The Jacksonville Jaguars

[CityLife]

Just in case you didn't fully get the point. Taylor Mays was a 3 time All American in college. Andre Smith was All SEC, All American, Best Linemen in the country. Gresham an All American, Green All SEC, Green Ellis All SEC, Boling All SEC, All American, Zeitler All American, Dunlap All SEC, Johnson All ACC, All American, Burfict All American, Lawson All ACC, Maualuga All American, Clements All Big 10, Hall All American, and there are about 5-10 others.

How many collegiate All Americans do the Jags have? 2 or 3.  How many All BCS conference team players do we have? Blackmon, MoJo,  Lewis, Monroe and Posluzny.

Most teams probably have 10+. We have sleepers from D2.

[CityLife]

The Bengals for sure. They are loaded with young talent.

We've missed on our early picks for sure, but we've really blown it with our mid-late round picks. I mean good grief look at our 2010 draft. The only recent mid-late round pick that has really blossomed into something is Jennings. That's because we are reaching on sleepers from small schools. Yet we have Mike Brewster starting as an undrafted rookie free agent...from The Ohio State University. Sure everyone else missed on him too, but maybe they were actually drafting talent and aren't as devoid of talent as we are.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Just in case you didn't fully get the point. Taylor Mays was a 3 time All American in college. Andre Smith was All SEC, All American, Best Linemen in the country. Gresham an All American, Green All SEC, Green Ellis All SEC, Boling All SEC, All American, Zeitler All American, Dunlap All SEC, Johnson All ACC, All American, Burfict All American, Lawson All ACC, Maualuga All American, Clements All Big 10, Hall All American, and there are about 5-10 others.

How many collegiate All Americans do the Jags have? 2 or 3.  How many All BCS conference team players do we have? Blackmon, MoJo,  Lewis, Monroe and Posluzny.

Most teams probably have 10+. We have sleepers from D2.

Are you suggesting that college awards translate to wins in the NFL?

AP Player of the Year Award Winners

2011 Robert Griffin III Baylor
2010 Cam Newton Auburn
2009 Ndamukong Suh Nebraska
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma
2007 Tim Tebow Florida
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California
2004 Matt Leinart Southern California
2003 Jason White Oklahoma
2002 Brad Banks Iowa
2001 Rex Grossman Florida
2000 Josh Heupel Oklahoma
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin
1998 Ricky Williams Texas

Seriously?  These are supposedly the best and I don't see one player on the list that jumps out at me.  RGIII looks great, the jury is still out on Cam.  Suh isn't living up the hype.  Bradford - TBD, Tebow - really?  Troy Smith - does he even play anymore.   Bush - has been dynamic.  Leinart - Who?  The guy who backs up Carsoon Palmer? 

[CityLife]

Just in case you didn't fully get the point. Taylor Mays was a 3 time All American in college. Andre Smith was All SEC, All American, Best Linemen in the country. Gresham an All American, Green All SEC, Green Ellis All SEC, Boling All SEC, All American, Zeitler All American, Dunlap All SEC, Johnson All ACC, All American, Burfict All American, Lawson All ACC, Maualuga All American, Clements All Big 10, Hall All American, and there are about 5-10 others.

How many collegiate All Americans do the Jags have? 2 or 3.  How many All BCS conference team players do we have? Blackmon, MoJo,  Lewis, Monroe and Posluzny.

Most teams probably have 10+. We have sleepers from D2.

Are you suggesting that college awards translate to wins in the NFL?

AP Player of the Year Award Winners

2011 Robert Griffin III Baylor
2010 Cam Newton Auburn
2009 Ndamukong Suh Nebraska
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma
2007 Tim Tebow Florida
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California
2004 Matt Leinart Southern California
2003 Jason White Oklahoma
2002 Brad Banks Iowa
2001 Rex Grossman Florida
2000 Josh Heupel Oklahoma
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin
1998 Ricky Williams Texas

Seriously?  These are supposedly the best and I don't see one player on the list that jumps out at me.  RGIII looks great, the jury is still out on Cam.  Suh isn't living up the hype.  Bradford - TBD, Tebow - really?  Troy Smith - does he even play anymore.   Bush - has been dynamic.  Leinart - Who?  The guy who backs up Carsoon Palmer?

