The Avenues Mall

[fieldafm]

I get it, anything progressive to a suburban mall = a typical 'meh' response from alotta urban freaks;

No, not at all.

I don't have a problem with the lifestyle center concept one bit(they sure do fund my paycheck)... but once you see what a good one looks like... versus what the Town Center is, you will see how pathetically bad it is layed out.  Traffic congestion in the area is a large problem now, and unfortunately b/c bad decisions kept being made-you simply aren't going to be able to build your way out of it b/c the damage is already done. 

I am far from the person that is negative about this town and whines and complains about how anywhere, USA is better than Jax... but when you allow something to be built to the least common denominator, and allow exception after exception to be given in the design and function of something like the Town Center... well, you reap what you sow.  I for one am all about the Southside becoming much more dense.  But to have a positive fiscal impact on the city, the kind of fiscally responsible density that is needed in the area is not happening. 

Seriously, how the flip can a mall not allow you to walk from one side to the other?   Try walking from Best Buy to Dillards.  You won't even find a sidewalk that allows you to cross the street.. nor a sidewalk that allows you to navigate the two sprawling parking lots you'll cross.  You will literally get run over by cars darting around the street and parking lots.  Believe me, I have dodged cars many times at the Town Center.  I've never played Frogger with cars at the Town Center in Reston, VA(a sprawling exurb of DC, but at least they got a lifestyle center concept correct). 

[wsansewjs]

...USA is better than Jax... but when you allow something to be built to the least common denominator...

How the heck can you compare a country to a city to support your argument?

-Josh

[cline]

...USA is better than Jax... but when you allow something to be built to the least common denominator...

How the heck can you compare a country to a city to support your argument?

-Josh

"anywhere, USA" = fill in "anywhere" with any city in the USA.

As for the SJTC.  I agree with the others that it is horribly laid out.  Trying to get into the town center by exiting JTB onto Gate Parkway makes me want drink battery acid.  That area is only going to get worse too.  That's one of the reasons I don't really go there.  When I do, I come in off of 9A.  The Avenues on the other hand, no problems getting in or out.

[JUGrad]

The H&M website has posted a store manager position for Jacksonville...  A friend of mine who works at the Avenues told me that they're going into the space previously vacated by Potterybarn as well as the former Children's Place spot upstairs for a 2-level store.  Finally, something good NOT going to the Town Center...

So....  it's kinda cool that we're going to be getting an H&M here huh...

[Doctor_K]

I get it, anything progressive to a suburban mall = a typical 'meh' response from alotta urban freaks;

Seriously, how the flip can a mall not allow you to walk from one side to the other?   Try walking from Best Buy to Dillards.  You won't even find a sidewalk that allows you to cross the street.. nor a sidewalk that allows you to navigate the two sprawling parking lots you'll cross.

Not to split hairs too finely here, but technically we're dealing with two separate (granted, still very auto-centric) developments.  Best Buy and the rest of the stores in the Markets are NOT the Town Center.  Big Island Drive separates the SJTC from the Markets at Town Center.

It is absolutely possible to walk the distance of the Town Center from Ross/Famous Footwear to Capital Grille/Mitchell's Fish Market, and all points in between (including Dillards and Dicks).

Now, could they/should they have done something within SJTC to improve the time it takes to go from Ross to Mitchell's?  Most certainly.  A tram or trolley running the north-south spine would have been cool.  As would residential above the retail, but that's been discussed and bemoaned ad nauseum.

At the end of the day kids, the SJTC is more walkable than you think.

[copperfiend]

You don't have to fight for parking, go into one store, go back to your car, and then fight for parking at a second store, as you do if you (for instance) wanted to go to both Game Stop and Dick's at the SJTC.

Why couldn't you walk from GameStop to Dick's at the SJTC?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Not to split hairs too finely here, but technically we're dealing with two separate (granted, still very auto-centric) developments.  Best Buy and the rest of the stores in the Markets are NOT the Town Center.  Big Island Drive separates the SJTC from the Markets at Town Center...
At the end of the day kids, the SJTC is more walkable than you think.

