Town Center Construction

[fieldafm]

^^^Yup, those taller buildings really make the difference in VA....

Just because the SJTC doesn't have block streets with sidewalks at close intervals doesn't mean it isn't thriving.

Re-read what I wrote... I never said it wasn't 'thriving'.  In fact, that was not my point at all.  Try reading things critically and digseting the information before responding. 

[Captain Zissou]

^^^Yup, those taller buildings really make the difference in VA....

Just because the SJTC doesn't have block streets with sidewalks at close intervals doesn't mean it isn't thriving.

Have you ever seen ants swarm a piece of food??  That's thriving too, but it doesn't last long and it just leaves behind a mess.

[I-10east]

I'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.

[simms3]

I'm not going to touch the whole DT vs TC issue.  I will say that as long as you can pick up 5 acres with flexible zoning for $1.8 million on the Southside, downtown is going to have a hard time playing catch up.

This.  And I have to add all the job growth is on the SS, so logically that is where new multifamily will go, as well as new hotels and new office.  City leaders and private business leaders need to find a way to convince firms that normally locate downtown in other cities to locate downtown in Jacksonville.  The nature of the Jacksonville economy also lends itself to suburban office and industrial.  It's not a "corporate" town in the sense that Atlanta, Boston, Charlotte, Pittsburgh and Chicago are.

[Jagsdrew]

Have you ever seen ants swarm a piece of food??  That's thriving too, but it doesn't last long and it just leaves behind a mess.
[/quote]

I like it when the ants eat too much and they end up just passing out/dying on top of the food. thats the way i would want to go out!

[cline]

So yall keep being in denial, if anything that's 'unsustainable' right now in Jax, it's DT (not that I want it to be that way) it's just a fact. The SJTC is full and thriving, and I know that yall hate that.

What is your definition of "sustainable"?  In 2-3 decades once the "newest" mall opens up somewhere else the SJTC will become what Regency is now.  That's not sustainability in my opinion.  The SJTC is thriving right now but how long will it last?

[fieldafm]

I'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.

Again... never said that the mall is 'taking things directly away from downtown' either.

The St Johns Town Center is indicative of the fiscally disastrous development patterns this city has encouraged over the past three decades.  Until there is incentive for high-density, fiscally responsible building in areas like this instead of the low-density development that taxpayers carry on their strained and broken backs... then I am going to continue to criticize as I am sick of the large cost burdens on the public whose negative effects have disenfranchised what could be a thriving a city.   All the while the city goes bankrupt capitulating to the unsaistanable strain this places on the already overburdened budget.

You can stick your head in the sand and ignore the huge gaping holes in the city's budget caused by overburdened requirements of capital improvements and large bond issues to develop fringe malls, but that doesn't change reality. 

[peestandingup]

I'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.

I think the main issue here is what its always been. Nothing's wrong with malls & development in the suburbs, but not at the expense of your actual downtown & urban areas. Bulldozing it & letting it rot, all the while fancy new development, car-centric "urban centers", etc pop up in the suburbs is a giant slap in the face to anyone who takes this stuff seriously. And all the "south side & the Town Center is the new downtown" talk is just ridiculous & hammers home the fact that this town as a whole just doesn't get it.

When you don't have a downtown that's alive, you don't have a city. It's really as simple as that.

[I-10east]

I'm looking forward to the next SJTC thread in the future, with forty-five posts that all talk about what could have been in downtown. 

[Anti redneck]

I'm telling you! Construct a town center in downtown, except give it a downtown feel to it. Have taller buildings and apartments on top of the shops, like in the VA picture. Brown wants to revitalize downtown, what better way to do it?

[JFman00]

Downtown malls aren't a panacea, especially if everything they provide is already duplicated by suburban malls (New Orleans Riverwalk and Shops at Canal Place).

[danem]

Yeah you don't want/need a "mall" downtown, you only need to have all the same amenities and entertainment that serve (mainly) the folks who live or stay there. That's why I've commented before that something as simple as a Walgreens or 7-11 near the apartments is a more useful start than, say, an Ikea. But certainly good shopping is included in "amenities and entertainment".

[simms3]

Downtown retail is usually a natural progression, especially in the south.

The only post-war sunbelt city that has mastered downtown retail is Denver, which arguably has quite a dense core of warehouses and low-rises and the city benefits from great planning, starting with the City Beautiful Movement.

Look at Miami, which has one of the densest forests of condo/rental/hotel highrises in North America, and it has basically no retail and a decent collection of restaurants in its CBD.  The retail is slowly coming, but all of the urban retail in South FL is either in Coral Gables (which is semi-urban at best), or South Beach (which is the world elite's playground).

I can speak for Atlanta, which has the 2nd highest concentration of high-rise living in the south and arguably the densest/most walkable urban neighborhood (much of Brickell consists of gated highrises and it is not as walkable).  The area has a really hard time fostering retail, and it is not because of "lack of demand" or because Atlantic Station has 600,000 SF of "walkable" retail 0.5 miles away (with 4,000 free parking spaces beneath).