Lol at using the Heisman as your sample. I specifically cited All American and All Conference players.

You're right though. Lets just keep drafting guys from D2. Maybe one of these days we'll find a Jerry Rice....

[duvaldude08]

I'll say this, Gene may get fired and it will be from fan dissention, and the next guy that comes in will look like a superstar - because he will have plenty of viable talent already on the team - something to build from, and not having to start from scratch. 

It's like Gruden winning the SB with Dungy's players in Tampa.

Man we are buds for a reason. This is exactly what I was hinting in my last post there. If we did fire Gene, the next GM only has to fill holes. The building blocks are already there. But from a fans perspective, you should finish with a rebuild at year 4. As you stated, this team was completed depleted of talent. After the debaticle of 2008,  bad drafting, good players getting cut, and out tenured players retiring, we were left with nothing. AS I stated previously the Texans are a huge example. The owner stuck to his guns and kept the same GM, regardless of what the fans had to say. Im sure Texans fans arent holler to fire their GM now.

[I-10east]

I'm not the one to not man up and admit that I was wrong; I predicted a 'pie in the sky'10-6 season this year thinking that the passing game would be better with the new picks/acquisitions, and most importantly IMO that we should be able to manage to get some consistent pass rush on the opposing QB. The passing game is disappointing, but IMO not something that can't be fixed, but I can't say the same concerning the front four, IMO they are who they are (Branch is the only one that gets a pass). Best case scenario, I see a 7-9 this year, and that would be a miraculous season. I know that people are gonna blame Gabbert, but I'm not ready to give on him just yet with too many other inconsistencies on the offense. We clearly got out coached in that game, not so much the fake punt which was well executed, but for allowing Mathis to cover AJ Green. Sometimes corners drop potential interceptions (Mathis) but you never see a defender fumble an interception without getting stripped (Bosworth) esp in the red zone. If there is any silver lining to this is that all of the teams that we lost to look very good so far, and they should be the real deal for the playoffs, barring an epic choke; They all have 3 wins or better.   

[thelakelander]

Just in case you didn't fully get the point. Taylor Mays was a 3 time All American in college. Andre Smith was All SEC, All American, Best Linemen in the country. Gresham an All American, Green All SEC, Green Ellis All SEC, Boling All SEC, All American, Zeitler All American, Dunlap All SEC, Johnson All ACC, All American, Burfict All American, Lawson All ACC, Maualuga All American, Clements All Big 10, Hall All American, and there are about 5-10 others.

How many collegiate All Americans do the Jags have? 2 or 3.  How many All BCS conference team players do we have? Blackmon, MoJo,  Lewis, Monroe and Posluzny.

Most teams probably have 10+. We have sleepers from D2.

Are you suggesting that college awards translate to wins in the NFL?

AP Player of the Year Award Winners

2011 Robert Griffin III Baylor
2010 Cam Newton Auburn
2009 Ndamukong Suh Nebraska
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma
2007 Tim Tebow Florida
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State
2005 Reggie Bush Southern California
2004 Matt Leinart Southern California
2003 Jason White Oklahoma
2002 Brad Banks Iowa
2001 Rex Grossman Florida
2000 Josh Heupel Oklahoma
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin
1998 Ricky Williams Texas

Seriously?  These are supposedly the best and I don't see one player on the list that jumps out at me.  RGIII looks great, the jury is still out on Cam.  Suh isn't living up the hype.  Bradford - TBD, Tebow - really?  Troy Smith - does he even play anymore.   Bush - has been dynamic.  Leinart - Who?  The guy who backs up Carsoon Palmer? 

When he was on the field, Ricky Williams was great!

[Gators312]

This isn't an apology for Gene, it's just that I don't really think anyone fully understands how depleted the team actually was when he took over.   When 4 of your 7 top picks aren't even playing the game anymore, you have a serious problem - that wasn't on Gene.  It's time for his 1st draft class to resign and there are still several players that are quality players that will be going into their second contract with the team, and I know no one wants to hear it, but 4 years from now when Monroe is still locking down the left side, Cox is in the secondary, Jennings is still carrying half the load at 5.5 yds/att, those are players we don't have to replace right away - you can truly have 'jars on the shelf'. 

