Walkable Commercial Districts: 8th & Main

[iloveionia]

I object.  Three Layers and Sweet Pete's do not cater specifically to local residents.  Quite simply they would not survive.  They have built reputations (Three Layers) or come with reputation (Sweet Pete's) and found their niche in Jacksonville.  Locals go, don't get me wrong, but they don't survive on us. 

Main Street was better back in 2007. Then it died.  A primary reason for commercial properties to sit vacant (the same with residential properties) is deadbeat and absentee owners.  Period.  Fat Cat Grocery is currently for sale around 4th/Main and at last look it was at the 130k mark.  That's not a bad price for Main Street commercial, and the property is in good shape.  It's about the best thing for sale/rent wise we have. 

Main Street is the thorough-fare for folks working downtown and coming from the north.  There is indeed a lot of traffic.  However there is nothing there for them.  No retail, few eateries, and few reasons to stop.  Because it is a highway, there are limited stops and when you are driving too fast on this highway, what can you see?   

I love Springfield.  There is so much potential.  There needs to be incentives to come to Main Street.  All business owners need to be welcomed (something is better than nothing, right?) as abandoned blight = no bueno.  We have talked about this adnosium on other threads.  We need clusters of like businesses, bohemian style, thrift/vintage/retro style.  Springfield has to be nice to any new business coming in, most times I think we (Springfield) are our own worst enemy. 

Springfield will not improve if Main Street remains as it does currently.  That's a great big duh.

[strider]

Everyone assumes the businesses like Three Layers and Uptown are doing great.  Even the owners may tell the average person so.  However, the cold reality is often much different when they sit down and pay those bills.  Any small business has it hard, even in the best of times.  Here today in Springfield competing with all of Jax, it is about as difficult as it comes.

The building owners are not these blinded by greed villains.  They are realists.  They see the rents charged in other areas.  They see what it costs to own and maintain the buildings.  While a few of them have failed miserably in the maintaining department, it is mostly because they can not justify the additional costs on what is a huge loss to start with.  Not condoning the lack of maintenance, but simply explaining it.

People bought high and now can't afford to maintain or even sell.  I would say the majority of these so called "deadbeat owners" have invested in their properties.  They care and they are trying hard to just hold on, pretty much like many of us out here.  Just drive down Main and you will see that a decent number of buildings have freshened facades and are kept clean and tidy.  They are still empty though, are they not?

Main Street was better in 2003 through 2007. While the reasons it is worse now are many and varied and while we often find specific things to blame, the bottom line is most likely the local economy just could not support the various businesses anymore and the owners got tired of coming out of pocket, pockets that were mostly empty by then anyway.

Main Street construction, as road construction always does, certainly hurt.  Meanwhile, times change and places like pawn shops and tax preps are struggling.  Building owners are desperate for enough rent income to cover the expenses and so listen to their realtors and try to rent to the store front churches which seem more able to pay higher rents then the retail Main Street needs.

Like we learned with residential, blaming the owners and trying to get them to pay for their "sins" does nothing in the end but hurt all of Historic Springfield.  We need to help rather than hinder.  Until we all learn that, Main Street will continue to have those tumble weeds.

On this block of Main/ 8th, there is new opportunity.  With the new bank opening up, there will be foot traffic.  Smart marketing of those store fronts and getting the trust of and therefore the cooperation of those building owners will be key.

Helping rather than hindering works.  Now is SAMBA and Springfield up for the task?

[simms3]

^^^^Yes!  That sounds very reasonable and realistic!  There is not one deep pocket in Springfield, let's not forget that.

Jacksonville was hit so hard by the recession.  Families that have been mentioned on this very site as set for life due to their holdings went bankrupt (or rather the basis/business that provided their wealth went bankrupt).  It's hard to even say there are very many remaining wealthy working people in the city anymore, let alone the small time Springfield landlord.  Businesses can't find loans to expand, people don't have the money to support the expansion anyway, etc.  Just like the rest of us have home mortgages and bills to pay, Springfield landlords have the same situation, but took the added risk of additional mortgages (and those mortgages in particular may have short maturities).

Now, someone please tell me about SPAR?  That organization does not seem to have any friends anywhere, so it must be doing something horribly wrong.  What's the scoop?

[thelakelander]

Given the structural conditions of most of the buildings along Main, perhaps more help is needed than SAMBA and Springfield?  It would seem like some sort of incentive program may be needed that makes things feasible for building owners and small business owners.

