Riot In Riverside! July 4th 2008! riot brings mayhem.

[NotNow]

Really?  I thought that I was pointing out how "worked up" the reporting was.  And I suppose that I misspoke, I haven't heard anything, this is the only place where I have seen anything about this.  "Riot" is not a term that I would have applied to this, but OK, if that's what you want to call it, I'll go along.  But look at the title of the thread,"Riot in Riverside!  July 4th riot brings mayhem".  Mayhem?  Really?

JSO doesn't issue riot gear to patrol.  The most you would have seen is a helmet.  No tear gas either, just pepper spray in individual spray cans.  In other words, the gas cannisters you see shot or thrown into crowds were not there.  Pepper spray would have been used to help disperse a crowd AFTER several warnings.  No rubber bullets, either.  Not issued.  The helicopter is used to emphasize to an unruly crowd that the police are there in force, and to comply with orders to disperse.  Yes, I guess that it is quite unusual if your not used to it.  That is the idea.  Police might have deployed rifles if a shooting was reported.  But it is common in situations like this that these "shootings" are false reports, and that seems to be the case from last night.  And where did you hear about multiple taserings?  But,  even if there were, the taser is documented as the most efficient way to ensure the fewest possible injuries to resisting suspects and Officers.  

I say all of this so that the fine people living in Riverside do not get the wrong idea about what happened in their neighborhood.  We hear so much negative about Jax that I think that we should at least be accurate.  I hope to sound reasonable and not "worked up".  I do not mean to demean caravaggio as I am sure that he is relaying his observations.  I am simply trying to explain how this response can be misinterpreted.  

And yes, these things DO happen almost every weekend in Jax.  

[NotNow]

Well actually, the Times Union works on skeleton crew for the weekend, and the other guys were all doing other stuff.

Anyways Not Not, not to be a dick about it, but weve heard from 5 people who were there and you werent, so......

OK Stephen, your right.  I wasn't there.  I was however on duty last night and am somewhat aware of what happened around the city.  But I will defer to your reporting.  I'll be curious to see the news reports.

[thebrokenforum]

Not now, when you say "on duty" do mean that you're a cop? Dispatch? rescue? Just curious. It will be nice to have some personal insight on the multiple crime issues the city has.

[NotNow]

I am a Police Officer. 

[thebrokenforum]

I figured as much. Ok, so I'm dying to ask...are 40 more guys just like yourself the answer to the murder capital of Fla. If not, what is? What works? What doesn't? What would you like to see done?

[NotNow]

As Stephen has pointed out to me on many posts, I am a biased observer.  But if you want my opinion...

I think the answer is obvious to anyone who honestly looks at the problem.  We have an extraordinairily large number of young men, mostly black, who through culture and economics have adopted a criminal "lifestyle".  We can have all of the studies that our budgets will allow but the answers will always be the same:

1.  For immediate action, yes, forty more Officers will help.  More are needed but we should increase our patrol force as close to the recognized national standard as our budget will allow.  It has been shown over and over in multiple cities that patrol presence suppresses crime.  Check the stats, we are WAY below even the FL cities average when it comes to Officers per capita. 

2.  With the increase in Officers, prosecutions MUST follow.  Even so called "minor" crimes, such as auto theft, should be prosecuted.  This gives the State the chance to take criminals out of society, as well as steer juveniles and first timers into diversion programs.  (Yep, gotta have em.  You WILL save a few.) 

3.  We have a dysfunctional generation because we have dysfunctional parents.  Offer classes and help, mandate the help when a child is identified as neglected, then have the nads to take the child away when the parents don't take advantage of the classes and help offered.  This is difficult.  It is not as difficult as shooting this kid when he is 18 and robbing a store.  We have to do it.

4.  (Not my area of expertise, but I know its broke when I look at it) Fix our public school system.  We don't challenge kids  and we don't keep them in school.  We put our finest in two high schools, leaving the rest without leadership in scholastics.  Our school system is cutting teaching positions this year.  If there is a profession that is less appreciated than cops, it is teachers.  Lets hire good ones and pay them to stay.  We don't need administrators making six figures to tell us this.  There HAS to be a better way.

Just my opinion...

