Riverside Avondale Is a Streetcar Suburb: Debunking Car Centricism

[thelakelander]

Yeah, Avondale has a pretty interesting multimodal oriented history.

[Ocklawaha]

The development Dashing Dan should be talking about is San Jose.  That one was actually designed to be one of the first automobile oriented suburbs in the city.  It was originally developed by Claude Nolan, the guy who owned one of the first automobile dealerships in Jacksonville.  It didn't have any streetcar lines.

Well, almost. San Jose was developed with a 'fine roadway' all the way from downtown. It had a dedicated non-stop bus service that picked up prospective buyers and passengers at the downtown bus terminal and drove directly to the community. One might say San Jose was developed by embryonic 'bus rapid transit.'

HOWEVER, according to news stories, when the City of South Jacksonville built 'The South Jacksonville Municipal Railway's,' in 1923, they had cash left over, thus the line was extended to 'San Jose.' "Far out into the country." It did not, as best as I've been able to uncover, make it across the little creeks north of Lakewood. According to an old USGS map I believe the line ended about the intersection of San Jose and Worth Dr. From appearances, the track, like much of our system was 'side of the road running.'

[thelakelander]

The original San Jose subdivision was south of Lakewood.

[Ocklawaha]

The original San Jose subdivision was south of Lakewood.

Yes, I wonder though based on the newspaper article, when they started the infill between San Jose and San Marco. In any case the article referred to the area as 'San Jose'. Interesting.

[Dashing Dan]

Thanks for confirming what everybody stated yesterday.

Lakelander, the funny thing about all of this is that you and I have never disagreed about anything that has been posted on this thread about Avondale's history.

[thelakelander]

^Hilarious, isn't it.

[Dashing Dan]

 - but somehow I don't feel like laughing.

Maybe someday, but not yet.

[Ocklawaha]

- but somehow I don't feel like laughing.

Maybe someday, but not yet.

We'll all laugh together as we board that Riverside/Avondale streetcar line and parking woes fade into the past! "Welcome aboard Dan, I'd like to introduce you to my friend Birney."

In a city ranked 21 of the top 35 cities ranked by freeway lane miles per 1,000 (.783 to be correct) it's time we look for a better solution to moving our people. BRT isn't it. In fact several little news tidbits out of Bogota, Railway Age Magazine, and some other sources I don't recall off hand are hinting at at disturbing high cost of BRT over the years when compared to rail. Have no fear though, we'll jump off that cliff too, our 'authority' says's so. Cha Ching!

[Ocklawaha]

A couple of interesting things here though.  Avondale was originally designed as a 4.5 block wide, 1 mile long subdivision, stretching from the river to Roosevelt.  Within that one mile stretch, there were two streetcar routes (Herschel and Roosevelt) leading back into the city.  So every resident was within walking distance of a streetcar route.  A multimodal friendly community where residents have viable mobility choices and options. What a concept.

Those lines ran from:

Bay to Myrtle - Edison (originally 'Electric Av') - Dellwood - Margaret - Myra - Stockton - College - (crosses railroad) - Plymouth - Edgewood. From College to Edgewood the track was on private right-of-way alongside the west side of the current CSX tracks.

the other was:

Bay to Riverside to Edison - Oak - King - St. Johns - Aberdeen - Herschel - San Juan - Grand - Baltic - Manitou - Ortega - Orange Park Road (Roosevelt) - Alegheny - Albermarle. From at least Fairfax southward, this was all side of the road running.

There were probably smallish control towers located at the railroad and Edison and at College.

[Dashing Dan]

Avondale was designed for cars.  That's an obvious historical fact that we - lakelander and I - both agree upon. 

Whether it was designed exclusively for cars, predominantly for cars, or predominantly for some other mode, none of that changes whether or not Avondale was designed for cars.

[JFman00]

Avondale was designed for cars.  That's an obvious historical fact that we - lakelander and I - both agree upon. 

Whether it was designed exclusively for cars, predominantly for cars, or predominantly for some other mode, none of that changes whether or not Avondale was designed for cars.

The only places "designed for cars" are parking lots and drive-thrus. Just about every other space serves multiple purposes, and the designs are different accordingly.

[Ocklawaha]

Mayan Paved Road Leading in to Shinkultic.


