Jacksonville Landing Says Garage Not Enough

[vicupstate]

Frankly, DT Jacksonville should be THRILLED to get either a Walgreens OR an Office Depot, given it's pathetic track record.

Please.

[thelakelander]

Is it being viewed as a strip mall by Sleiman or is this assumed?  The plan discussed in the passed treated it more as an urban entertainment/dining complex.  Unfortunately, it's been tied up in politics.  So I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Sleiman doesn't recognize the differences between the Landing and a typical strip mall.  Oh and yes.  We should be more than happy to get an Office Depot, Walgreens or even a McDonalds in downtown.

[fieldafm]

Garden Guy, whatever you can say about Toney Sleiman, he's certainly not a poor developer or commercial real estate manager. If you doubt how successful his company is in Jacksonville, just go around town and see how many successful shopping centers, strip malls and other commercial properties display a Lebanese cedar tree flag or emblem - that's the Sleimans. It's very unlikely that the Landing is suffering any more under Sleiman than it would be under anyone else.

I don't know Mr. Sleiman, nor do I know anything about what kind of reputation he may or may not have, but I think this may be something to think about.  A developer/commercial real estate manager might be quite successful in their niche, which in this case seems to be suburban strip mall-type developments, but if they try to impose what has 'always worked' for them in an enivironment that may not be what they're used to, their former success might not be duplicated.

I've argued before that the Landing should not be looked upon like a strip mall that happens to be downtown on the river, that it should be approached as an unique, one-of-kind entity.  Maybe it's true that the Landing would be suffering just as much under anyone else, but the possibility exists that if someone other than a suburban strip mall developer had purchased the Landing, who had a unique vision of what the property could be, then maybe we could look forward to the possilibility of something more than a Walgreens or an Office Depot.

See, this is where you don't have an understanding of the reality of what has been going on.  Making general assumptions without knowing the facts clouds the conversation.

There was a major plan in place to redo the Landing and completely transform the structure of the complex... that got held up b/c the city didnt want to sell the land underneath the Landing.  It's been said on here a few times, but the structure of the lease is prohibitive from a financing standpoint.

There was also a plan in place to bring a major player into the Landing... that deal fell through b/c of parking.  Plain and simple.

Two years ago, the Landing opened up to the Off the Grid program and gave FREE rent to artists and took over the Farmers market from Hemming Plaza.

This YEAR, the Landing has been talking with some great new tenants with VERY fair deals... has been looking at some very innovative plans with the food court... and presently Chriss Flagg is presenting plans to use some of the DVI facade grant to open up the area facing Laura Street to pedestrians without having to cut into the building.

All the while... the city has closed the street in front of the Landing for well over a year-effectively killing off the dying food court business... Starbucks left(believe me, they weren't 'chased off' by exhorbant rents as some on here falesly claim) b/c they saw the drastic results of an eroding population downtown... and now the Riverside Trolley will no longer be shuffling lunchtime customers to the Landing... but instead will be dropping off people at the new courthouse(which makes no sense).

And as a final parting shot to the old family feud... Peyton gave money to people he liked to build yet another parking garage downtown, that is as useful as a hamburger at a vegan convention and which has nothing to do with the city's obligation to provide parking to the Landing.

All the while, the Landing is STILL the centerpiece downtown.  It's quite amazing, given the politics people play with it.

When are we going to what's RIGHT for the city, instead of including/excluding only certain people that we find personally favorable?

[Tacachale]

Garden Guy, whatever you can say about Toney Sleiman, he's certainly not a poor developer or commercial real estate manager. If you doubt how successful his company is in Jacksonville, just go around town and see how many successful shopping centers, strip malls and other commercial properties display a Lebanese cedar tree flag or emblem - that's the Sleimans. It's very unlikely that the Landing is suffering any more under Sleiman than it would be under anyone else.

I don't know Mr. Sleiman, nor do I know anything about what kind of reputation he may or may not have, but I think this may be something to think about.  A developer/commercial real estate manager might be quite successful in their niche, which in this case seems to be suburban strip mall-type developments, but if they try to impose what has 'always worked' for them in an enivironment that may not be what they're used to, their former success might not be duplicated.

I've argued before that the Landing should not be looked upon like a strip mall that happens to be downtown on the river, that it should be approached as an unique, one-of-kind entity.  Maybe it's true that the Landing would be suffering just as much under anyone else, but the possibility exists that if someone other than a suburban strip mall developer had purchased the Landing, who had a unique vision of what the property could be, then maybe we could look forward to the possilibility of something more than a Walgreens or an Office Depot.