Gene had a part in scouting and helping "Shack" developing his player acquisition strategies.  So he's not completely off the hook for the years preceding his rise to GM. 

What other GM in the NFL hasn't hit on at least 3 players like you mention, that can be significant contributors for a long period of time?

Had he drafted just 1 OL with his 2nd Round or 3 Round pick this season, we would in better shape.  I could go on but I think there is another thread for that subject.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Gene had a part in scouting and helping "Shack" developing his player acquisition strategies.  So he's not completely off the hook for the years preceding his rise to GM. 

I agree.  There was also a write up on BCC along the same lines that bascially said there was a 3-headed monster making the picks:  Gene, Shack and JDR - that there was no accountability.  I think WW knew who was really making the picks or Gene would be consulting in Detroit and not promoted to the helm.

What other GM in the NFL hasn't hit on at least 3 players like you mention, that can be significant contributors for a long period of time?

For this excercise we'll use another AFC South team - a team that was believed to have had one of the best GMs in the business - Bill Polian.  Now granted, after picking Manning, James, Wayne Freeney, Clark, Mathis, they picked towards the end of the first round in many drafts, but I'm going to focus on the key years that are relevant to the discussion - '06-'11 ('12 doesn't count, new GM) and I'm just listing the top 2 picks from each year:

'06:  1(30) J. Addai, 2(62) T. Jennings

Addai was a solid running back for many years.  No problems here.  Jennings appeared to be a complete bust before getting to Chicago and starting to produce.  He already has 4INTs in 3 games, this year.  Compare:  Reggie Nelson

'07:  1(32) A. Gonzalez, 2(42) T. Ugoh

Gonzalez can't seem to stay on the field and has only been OK when there.  Not what you'd expect from a 1st round pick from Ohio St.  Ugoh was cut in '09, sat out a year, played in 3 games with the NYGs in '11 and is out of the NFL.  Don't know much more about him, but I guess we can say bust - though it might be injuries.  Compare:  Reggie Williams, Khalif Barnes

'
I can keep going, but for the most part, in the past 6 years, the Colt's have missed on their top picks year after year, the difference....  Peyton Manning.  What happened when Peyton got hurt....  See what I'm doing here, they kept missing, but they had the great equalizer. 

We kept missing and we had nothing to hide it. 

Gene Smith still has his players on the roster from '09.  Players that will get resigned - Monroe, Knighton, Cox, Thomas (already extended), Jennings and possibly Britton - by far the best draft that our team has had in terms of longevity.  The year after - Alualu, D'Anthony Smith and Austen Lane.  Followed by Gabbert, Rackley & Shorts.  Do you see the pattern?  We will be drafting new players and resigning our old ones.   This is something we haven't done in several years, so long that people forget what it's like to go into FA without trying to fill a roster.  Again, he's not perfect, but IMO he hasn't really 'missed' on anyone yet.

Had he drafted just 1 OL with his 2nd Round or 3 Round pick this season, we would in better shape.  I could go on but I think there is another thread for that subject.

Are you saying that Branch was a bad pick?   Anger is in the top 5 of most every punting category available.  I don't know that a rookie OL would make much of a difference.  Don't forget, we can still sign practice squad players, FAs and UDFAs - if there was anyone out there better than what we have, don't you think they would be on the team by now?
[/quote]

[copperfiend]

Just in case you didn't fully get the point. Taylor Mays was a 3 time All American in college. Andre Smith was All SEC, All American, Best Linemen in the country. Gresham an All American, Green All SEC, Green Ellis All SEC, Boling All SEC, All American, Zeitler All American, Dunlap All SEC, Johnson All ACC, All American, Burfict All American, Lawson All ACC, Maualuga All American, Clements All Big 10, Hall All American, and there are about 5-10 others.

Taylor Mays is terrible. He was overrated in college and was overdrafted in the NFL.