The Lycian Way over the old Greek road

The urban plan for Tenochtitlan, One noted contrast to the grid plan common in the neighborhood was the distinctive plat of the original Tenochtitian Subdivision developed in 1325.  Designed by noted Aztec landscape architects, Tenochtitlan reflected a more contemporary residential plan as evident by the use of curvilinear streets, pocket parks, and generous grassy right-of-ways defined by paseos and curbs.  Opening during the height of the Aztec Land Boon, Tenochtitlan was designed to accommodate the growing popularity of the automobile... some 585 years later.
BOB MANN

The Roman highway west of Asağı Narlı

Ah SHIT! Your right Dan, those damn Roman's DID it too, photographic proof they built their roads for automobiles after all...

The fact that you can drive a car down a Roman, Mayan, Inca or Greek road is not indicative of 'building for automobiles.' That Stockton and Ingle knew of automobiles there is no doubt, but automobiles were nearly as obscure in Jacksonville of 1910 then they were at Tenochtitlan. Would you extrapolate this out, knowing that Tenochtitlan is called Mexico City today, was thus designed for automobiles? If you talked with the late Mrs Ingle, who passed on Dec 11, of last year, as I did, you would REALLY know better.

[Dashing Dan]

That Stockton and Ingle knew of automobiles there is no doubt, but automobiles were nearly as obscure in Jacksonville of 1910 then they were at Tenochtitlan.

"Avondale" wasn't developed until 1925 and autos were becoming popular by that time.  What's your point here?

[Ocklawaha]

What has the history of the area got to do with a solution to the problem to be faced with people intensive development? We have what we have, and the reason for it just doesn't matter. However, it is not conceivable that Avondale and points west would have been created at all without the car to get residents to the central business district.

For those of us opposed to MM in the size proposed and the parking problem it will create, I say let's give our district Councilman a first-hand example of it. This coming Saturday night, let's all park cars in front of Jim Love's home and then go get them about 1:30 AM on Sunday.  He lives on the corner of Riverside and Edgewood.

in 1925 our daily streetcar ridership was roughly equal to the population of the entire city. Again automobiles WERE NOT the dominant or preferred mode of transportation.

Just as an aside, nobody in their right mind would suggest that Hitlers army's were not the most modern in the world in 1939-45. We've all seen endless film footage of the panzer's smashing everything before them. Operation Barbarossa, when the German's invaded Russian territory involved over 3.9 million troops... Guess how the amazing German 88MM field artillery traveled? HORSES. Even as late as 1939-45, horses still played an important part in transportation.

To ignore the history and the fabric that built the neighborhood and seek a modern automobile centric solution can only result in another 'modern neighborhood.' If a modern automobile focused community is what RAP wants by insisting on large surface parking lots for every business, then the modern 'urban creep' trickling down from 5-Point's will eventually overrun and destroy it. Driving down Park one can see various small businesses built into converted homes and their paved parking pads covering what were once elegant yards, this will only intensify as you struggle to accommodate the almighty car. Additional cars, regardless of your parking situation will only result in another road project, one that would probably be 'sold' to the residents as an 'amazing' new streetscape project.

The only way to prevent these types of problems from eventually eating Riverside/Avondale is to create fixed rail mass transit that actually goes somewhere. Imagine a starter system that runs from Bay and Newnan downtown all the way to Roosevelt Plaza, using Park, Herschel, San Juan and/or Roosevelt.  Job's at one end, Shopping at the other and dense residential and entertainment in the middle... Do this and Your free to move about the neighborhood.

That Stockton and Ingle knew of automobiles there is no doubt, but automobiles were nearly as obscure in Jacksonville of 1910 then they were at Tenochtitlan.

"Avondale" wasn't developed until 1925 and autos were becoming popular by that time.  What's your point here?

By the summer of 1920, several wealthy investors led by Telfair Stockton had assembled a large tract of land including all of Edgewood and the adjoining riverfront property, at a cost of over $500,000. They developed an exclusive subdivision that would overshadow all of the smaller developments around it. Stockton chose the name 'Avondale' after a subdivision near James R. Challen's former home in Cincinnati. COJ

Just as a point of reference: The Year 1942

On January 16, 1942 a young Lt Ed Ramsey led his 27-man Troop G of the US 26Th Cavalry Regiment (Philippine Scouts) in a charge against Japanese infantry in the village of Morong. Mounted on his horse Bryn Awryn, a chestnut gelding, Lt Ramsey led the last American cavalry charge to victory and was awarded the Silver Star after the war.

[Dashing Dan]

in 1925 our daily streetcar ridership was roughly equal to the population of the entire city. Again automobiles WERE NOT the dominant or preferred mode of transportation.

It's a simple fact that in 1925, Avondale was designed to appeal to automobile owners.