Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale

[JeffreyS]

Please this is just that a few businesses do not want competition and a group pretending to be a preservation group but wanting to be an Oakleaf HOA. Dreams of Julington sweetening their nights. Oh you lovely parking lots and express lanes.

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.

"debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care" and who made you God?

No one made me God or even the boss. That is however my opinion on the debate. If want to think of me as God that is your right but I haven't the slightest as to who made the proclamation. 

[KEGreene1]

This is not a debate.  When one side uses misdirection (MARTA, Street Cars, calling a family PIZZA joint a Nightclub...) to "argue" a topic instead of using facts, it makes you wonder...Why?

IMO it is because the other side is just a few business owners scared of competition and wanting to protect their own business interests by hiding behind the "We Love Our Community" veil.

[If_I_Loved_you]

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.

All I'm saying is simply complaining online or writing a few letters to city hall won't be effective to win your position if your opposition is doing more lobbying at actual meetings and behind closed doors.  Getting your way is always best when you can make your position seem more larger and influential than it may actually be.  If you want to be as impactful as RAP and WLA in this particular situation just copy the process they are taking while promoting your position.

The funny thing about meetings held in Jacksonville is must people feel it's someone Else's problem? I have been to meetings over the years for a new main branch library when 25 people or so showed up. And when the fdot talked about all the new roads that were built at I-95 and interstate 10 how many people showed up for that meeting I believe about 10 at the most? I really love it when a lot of these meetings are scheduled late mornings early afternoons or right at six pm.

[JeffreyS]

Exactly KE Green just say we want the place to ourselves and we want it to be more suburban just with old homes. At least then we could talk about the subject truthfully just with different objectives.

[JeffreyS]

On your people showing up you are dead "if I". The different civic meetings I have attended rarely have more than the principal parties.

[thelakelander]

With equal vocal backing, lobbying and advocacy, its easy to change the political theme if you base your argument strictly off zoning facts and economic data while also effectively pointing out fallacies in the opposing argument. 

This was effectively done with the original JTA dedicated busway plan and with the car wash that opened in Springfield a few years back.  On the flip end, if you say nothing in the proper channels, the squeaky wheel simply gets the grease.  Everything is really as simple as this.  With that said, I'd expect RAP and WLA to get most of what they are pushing for because they are the only organized entities pushing for anything.

[Pinky]

Boy, The Brick is sure gonna lose money when they have to give up all of their outdoor tables, cut off their shitty jazz combos at midnight and keep their huge front doors closed..  Biscottis won't be the same without their outdoor tables either, you know, the ones that are plunked down on the public sidewalk like the Brick's?  And Bluefish won't really have any parking spots at all once they build 5' deep landscaping areas to shield their awful looking lot from street view.  Waiting in line at The Fox won't be the same without the coffee cart out on the sidewalk, which I think should go as well, since RAP is so concerned about the sidewalks being used for serving customers.  I guess Elevated Avondale is going to be closing up too, since it's clearly not a "restaurant", just a bar (or is it a "nightclub"??). 

When will construction begin on the walls, landscaping and lighting changes behind The Brick and Bluefish, and across the street behind Biscottis and The Fox; you know, the ones that are supposed to shield adjacent residences from the noise and unsightly appearance of the backs of restaurants? 

And regarding limiting hours of operation, I think that restaurants are just as much of a nuisance in the early mornings as they are late at night; let's set a reasonable policy that says nobody can operate before 10:00 AM.  That shouldn't hurt anyone's business right?  I mean, The Fox would still have from then until 2:30 or so to make their money.. 

I think these are all perfectly reasonable policies which, given that they originated from WLA and RAP, should be easily accepted by the Avondale merchants.  All in the name of progress and planning of course-  why I'll bet that they've already discussed it, given that I saw Susan Frasier the planning chick banging on The Brick's door last wednesday morning before they opened..  I mean, what else could she have been there to discuss with Steve?? 

[simms3]

^^^Nice.  It sounds like the GOB network isn't limited to downtown and citywide policies, but extends to the local chapters in Avondale, Riverside and other neighborhoods.  The situation going on now is but a microcosm of the overall GOB network that permeates the city and prevents anything "new" from happening outside of Gate Parkway.

[KEGreene1]

Pinky is right! But let's just examine the section in RAP's response "Exception for Outside Sales and Service" my comments in BOLD

1. Condition that final seat count includes outdoor seating (inclusive of sidewalk seats).
Does this mean that RAP will be talking with Brick and Biscotti's?
2. No music or television sound played outside or in any covered patio area after 9 p.m.
So I am to assume that this means the Brick will be closing it's sliding doors at 9 pm so the music doesn't leak out?
3. Covered patio shall be enclosed with glass on rear (parking lot side) and side (Ingleside).
So will RAP be talking with Brick and Biscotti's to be removing their sidewalk seating?
4. Use must be a bona-fide restaurant that serves food at all times that alcohol is being served.
Again with this "Nightclub" nonsense.  It is a Pizza Joint!
5. Exception does not run with property â€" it applies to this business only. Future owners of the the property are rejoicing!  Please don't make me have to deal with the restrictions you are placing on Mellow Mushroom.

6. Any sliding doors must close at 12 p.m.Standard answer, are you going around a restricting outside dining at all the other establishments in Avondale?

So my question is Why are we listening to a group of business owners who are trying to protect their business behind the veil of "We Love our Community"?  A group using lies and scare tactics to influence the majority. 

Why are we not supporting a family friendly establishment, who has listened and complied with the demands of the RAP/WLA groups (while they continuously change their demands)?  An establishment which will clean up a run down property, provide a family restaurant where there isn't one, provide jobs and an increase in foot traffic for other establishments in the area. 

[ben says]

Where's Mtrain? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?

[acme54321]

Does anyone know what was originally built on that corner?  Was a gas station always there?  If not what type of structure did the current Shell building replace??

[If_I_Loved_you]

Where's Mtrain? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?

Unlike most posting here he could be working?

[Bridges]

Where's Mtrain? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?

He's probably in a private meeting with Jim Love.  You're welcome to join if you own a successful business and have some political pull.  They entertain all offers as long as they like your business. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15403.msg296973.html#msg296973

[Pinky]

Does anyone know what was originally built on that corner?  Was a gas station always there?  If not what type of structure did the current Shell building replace??

Early maps of the area show a commercial building similar in size and layout to the adjacent Emily Benham/'town building.  It was replaced by a gas station in 1951.  I'm not sure what the original gas station looked like, it was demolished to make way for the current (soon the be demolished) gas station building which was built in 1964.

(This from the "Mellow Mushroom FAQ's" page on RAP's website at
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 -  If you haven't seen it, be sure to check it out.  It's a point by point refutation of the positions most frequently cited by the Pro-MM folks, and a really telling indicator of RAP's clear bias and agenda in this situation.)

[CityLife]

I have happily and will remain happily uninvolved in the MM issue...That said, God Save Jacksonville the day that someone actually proposes an intense use in the Historic District. You know, like something you would see in a big boy city.

I haven't been able to keep up with the whole MM issue, but can someone fill me in. Are the majority of complainants (outside of the businesses and RAP) residents of the wealthy area east of St. Johns Ave.? Are they the ones pushing RAP to fight this?