[avs]

I have been saying that forever lakelander.  There needs to be an incentive - like the city incentives that spurred residential development in SPR originally.  If the LISC money had been used to bridge a rent gap between landlords and tenants for several years, that would be an incentive for both parties.  LISC money gone, and with the city finances what they are, the incentive needs to be found somewhere else.  Perhaps the city can give some type of tax relief for a certain amount of years to landlords who lower their rents to whatever price per square foot that would be amenable to small businesses.  Just ideas, this isn't my area of expertise.  But incentives are what will make a bridge between the landlords and tenants.

[thelakelander]

What happened to the LISC money? What was it spent on?

[strider]

There are many spaces available that do not need the structural work some seem concerned about.  Once those spaces are up and running, it would seem the incentive for those new roofs and structural issues would be the  possibility of getting spaces rented.

The best help Springfield and SMABA could provide to those un-rent-able spaces might be to help "mothball" them - make them look presentable to help get the other spaces rented. Cheap and relatively easy to do.  The hardest thing at this point would be to get the trust and then the cooperation of the disillusioned property owners.

An organization that actually succeeded at something on Main could get LISC or the city interested again which might help as well by providing limited funding to get emergency repairs made. Gap funding on rents would certainly help as well. That gap funding seems like it would also be incentive for the needed repairs.

[thelakelander]

Is there a database of ready to move in spaces readily available?

[simms3]

I think it's going to take more than rent cuts.  Rent is already so low, lower than anywhere in the city and at the bottom of the rent pile anywhere.  Potential tenants know how low the rent is.  That's most likely not why they're not moving to Springfield.  There are other underlying concerns and problems.  Can we be brutally honest about the neighborhood and say that it could be the neighborhood itself, still?

It's one square mile, not a lot of people, especially middle class and higher consumers there.  Not even when you pull parts of the northside.  Tenants can lower their costs all they want by expanding or relocating to Springfield where rents are already as low as they can get, but they still have to make a certain profit margin for it to be worth it.  They probably would have to take out a loan or open a line of credit, which is next to impossible nowadays.  And when credit opens up more, it's not going to open up for risky business ventures in risky neighborhoods (or banks would not have learned a thing from the recession).

The city or someone needs to act as a small business lender for Springfield commercial to come back.  It's that simple.  SPAR needs to get out of the way to let this happen, etc.  Just as multifamily developments require a construction loan that reverts to a mini-perm, a small business opening up in Springfield will need initial help to get built out and started, and then some sort of line of credit with frequent drawing power in the beginning to support getting started.  Landlords may not have the pockets to give a tenant money for improvements, and simple rent abatement won't work because it's money saved rather than money put in your pocket.

Moreover, it will have to be a slow and steady process.  Tenants are going to look at traffic counts as indicators of how they will do.  I'm still blown away by how many people on here think that area is highly trafficked.  It's a dead zone.  There might be a 15 minute rush in the morning and afternoon, but nobody is driving Main and most of the people walking around during the day are not middle class and up consumers.  That's the simple truth of the matter, and that's not going to attract tenants.  Sweet Pete's is run by a guy that one can say has had success in the past and has fairly deep pockets.  As someone said, Three Layers has a great reputation but is not a money tree.

Mack Bissette of Atlanta came down to Springfield and originally found successes.  He has now left, and now with the hugeeee success of many larger neighborhoods in his own hometown, I'm sure in the back of his mind he is asking "what if I stayed put in Atlanta where the central county has an average hh income of $93K and white flight is occurring in reverse, still?"

Places like Springfield are going to have to become "cool" again before it is successful.  The "cool" factor depends on a few influential people saying it is cool again.  People are sheep.  These influential people could be a local celebrity chef who decides to open up his next big restaurant there.  It could be Jennifer Johnson deciding that her next gallery will be there.  It could be Preston Haskell making some investments in the area.  These kind of people get quoted in magazines, get press attention, have deep pocket friends, are respected, are known, etc.  I think there are really only 2 locally known celeb chefs, and one is already expanding, so that's out for now.

The other problem is these kinds of neighborhoods do best with young, upwardly mobile professionals.  Jacksonville does not have a large population of those.  When I read the neighbor profiles on MySpringfield, it's always some navy family, or young family, or elderly gay couple, etc.  Young singles or young couples *without* kids transform these kinds of neighborhoods better than anyone else.  All of the Ortega/San Marco kids with poppa's money to buy first homes are doing jack diddly squat and moving to the beach or staying near mom and dad (they are NOT looking at Springfield or even downtown or anywhere else cool).  It's just not cool yet to go to Springfield.  Jacksonville in general is not yet a cool city like some of its peers or larger counterparts.

[simms3]

I can look at commercial space available on Main today.  I think I already know what I'll find.

[cline]

Just pointing out that vibrancy is not necessarily dependent on traffic counts.

