why I'm so excited to see how the San Marco Square project has come about.  PP3 Projects like this and the process behind its implementation is exactly what urban Jax needs more of.

[simms3]

Well not to mention that really the city's best maintained parks are privately funded parks in Ortega: Stockton and Baker (funding from Ortega families, largely 2-3 in particular).  Why this can't be done on a larger level to benefit the entire city as a whole is beyond me.  We can talk about how taxes are too low until we're blue in the face, but looking to Atlanta as a comparison, the base millage rate there is 2.5-3x what it is in Jax and the city still can't afford to pave streets let alone beautify its parks (and that's also on top of annual park spending that also swallows Jax.  The real difference between great cities that are going places and those that are stagnant or resting on their laurels (in Jax's case...only exists/grows due to low taxes, location, and climate) is the people that make up the cities.

Literally everything from streetscapes to local policing forces to parks to recycling programs, etc is funded by corporate dollars through special tax assessments and donations, and through HNW individual donations.  You have a guy who is going to throw something like $300MM of his own cash for a new football stadium (a guy will throw around even more in LA if they can nab a team), you have guys throwing $50MM at a time to Georgia Tech and Emory, a guy who threw something like $75MM to the acquarium.  The streetcar took private donations.  The Beltline is mostly privately funded.  The College Football HoF is privately funded.  The Civil Rights Center.  Piedmont Park ($100MM+ in the last 2 decades alone for a park)...

Jax doesn't have nearly that kind of money, but on a smaller scale where are the $500K to $5MM donations to public amenities?  The Zoo has great funding and that's it.  UNF and JU both lack those huge lump sum donations to build up their endowments, but relative to most of the city are very well funded.  Everyone's wife volunteers with Nemours/Wolfson's, etc and so that receives a lot of special treatment, but is not a visible public amenity (and every city has hospitals that receive lots and lots of private mula...).

Furthermore, this is a city that can't give without a good ball.  No money flows unless at the Cummer Ball, Root Ball, Art/Antique Show, or some party.  What's sad, though, is that there never really is an impressive amount of money raised at these events and they are lavish, even by big city standards.  Heck, the gay community in Midtown Atlanta can raise more money for AID Atlanta doing a day event in the park or a 5K run (or the Beltline can doing a 5K run) than all the richies of Jax going to some charity ball.  It is kind of sad, and I don't even care if I piss people off (I know giving is so touchy...I caught feelings when a friend criticized me for not giving $5 at Publix for Sandy victims not knowing that I give larger lump sum amounts to my own favored institutions in return for tax deductions).

I have to commend Rob Clements for making Everbank a good corporate steward of Jax, but let's be fair...he struck a mega deal for stadium naming rights almost unheard of in the NFL because the Jags had lost so much value (so hardly a charitable move there) and he received mega incentives for a move downtown (not to mention that rent is basically a give away in DT Jax).  And then I have to ask the question...where are all the big egotistical developers in town?  Jax has never had any...which is another big reason things don't get done.  No visionaries.  Again...the chairman of all of ULI resides in Jacksonville...one would think he would be moving and shaking and trying to stake some sort of claim for the city of Jacksonville, but in all my years in ULI and reading Urban Land I have never even seen Jacksonville mentioned.  That is so pathetic there is no excuse.  Every city literally has guys doing exponentially more for their hometown than anyone in Jacksonville has thought about doing.  Shahid Khan hasn't even begun to do really big things for Jax yet besides buy the Jags, yet he has already done more than everyone else and he just moved here.  LoL.

[Ocklawaha]

And then I have to ask the question...where are all the big egotistical developers in town?  Jax has never had any...which is another big reason things don't get done.  No visionaries...

Actually this would be technically incorrect, Jacksonville WAS "modern day San Francisco" in mind, spirit and action from the 1890's until the collapse of the Florida Real Estate boom in 1926. Anti-seggregation and anti-discrimination this movie capital was a zany entertainment capital. By 1930 we had stalled out and were sputtering. There have been a few bright spots since then, Consolidation, The Jaguars and of course The Charter Company which was planning a 50 something story tower downtown when they loaded four key executive officers on an ill fated helicopter ride straight into the ground. Everbank is a rather new player, but as Lake has expressed, it's hard to imagine why a city so large and diverse, with so much business history and activity is dead in the water. 

People so soon forget that we were a city of movie stars, Flagler's, Rockefeller's, DuPont's, Presidents, gangsters, kings, priests and prince's.  "WERE," seem to be the key word.

Ever walk through a mammoth old factory with incredible architectural detail, floor deserted and littered with broken glass? THAT is my Jacksonville analogy. There simply has to be a way to reinstate that lost "can do" spirit.

[fsquid]

Shahid Khan hasn't even begun to do really big things for Jax yet besides buy the Jags, yet he has already done more than everyone else and he just moved here.  LoL.

ouch if true