It is ALL to do with parking.  It's a mentality thing, especially in the south.  Over the past 50 years people have grown accustomed to free and abundant parking, and so those who have lived in the Sunbelt/south have developed a bad habit of only going places that have free and easy parking.  People who move down from denser areas are still used to having no parking and may generally be more accepting of not being able to park for free or at all, but give them a year and they grow accustomed to the way of the car.

What has happened is that in Atlanta, people will happily take the train in for sporting events, concerts, to go to Piedmont Park, and festivals.  They know that tens of thousands of people will re-board late at night and they know they'll be safe.  This has been occuring for 10-15 years.

In the last 5-8 years people have been coming to Midtown via cab, rarely by train, to eat and go out to drink.  There are so many cabs now that even during the day on the main roads you should not have to wait more than 30-60 seconds to be able to hail one.  Midtown has a HUGE restaurant scene and nearly all street level retail is now restaurants or bars, and this month alone 5 are opening or commencing buildout along Peachtree between 8th and 12th.

In the last 1-3 years people have begun sticking around a little longer and some retailers have been successful (most have not).  The sidewalks along Peachtree have only gotten somewhat crowded consistently in the last couple of years, and most are still suburbanites just enjoying a stroll, a meal and a drink (or they are going to an event or a museum).

The parking issue/3rd party contract with an enforcement agency has now come under fire, and the city is even considering paying the $8M to terminate contract.  This is only arising because of the recent growth in pedestrians and business owners believe that their business is not seeing a corresponding uptick because pedestrians "are already paying to park" and subsequently don't want to pay to then shop in Midtown.

Now 2 high-rise rental buildings are UC, a 12 floor hotel is wrapping up, a new 24 floor high-rise has been announced and land is becoming more and more scarce.  Still, due to lack of transit and the mentality of the car, all new highrises are being built with large garages (now to the side instead of as a podium to cut down on cost).  Conversations are developing about how to eventually change the code to require a lower parking ratio.  More people are living and STAYING in Midtown (including myself...I vowed this year to avoid using my car on weekends).

Bottom line: this has been a multi-decadal transition that still has a LONG LONG LONG way to go.  Jacksonville can partly force it with better land planning and zoning, but ultimately it's going to mostly be a natural progression that results from unbearable traffic, rising land costs, lack of availability of land, and city investment in the core (thereby making it attractive for people to visit and play in, and potentially live in).


Sorry for the long post, but it's just a solid example of reality.  Oh - further proof:

The firm I work for has two retail developments in intown Atlanta and one in downtown Nashville and one in downtown Chattanooga.

The most successful of these by far is a warehouse rehab with free parking in a garage and a backlot.

The second most successful is in Chattanooga, which has a garage and some retailers validate (and parking is cheap).

The third most successful is on Peachtree St in Midtown, and is below 500 condos.  It has a very successful restaurant, hair salon, Jimmy Johns, UPS Store, and a not so successful high end boutique (selling Jack Spade and Gant and Billy Reid and their own private label...the thousands of nearby gays are still not enough to support).  As I said before, restaurants are big in Midtown and we are negotiating 2 leases with restaurants for the final 2 suites.  Parking is "not cheap" and definitely not abundant.  Due to the price we paid, we can really only justify $35+ rents, which for a risky retail environment like Midtown only restaurants are willing to pay.

The least successful is in SoBro Nashville, 1 block from Broad St, caddy corner from the best office tower in TN, across from the new Omni/MCCC.  Lots of stuff just NOW happening, but over the past 3 years we have signed one lease, and that retail is below 335 condos (all but one sold out).  It's rents are CHEAP and the tenant improvement allowances expensive.  We are trying to dispose of the retail as soon as we can.  There is NO parking available for retail shoppers.  And downtown Nashville parking can be expensive depending.

Lesson?  It's all about parking.

[skooba]

Quite the contrary... you're in denial if you drink a developers kool-aid calling an auto-centric mall that lacks basic amenities such as proper sidewalks as being a 'walkable urban environment'.

Here are two 'lifestyle centers' in comparable suburban locations: 

Reston Town Center (Virgina-an exurb of DC quite comparable to the Southside)



Markets at Town Center (Jacksonville)



Notice any glaring differences?

As someone who grew up just outside of Reston Town Center I notice a glaring difference.  You cherry picked your pictures.  RTC has a Best Buy off to the side of it similar to SJTC, and if you posted that picture, they would look identical.  I used to go to RTC to watch movies, and park in the big public parking garage for free.  There weren't many big buildings there in the beginning, although there are now. 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not defending SJTC, I really dislike what that place has become, but I think your post is a bit misleading.  RTC has gone vertical, but it wasn't always that way, and Northern Virginia is much more crowded than Jacksonville, that it made more sense to do it that way (plus there is a demand for housing there).

[copperfiend]

Spent some time in Charlotte a few months ago. It may be trivial but Whisky River has two locations, one in Charlotte and one in Jacksonville. Look at the two locations and figure out why one city is driving in neutral.