Few national/credit retailers will locate to any space on a street with less than 20,000 cars going by a day.  High end tenants want either a major urban shopping street, a major mall in a wealthy area, or a street in a nice area with at least 50,000 cars going by a day.

I can see tumbleweeds blowing down Main at its current state.  I hope that it improves, but cars or not, it's not vibrant, and cars are the best measure for vibrancy here in America, even in Manhattan (along with sidewalk people counts).

Sorry but what you're referring to are basically malls and lifestyle centers with a bunch of chains like SJTC, RCMP, and the Avenues.  Yes, those places like high traffic counts.  I'm referring to more organic community corridors such as Avondale, San Marco and 5 Points.  These places don't have major chains but that doesn't make them any less desirable than say the SJTC (at least in IMO).  Main Street can be vibrant in this way.  I would seriously disagree with your assertion that cars are the best measure of vibrancy.

When I read the neighbor profiles on MySpringfield, it's always some navy family, or young family, or elderly gay couple, etc.  Young singles or young couples *without* kids transform these kinds of neighborhoods better than anyone else.

I've met many people that live in Springfield that are both young singles and young couples.  Young couples with kids as well.

[thelakelander]

Great posts.  I'm really enjoying the discussion taking place on this topic and hope it will be a positive impact on the future of Main and other struggling commercial districts throughout the city.

The other problem is these kinds of neighborhoods do best with young, upwardly mobile professionals.  Jacksonville does not have a large population of those.  When I read the neighbor profiles on MySpringfield, it's always some navy family, or young family, or elderly gay couple, etc.  Young singles or young couples *without* kids transform these kinds of neighborhoods better than anyone else.  All of the Ortega/San Marco kids with poppa's money to buy first homes are doing jack diddly squat and moving to the beach or staying near mom and dad (they are NOT looking at Springfield or even downtown or anywhere else cool).  It's just not cool yet to go to Springfield.  Jacksonville in general is not yet a cool city like some of its peers or larger counterparts.

With no data to back me up at the moment, I'd say that Jacksonville does have its fair share of mobile young professionals, compared to second tier peer cities such as Memphis, Richmond, Norfolk and Louisville.  However, there's a difference between a mobile young professional and an urban pioneer.  Although there are exceptions to the rule, a mobile professional is more likely to move to a city that offers the lifestyle/urban atmosphere they seek than invest in a neighborhood that doesn't offer the environment that attracts them.  This pretty much happens on a routine basis with a good segment the mobile population nationwide.  They simply decide to leave or live in an area of town that gives them the most bang for their buck.  When the craving comes for something a place like Jax may lack, they also travel.

[avs]

The other problem is these kinds of neighborhoods do best with young, upwardly mobile professionals.  Jacksonville does not have a large population of those.  When I read the neighbor profiles on MySpringfield, it's always some navy family, or young family, or elderly gay couple, etc.  Young singles or young couples *without* kids transform these kinds of neighborhoods better than anyone else.  All of the Ortega/San Marco kids with poppa's money to buy first homes are doing jack diddly squat and moving to the beach or staying near mom and dad (they are NOT looking at Springfield or even downtown or anywhere else cool).  It's just not cool yet to go to Springfield.  Jacksonville in general is not yet a cool city like some of its peers or larger counterparts.

I have been selling residential real estate in Springfield for close to 8 years now.  The demographics of the people who are moving to SPR has changed in the past say 2-3 years.  It used to be urban pioneers and people who were moving to Jax from other areas of the country who saw the potential in SPR.  More recently it is people from Jax that are seeing that SPR is a great/cool neighborhood.  People are moving here from Riverside, San Marco, and the beaches.  People buy in SPR now because of the community, not because of commercial stuff.  They come to the events (and there are a ton of them) and they love the neighbors.  It doesn't work like other communities where people drive around and decide to live there because of cool services within walking distance.  The decision to buy happens when they begin interacting with the neighbors and seeing that there is a real sense of community here. 

We would all love to see the commercial corridor develop, but the lack of services isn't stopping people from buying here.

[Springfield Chicken]

I agree with Amanda.  People who are buying in Springfield are not basing that decision on the commercial part of the neighborhood.  As it grows it will be a bonus for all of us in the future.  If you want to see just how hard it is to make a business thrive in these times take a look at all the businesses in the Riverside corridor that have closed in the last few years.  Those areas are shopping destinations and they still have businesses going under.  Main St is an even harder place to survive right now.  I applaud those Springfield businesses like Uptown Market, Three Layers, Sweet Pete's, Tres Leches, and all the others that are riding out this recession in style.  Now I just made myself hungry so which one is closest?  Hmmm.

[Debbie Thompson]

Hola, Chicken!  Hola is close to you.  Chicken Enchilada Verde....yum