[NotNow]

Stephen,

I don't mean to sound defensive, I am just pointing out how your reporting is inflammatory.  I am not trying to call you out, I realize that you are just repeating what you were told.  I am trying to explain what was seen.  The JSO actually has quite a bit of experience in "small crowd" tactics and has some experience in larger crowds.  These concert and club "riots" are quite common.  We also host large concert events and of course quite a few football games including "The Worlds Largest Cocktail Party".  I won't go into each event, or the experience and education of police administrators, watch commanders, first line supervisors, and line officers, but suffice it to say that I feel that this is a very qualified agency.  Crowd control is a science that is actually studied and national "best practices" are utilized here.  However, as always, we are open to suggestions on how we could improve our performance.  I would be interested in hearing your ideas.

[thebrokenforum]

Thanks for sharing your opinions. I've worked on the EMS side so I can only speak from personal experience but  I think it'll be interesting to see what happens with the whole "Jax journey thing". Personally I don't see the additional cops doing much but more man power is almost never a bad thing. I think more foot and horse patrols could help. I agree about prosecuting. Things seem to be spinning out of control...or so the news would have us believe. In my opinion, leadership is a big part of the problem.

[caravaggio]

Hey, just to clarify...

The police that were on the scene were nothing but helpful. They did the best they could with a situation (from my perspective) that was fairly out of control. It was obvious that the people running the event were not expecting the crowd they got. The few off duty police officers that were hired for the event were overwhelmed until help came. Even then, it was difficult for them to keep the crowd off the street, much less to get them home.

Also, 99% of the people who showed up for that show were just there to have a good time and were completely fine. Yea, it sucked for me, because the usual crowd of people coming to the area for the monthly art stuff got shoved out. The problem was there were a few thousand people showing up for a show that was already full and being told by police to go home. It was just a lack of planning.

As for a few of my observations... Not all the police were in riot gear or anything, most were just in plain uniforms, some plain clothes. But, later as things got a bit mroe intense, there were some who were wearing full black suits with the body armor on the outside. We spotted the first of these officers during a clearer moment and someone else with me joked that the SWAT folks had showed up, because that is what they looked like, but the officer explained the he was jsut a regular cop. There were a lot of police officers who showed up in unmarked vehicles, not the cruisers.

Like I said, it looked like assault rifles to me, but I've never seen what the guns that fire the rubber bullets look like. To me it looked like an M-16, but it was in a crowd and they were running whenever I saw them.

It's possible that it wasn't tear gas, but lots of people came running down from a foggy looking area with their shirts covering their faces saying that it was tear gas and a few people I know looked they had been caught by mace.

I'm not sure I would classify it as a riot myself, but very close to it. We kept waiting for someone to light up a car or something. It wouldn't have surprised me with everything else that was going on.

The police were the ones that told us that 3 people had been shot. I never saw anyone get shot. I did hear what I thought were gun shots more than once throughout the night, many times accompanied by crowds running away from the direction of the shot, but liek I said it was the 4th after all and add to that all the yelling and the helicopter 40 feet above my head and it becomes difficult to tell.

[NotNow]

Thanks for listening.  

We do have a habit of preparing for the worst.  We would be castigated if we weren't prepared.  We manage large crowds without incident on a regular basis.  By all reports, the behavior of JSO during the Super Bowl was complimented almost universally.  70,000 go to each Jag game and we don't seem to have any problems.  More for most college games.  We regularly work sold out concerts and shows at the arena, without rioting or mistreatment.  The problem seems to be with what demographic makes up the subject crowd.  I believe that this is the reason that Riverside business owners decry the "Cool Runnings" repeat.    That show created problems no matter where it went on.  The police response is the same concept to each of these events.  Are we perfect?  Absolutely not.  We will always strive to improve.  I believe the problem here lies with the planning.  The promoter appears to have underestimated the response.  With proper planning, a second show or a second night could have been planned.  With advance notification, police could have dispersed customers much earlier, possibly preventing a gathering crowd.  Perhaps the JSO can assist with planning such events, although I don't see a rush of promoters asking for help.

Sorry about your show caravaggio.  The black vests are tactical vests used by some Officers.  The rifles are AR-15's.  These are semi automatic weapons issued to patrol officers.  Pepper spray is an irritant and will definitely ruin your day, but our application of this chemical in patrol is as a spray.  SWAT did not respond and would not respond to such an event.  These are difficult situations for folks and I agree that the failure appears to have been in planning the event.

[floridakelly]

So, I'd been scouring the internet looking for some sort of reporting on what happened last night and this thread is all I could find! Figured I needed to join the forum and put in my two cents.

