Skyway Extension - Stadium

[bill]

I want rocket shoes that take me to a land of rainbows and ponies.

[edjax]

^^ as long as those rocket shoes take you far away from Jax, works for me!

[Ocklawaha]

I want rocket shoes that take me to a land of rainbows and ponies.

Here you go Bill, hope you don't mind skates...

That roadway along Bay might make for an easy conversion to a Skyway track too, it would be worth the study.

[Jason]

I'd say the Bay Street Route is superior on account of future development potential, directness and most of all the FACT that most any streetcar plan that taps the Stadium district will use Newnan to Duval/Beaver. A streetcar on Duval would render the Pink and red alternatives redundant.

Also looping the stadium would certainly be cool and would only require a single track, but we'd get more 24/7 usage out of a line that turned north from Bay to AP Randolph with a station located on the west end of the fairgrounds. A future extension of this same line could reach AP Randolph at Union and Jessie making the Skyway THE connection for all of east Jacksonville.

I would think that it would be easy to only run service on the stadium loop on game/event days.  That would make the MetroPark station the typical terminus.  Or the Stadium loop stations could simply be closed offering a drive-by touristy aspect that allows the trams to continue in one direction without having to run back and forth.

Would their be any negative to the Arena/Ballpark station location as I've indicated?  Part of me agrees that your proposed route would be ideal, but another part of me thinks that a station located behind the arena allows for less of a visual impact on the arena, ballpark, church, etc. and leaves more space for infill development in the sports district while maintaining the estreet widths.

Also, with the skyway adequately serving the smallish sports district, why would we need a streetcar?

[thelakelander]

Also, with the skyway adequately serving the smallish sports district, why would we need a streetcar?

This is where some type of advanced coordination would be needed.  The 2030 Mobility Plan, JTA, and the TPO's LRTP include a streetcar line to the sports district.  The mobility plan includes funding for it, plus it's cheaper to construct.  Unless stymied, its quite possible it will come online before the Harts Bridge viaduct nears replacement.  Ock will argue that both are needed, but I fall in the camp that a skyway extension and a streetcar are overkill, when prioritizing incremental implementation.  Only having one well planned fixed transit corridor will allow extra money to be spent on providing connectivity to another neighborhood (ie. Springfield, Durkeeville, etc.).

[tufsu1]

During the 2035 LRTP, some "competing" alternatives were tested for the Needs Plan...so for example, there was talk of skyway extensions and streetcar for both Brooklyn and San Marco

That said, a skyway extension to the sports complex was not even considered due to the length needed and costs.

[Jason]

^ I would love to see some solid estimates on what the sports district line would cost if it were to use the existing highway infrastructure compared to a completely new build.

[Ocklawaha]

I would too Jason, in fact I even filed a request for the engineering that was done back when the Skyway was "going to the Gator Bowl," only to be told by JTA that they were "lost!"

I argue that both should extend to the stadium not so much that they are both needed, as the fact that the best extension location for the Skyway in downtown ends at the stadium, and the best North-South location for 'Rapid Streetcar' ends within a block or so of the same place.

A streetcar running on the 'Electric 7' route could rapidly cover the distance from Gateway Mall to the west side of the Arena parking lot faster then any automobile or bus in the city. Move that southern terminus and the streetcar loses many of its advantages (private right-of-way, faster speeds) over buses.

A Skyway link into the east side of downtown somewhere in the Newnan Street - Catherine Street at Bay could eliminate downtown bus shuttles and make the Skyway the downtown connector that it was intended to be. It would be even better if we could locate the line with a major construction announcement for the shipyards property. I would agree that going all the way to a stadium isn't needed. As an ideal, linking the two in the AP Randolph area would make both stronger. Otherwise a connection at Bay and Newnan would work well.

The streetcar running M/L north south and the Skyway running east west makes the two systems complimentary without the duplication or overkill.

[Jason]

I would too Jason, in fact I even filed a request for the engineering that was done back when the Skyway was "going to the Gator Bowl," only to be told by JTA that they were "lost!"

Not surprised at all with that response. 

The streetcar running M/L north south and the Skyway running east west makes the two systems complimentary without the duplication or overkill.

I see what your saying. 

[thelakelander]

^ I would love to see some solid estimates on what the sports district line would cost if it were to use the existing highway infrastructure compared to a completely new build.

We'd probably have to take the initiative to develop them on our own to help sell the alternative.  When the mobility plan was developed, the estimated cost for a 1/2 mile extension of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd. in San Marco was $21 million.  About a 1/4 mile or so of that link would be at ground level. 

It's roughly a 1/2 mile gap between the Hart Bridge expressway (Forsyth & Liberty) and Hogan Street, so you're looking at all of that being elevated and that cost being at least $20 million.  On the flip end, you can do a bells and whistles streetcar for $15 million/mile or so.  Go no frills heritage streetcar and the price drops. 

The question I've always struggled with is this.  Would it be more prudent of taxpayer dollars to spend +$30 million to extend the skyway a mile to the Stadium (or Riverside Avenue) or take the same $30 million and get two to three miles of streetcar connecting the Stadium....and a Springfield.  Every time, I see the higher ROI being getting more bang out of your buck by connecting as many neighborhoods and destinations as possible, spreading the wealth of economic development in the process.

[thelakelander]

The streetcar running M/L north south and the Skyway running east west makes the two systems complimentary without the duplication or overkill.

Unfortunately, the world we live in and financial realities require us to incrementally expand as opposed to building a massive plus billion dollar system literally overnight.  So assuming we'd already have an extensive system in place, I'd be more inclined to agree.  However, I'd say its overkill if we built two fixed transit systems to the stadium district without first building a more extensive fixed system connecting neighborhoods outside of downtown. 

[Ocklawaha]

This is an OLD map I dug up from some of our earliest days. No reason why the entire system couldn't come about with incremental expansion. As we are so fond of reminding our readership, they needn't be funded out of the same pot. The Skyway has great favor with our local Congressional delegation, while the streetcar downtown, and possibly the Gateway route could be 100% locally financed.

[thelakelander]

That Gateway line (purple) would have to be lobbied into the LRTP for federal funding or into the mobility plan at the expense of another mobility plan project (commuter rail) for local funding.  Outside of that, you're looking at doing something like either raising taxes or selling JEA to acquire the cash, assuming it beats a list of other unfunded desires across town.  Congressional earmarks are no longer around, so I wouldn't put much stock in the skyway getting federal expansion money either.  If you want to see any of those at the expense of projects currently in the pipeline, you'll have to lobby to get them incorporated into the comp plan and LRTP.

[Jason]

I'm just so torn with the fact that the Skyway is intended to be THE major mode of transit throughout the downtown core.  IMO, any substantial streetcar routes with the core area would likely directly compete with the skyway further exaserbating the image of it being a waste.

Streetcars should be limited to non-competing routes within the core that connect the major neighborhoods VIA the Skyway.  Other modes such as commuter/LRT/BRT/Bus/Amtrak etc. should do the same via the JRTC.

[thelakelander]

I'm not so attached with the skyway or our 1970s era planning.  I tend to look at the needs of the overall city/region and go from there.  Where the skyway becomes a superior option (ex. extension to San Marco) starts to stand out.  Where other options can give you more bang for your buck (ex. Riverside streetcar), I see no problem not following a 1970s transit plan, that called for the skyway to serve that corridor.  At the end of the day, they won't compete, they'll complement each other.