Riverside Avondale Is a Streetcar Suburb: Debunking Car Centricism

[Dashing Dan]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

[Ocklawaha]

is it fair to allow exceptions to developers to solve "problems" that only are created by their own site plans and business intentions?

I don't think it's really fair to blame these "problems" on the MM site plan.  The perceived parking "problems" have not been caused by MM (after all, they haven't even opened yet)- they are ongoing.  Might MM contribute to the problem? Possibly.  However, every business and merchant in the Shoppes helps to contribute to the parking issue- whether they be a boutique or whether they are a restaurant. The last one in should not bear the burden of everyone. (fair-share comes to mind).

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

THIS IS WHAT BUILT RIVERSIDE - AVONDALE...

Can anyone in this city imagine what this would do as a traffic, parking and development solution generator? Just in case anyone is actually wondering the streetcar in this photo is currently in operation... AND FOR SALE. For about 1/4 the cost of one of JTA'S BRT hybrid buses, we could actually take a small step toward a much larger solution.

IE: Start with a single car connecting a parking area FSCJ? and King Street... Then add a car and cover 5 Points, then...etc...
Trouble is this would require functional thought at City Hall, and a Professional Transit Agency not distracted by road building, unfortunately we have neither.

OCKLAWAHA

[Kay]

Ock:  What's the cost of this car?

[fsujax]

There is plenty of density in the core to support streetcars, especially Riverside.

[cline]

There is plenty of density in the core to support streetcars, especially Riverside.

Yes.  The streetcar density myth has been debunked ad nauseum on this website and has been dis-proven in practice in numerous other cities across the county.  However, the fact still remains, we need some sort of alternative transportation- whether it be streetcar or something else.

[thelakelander]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

Don't get so defensive before reading carefully.  Check the bolded part.  I didn't say it wasn't designed for cars.  I said it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  I stand by that statement.  Check the city's historical development pattern outline and you'll find that the first auto oriented suburbs were platted later.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock:  What's the cost of this car?

Birney Street Car #636. This is a very historic and unique car. New comparable units are going for $900,000! Beautifully maintained and presently leased and operating in a revenue service. Car is in great mechanical condition and is air conditioned.

Located in Texas

Price: $222,000


Here is another style for sale, the ubiquitous PCC.

There you have it Kay, would that any one of us could actually walk into Mayor Browns office and lay this on his desk. I also know of a double ended PCC car for sale for $60,000. The PCC is a very early attempt at streamlined 'modern' streetcars, something Jacksonville missed out on for selling out to General Motors, oh, I mean 'Motor Transit Company' a division of 'National City Lines.' Instead we got 'modern' buses and the groundwork for our dysfunctional mass transit system was in place.

[JeffreyS]

RAP here is your chance, Avondale now is the time start screaming the the Kings Street Streetcar to downtown not exclude you.  Don't let them ignore you.  Squeaky wheel time before they break ground.

[Dashing Dan]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

Don't get so defensive before reading carefully.  Check the bolded part.  I didn't say it wasn't designed for cars.  I said it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  I stand by that statement.  Check the city's historical development pattern outline and you'll find that the first auto oriented suburbs were platted later.

You're splitting hairs here.  Avondale was designed for cars, period.

[Dashing Dan]

I'm  done here.

[thelakelander]

Dashing Dan is getting his panties wet for no reason.  I never said it wasn't designed for cars.  What's the purpose of trying to paint my quote in that light?  It's not my fault Telfair Stockton's crew designed it as a multimodal neighborhood with streetcars being the dominant transportation mode or it having a mix of walkable uses within close proximity of each other.  That was the urban living characteristics of that era.  What's the point in trying to rewrite history? 

[JeffreyS]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

Don't get so defensive before reading carefully.  Check the bolded part.  I didn't say it wasn't designed for cars.  I said it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  I stand by that statement.  Check the city's historical development pattern outline and you'll find that the first auto oriented suburbs were platted later.

You're splitting hairs here.  Avondale was designed for cars, period.

Many of the homes in Avondale were designed without driveways. How can you claim they were designed for cars period.

[thelakelander]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

Don't get so defensive before reading carefully.  Check the bolded part.  I didn't say it wasn't designed for cars.  I said it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  I stand by that statement.  Check the city's historical development pattern outline and you'll find that the first auto oriented suburbs were platted later.

You're splitting hairs here.  Avondale was designed for cars, period.

Many of the homes in Avondale were designed without driveways. How can you claim they were designed for cars period.

He's right, in saying that Avondale was designed to accommodate cars.  However, that's not what I said in the statement that he was attempting to twist.  My original statement said that it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  That's a fact, based off the historical development pattern.  I don't see the reason in having a side show circus break out in debating historical facts.  Accept it and move on to finding viable solutions.

[mtraininjax]

Many of the homes in Avondale were designed without driveways. How can you claim they were designed for cars period.

Many of the houses also feature alleys where the residents would park. This is where some of the well to do vagrants live, in case you would like to see how the other half live in Avondale.

must have been interesting with the horses

Still have a hitching post in my front yard. Way cool!

[cline]

Any residential household with a car parked in public ROW also is a contributor to the perceived problem because the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

Avondale was designed for cars.  Look it up.

Don't get so defensive before reading carefully.  Check the bolded part.  I didn't say it wasn't designed for cars.  I said it wasn't designed for cars to be the dominant mode of transportation.  I stand by that statement.  Check the city's historical development pattern outline and you'll find that the first auto oriented suburbs were platted later.

You're splitting hairs here.  Avondale was designed for cars, period.

Many of the homes in Avondale were designed without driveways. How can you claim they were designed for cars period.

Interesting you bring this up.  One of the arguments at the meeting last night was that many of the homes around the Shoppes only have single-car driveways and that because of this, the other car (assuming a family with 2 cars) would need to park on the street (in order not to block the car in the driveway).  Unfortunately, this is not how it works.  The street is public ROW and anyone is able to park there.  Just because your house faces the street doesn't mean you get some sort of "variance" from the city that allows you, and you only, to park there.  Anyone is allowed to park along the streets.