I was with two people last night and we started our night at Raglands around 9. The crowd seemed huge, but then again it might just be that I am not at all used to seeing so many people in Five Points at once. The crowd wasn't rowdy when we were first there and other than taking up a lot of space, it didn't seem to be a big deal. Everyone was pretty polite and OK to us when we crossed the street and the line to see what Bogda was showing.

The three of us left Five Points at about 10:35 to walk down Post to the river to watch the fireworks. I'd say the fireworks were over by 11, so we headed back up Post to go back to Raglands. As we got to Park, we saw a large crowd standing, looking down the street towards the Five Points intersection, then a lot of people running towards and across Post.

It wasn't too crazy yet and we couldn't really figure out what was going on, so we stood on the corner of Post and Park for quite a while, watching and trying to figure out what the deal was. We stood in the doorway of the art gallery there for a good while and at no time were we scared for our lives or anything. Some girls across the street started fighting using broken bottles and shoes, which was far and away the most violence we saw last night.

Things got a little hairier as the night continued. We DID hear a taser being used, clearly, at least three times. I don't have any idea if anyone was actually tased, but tasers were definitely used. Eventually the people inside Raglands were getting freaked out, herded us inside, and locked the doors. The Raglands people were panicking, understandably since I guess they felt responsible for the people buying their alcohol. Everyone was really nice and we stood inside watching.

Not all that much happened, in retrospect, but at the time it seemed pretty choatic. Lots of people running and then there'd be a lull, and then more people yelling. It was hard to tell if/when shots were fired because of the fireworks. We DID definitely see an office running down Park towards Post with an assault rifle and one of the people with me is former Navy and identified it as such. Though, who knows what a rubber bullet gun looks like! It was certainly intimidating to me. Also saw a cop with a gas mask although no signs of gas at any point. Lots of big cans of some sort of spray (mace I guess?) but never saw it actually used on anyone.

The helicopter made it pretty surreal. Everything calmed down after a bit and the Raglands people let us out.

So, it did seem very choatic but honestly we didn't see much violence. Just a bizarre situation to encounter in Five Points--a place that is usually so chill and peaceful. The cops were very polite and helpful and I couldn't at all blame them for being edgy because there were definitely a lot of people in a confined space. When we first walked up, my friend commented that there's no way the number of cops would be able to control the number of people if something terrible happened--sort of prophetic I guess!

The people from the crowd we talked to were funny and non-threatening. Lots of the kids waiting for the show asked us where we had been when shots were fired (we didn't know, we were down at the river) and if we knew what was going on. I guess I wouldn't call it a riot in retrospect because there wasn't any property damage or anything, but I can see that that would be an easy label to put on it since the situation seemed to chaotic at the time.

Anyway! I don't know if it will clear anything up for anyone but that was my experience. I'm interested to see how and if this is covered by the Jacksonville media!

--Kelly

[floridakelly]

Yes, definitely heard tasers. Maybe it wasn't the police who had them, who knows. Also, Navy friend says the assault rifle we saw could've been for rubber bullets, as neither of us knows what a rubber bullet gun would look like.

[NotNow]

Thanks for your observations,  once again, JSO does not issue less lethal (rubber bullets) weapons to patrol.  What you saw were patrol rifles, probably in response to reports of shooting.  No one was shot in Riverside last night.

[RiversideGator]

This breathless reporting is apparently not entirely accurate and not exactly good for the neighborhood either.  The statements by people on here alone shows how even eyewitness accounts can be wildly inaccurate.  For example, people in crowds mistaking other sounds for gunfire, rumors of rubber bullets and shootings, etc, etc.  Not Now is a professional and he obviously knows what he is talking about.  Specifically, there was no one shot, the crowd was dispersed with typical police tactics, and these sorts of problems are unfortunately not uncommon in parts of Jacksonville.  The real problem here was in renting the old Five Points Theater out to any sort of rap concert.  These crowds tend to bring trouble with them for whatever reason and they are not consistent with the musical tastes of the area anyway.  I would urge the owners of the old Theater to please not rent to these sorts of groups again.  Hopefully this experience has been a wake up call regarding this.

[cayohueso]

I called First Coast News about this street action. The news desk claimed that they knew of the incident but decided that it was not news worthy. Hmmm...create diversion, don't report it...were they filming "Ocean's 14: Gotta Getta Gold Grill"?