Kind of like saying that King St and 5 Points are seperate areas that fall under the Riverside umbrella, but separated by Stockton St?  A quick scale off of Google maps puts me at .7 miles from Old Navy to Capital Grille and .75 miles from Pele's Pizza to Mossfire Grille.  How often do people make that walk?

[fieldafm]

Not to split hairs too finely here, but technically we're dealing with two separate (granted, still very auto-centric) developments.  Best Buy and the rest of the stores in the Markets are NOT the Town Center.  Big Island Drive separates the SJTC from the Markets at Town Center.

With all due respect, you are splitting hairs b/c I can walk across from the Wal Mart development at Beach and Hodges to the Target development(which are two seperate entities-just like SJTC and Markets are) while still staying on a sidewalk and have adequate cross walks at every intersection, AS REQUIRED by zoning... yet I can't cross b/w the two developments at the Town Center which was GRANTED(among many) an exception to zoning in this regard.  Zoning should in no way encourage COMPLETE auto-centric movement like this and to give this overall area COUNTLESS exceptions and PUDs that force complete auto-centric movement in this area and lets things be as least dense as humanly possible is completely maddening and assinine. 

It is absolutely possible to walk the distance of the Town Center from Ross/Famous Footwear to Capital Grille/Mitchell's Fish Market, and all points in between (including Dillards and Dicks).

Correct.  And circulator systems like a PCT trolley bus service is definately needed.  Unfortunately, JTA thought otherwise.

[thelakelander]

Has anyone noticed that SJTC is eerily similar to Gateway, which was laid out over 50 years ago.  The major design difference is one half of Gateway was an enclosed shopping mall while SJTC's "walkable" corridor is open air.


Gateway from a 1960s sanborn map.

One can easily take a long circuitous route by foot or risk getting run over in large surface parking lots.

[Doctor_K]

... yet I can't cross b/w the two developments at the Town Center which was GRANTED(among many) an exception to zoning in this regard.  Zoning should in no way encourage COMPLETE auto-centric movement like this and to give this overall area COUNTLESS exceptions and PUDs that force complete auto-centric movement in this area and lets things be as least dense as humanly possible is completely maddening and assinine. 

There are sidewalks and crosswalks to get you across Big Island Drive from the Best Buy & Toys R Us Markets to SJTC.  You can cross at either the intersection of Big Island/Town Center Pkwy or further up Big Island near Blackfinn/Whiskey River. 

The sidewalks then continue up to the restaurants cluster (Mitchell's et al) as well as into the parking lots/Town Center proper (via Town Crossing Dr).  I can't recall offhand if Buckhead Branch (that runs past CompUSA) has sidewalks or not.

Correct.  And circulator systems like a PCT trolley bus service is definately needed.  Unfortunately, JTA thought otherwise.

On this, I agree.  Or even a mini tram/streetcar.  It can be completely gimmicky and cheesy.  But if it's still a streetcar on rails, and it's at the SJTC (or hell, RCMP and Oakleaf for that matter), it will indirectly raise awareness for 'real rail' ridership elsewhere.

If JTA is the culprit, then we all know where and why this thing truly fell short.

[blizz01]

So anyway...what's new at the Avenues Mall?

[fieldafm]

You can cross at either the intersection of Big Island/Town Center Pkwy or further up Big Island near Blackfinn/Whiskey River. 

No, you cannot.
The sidewalk at that crosswalk leads you to a grass area on the opposite side.  There is a side walk on the opposite side (again, with no crosswalk in b/w) that then abruptly ends as the massive sprawling parking lot begins. 

I won't leave work until it gets dark out... but I'll take pictures over the weekend. 

[thelakelander]

So anyway...what's new at the Avenues Mall?

JUGrad mentioned H&M a while back.  I'm not much of a shopper but I do get my hair cut at a barbershop there ocassionally.  Other than it seems Avenues is holding its own but it would be nice if there were a larger variety of eateries in the immediate area.

[Tacachale]

So anyway...what's new at the Avenues Mall?

I don't know, I haven't been there for 4 years and have no immediate plans to go back.

[copperfiend]

So anyway...what's new at the Avenues Mall?

A Moe's in the food court?