The Niners dumped him for a reason.

[copperfiend]

How many collegiate All Americans do the Jags have? 2 or 3.  How many All BCS conference team players do we have? Blackmon, MoJo,  Lewis, Monroe and Posluzny.

Dwight Lowery was an All American at San Jose State and led the nation in INT's one year.

[Gators312]

Gene Smith still has his players on the roster from '09.  Players that will get resigned - Monroe, Knighton, Cox, Thomas (already extended), Jennings and possibly Britton - by far the best draft that our team has had in terms of longevity.  The year after - Alualu, D'Anthony Smith and Austen Lane.  Followed by Gabbert, Rackley & Shorts.  Do you see the pattern?  We will be drafting new players and resigning our old ones.   This is something we haven't done in several years, so long that people forget what it's like to go into FA without trying to fill a roster.  Again, he's not perfect, but IMO he hasn't really 'missed' on anyone yet.

Had he drafted just 1 OL with his 2nd Round or 3 Round pick this season, we would in better shape.  I could go on but I think there is another thread for that subject.

Are you saying that Branch was a bad pick?   Anger is in the top 5 of most every punting category available.  I don't know that a rookie OL would make much of a difference.  Don't forget, we can still sign practice squad players, FAs and UDFAs - if there was anyone out there better than what we have, don't you think they would be on the team by now?

Of course the jury is still out on Branch, but in 4 games the Jags have 2 sacks....Not all on one guy but come on Jags...

I'm saying a guy like Cordy Glenn (just top of my head) that would have made more of an impact than Branch has already.   

Anger could be a Hall of Fame punter, but wasn't the right pick at that time.   How many of the other guys in the top 5 of the punting rankings got drafted at all when they came out?   Lechler may be it?

Teams with plenty of depth and road graders at OL have the luxury of drafting a punter in the 3rd round. 

I understand the number of injuries aren't Gene's fault but contingencies for injuries are something he should be ready for.  Finding a FA punter to be in the top 10 of the NFL is exponentially easier than finding a FA to play at a high level on the interior of the OL. 

It's just disappointing to see us get manhandled up front for another year now.  The interior of the OL was getting blown up all day yesterday, and imo Gabbert can't develop better habits when he is running for his life or getting his arm hit. 

Gabbert needs to play better and see the field, but I honestly think 2 years of poor OL play is seriously undermining his ability to grow as an NFL guy.  All NFL QBs get sacked, some like Cutler a a lot.  Difference is Cutler learned to play in the NFL under a decent OL and had some success to build his confidence.

Everything Gene has done isn't garbage, but the defense of his record is just putting too much lipstick on a pig. 

You talk about resigning Gene's guys, I'd much rather be resigning Jason Pierre Paul instead of Alualu.  Heck there are a few other guys I'd rather have had for the past 4 years using that pick instead of Tyson.  He's a good guy, makes some plays, but hasn't performed to his draft status.  Britton is another guy that's not a complete miss but his under-performance contributes to the lack of success. 

Just because Gene hasn't "missed" doesn't mean he is succeeding at his job.   

[Gators312]

For this excercise we'll use another AFC South team - a team that was believed to have had one of the best GMs in the business - Bill Polian.  Now granted, after picking Manning, James, Wayne Freeney, Clark, Mathis, they picked towards the end of the first round in many drafts, but I'm going to focus on the key years that are relevant to the discussion

Officially Chris Polian was GM and Bill was President, 2009-2011 if I remember correctly.   

But the Colts fired them, so I'm not sure that supports your argument.

I support the Jags and love this City, it's frustrating..... 

[Wacca Pilatka]

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread all week because of Gene Debate #14,312.

I'm with NRW but I understand Gators' POV and respect his fanhood entirely.  Same as the last 14,311 times.  Carry on, all...

[Gators312]

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread all week because of Gene Debate #14,312.

I'm with NRW but I understand Gators' POV and respect his fanhood entirely.  Same as the last 14,311 times.  Carry on, all...

I waited 4 games....I tried not to get sucked back in.   Nothing on the field to talk about positively I guess really brings it out.