I agree in principal, but I don't see that Sleiman is treating the landing like one of his suburban commercial developments. The Sleimans do have some experience in more urban areas, don't they own the Murray Hill town center, or part of it? Of course that's not on the scale of the Landing, but there's really nothing comprable to the Landing anywhere in the metro area. Some of their landing ideas sound pretty solid, like opening up the back so it's not just a huge wall facing the street.

And as Lakelander points out, there's also the problem that no one else was interested in buying the property even at a greatly reduced rate. I really don't believe this particular part of the problem is due to Sleiman's ownership.

[cline]

There was also a plan in place to bring a major player into the Landing... that deal fell through b/c of parking.  Plain and simple.

How many parking spots did this player say they needed? 

[thelakelander]

Here was that old redevelopment plan, which was quite impressive, imo.

[cline]

Is there a scan of that?  Also, didn't Chris Flagg do some mock-ups as part of the APA Conference visioning exercise when it was here a couple years ago?

[thelakelander]

I may have some old scans somewhere on MetJax but I'll have to spend sometime searching their archives.  Here is a link to the APA stuff.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-re-imagining-the-jacksonville-landing

[duvaldude08]

Garden Guy, whatever you can say about Toney Sleiman, he's certainly not a poor developer or commercial real estate manager. If you doubt how successful his company is in Jacksonville, just go around town and see how many successful shopping centers, strip malls and other commercial properties display a Lebanese cedar tree flag or emblem - that's the Sleimans. It's very unlikely that the Landing is suffering any more under Sleiman than it would be under anyone else.

I don't know Mr. Sleiman, nor do I know anything about what kind of reputation he may or may not have, but I think this may be something to think about.  A developer/commercial real estate manager might be quite successful in their niche, which in this case seems to be suburban strip mall-type developments, but if they try to impose what has 'always worked' for them in an enivironment that may not be what they're used to, their former success might not be duplicated.

I've argued before that the Landing should not be looked upon like a strip mall that happens to be downtown on the river, that it should be approached as an unique, one-of-kind entity.  Maybe it's true that the Landing would be suffering just as much under anyone else, but the possibility exists that if someone other than a suburban strip mall developer had purchased the Landing, who had a unique vision of what the property could be, then maybe we could look forward to the possilibility of something more than a Walgreens or an Office Depot.

See, this is where you don't have an understanding of the reality of what has been going on.  Making general assumptions without knowing the facts clouds the conversation.

There was a major plan in place to redo the Landing and completely transform the structure of the complex... that got held up b/c the city didnt want to sell the land underneath the Landing.  It's been said on here a few times, but the structure of the lease is prohibitive from a financing standpoint.

There was also a plan in place to bring a major player into the Landing... that deal fell through b/c of parking.  Plain and simple.

Two years ago, the Landing opened up to the Off the Grid program and gave FREE rent to artists and took over the Farmers market from Hemming Plaza.

This YEAR, the Landing has been talking with some great new tenants with VERY fair deals... has been looking at some very innovative plans with the food court... and presently Chriss Flagg is presenting plans to use some of the DVI facade grant to open up the area facing Laura Street to pedestrians without having to cut into the building.

All the while... the city has closed the street in front of the Landing for well over a year-effectively killing off the dying food court business... Starbucks left(believe me, they weren't 'chased off' by exhorbant rents as some on here falesly claim) b/c they saw the drastic results of an eroding population downtown... and now the Riverside Trolley will no longer be shuffling lunchtime customers to the Landing... but instead will be dropping off people at the new courthouse(which makes no sense).

And as a final parting shot to the old family feud... Peyton gave money to people he liked to build yet another parking garage downtown, that is as useful as a hamburger at a vegan convention and which has nothing to do with the city's obligation to provide parking to the Landing.

All the while, the Landing is STILL the centerpiece downtown.  It's quite amazing, given the politics people play with it.

When are we going to what's RIGHT for the city, instead of including/excluding only certain people that we find personally favorable?

I totally agree. The Landing is not the big bad boogie man everyone makes it out to be. I also read the article about the Fascade grants for the landing. I actually posted the article in one of the threads and no one even commented. (which was shocking).

[finehoe]

Frankly, DT Jacksonville should be THRILLED to get either a Walgreens OR an Office Depot, given it's pathetic track record.

No argument here, but with all the vacant retail space downtown, would any chain like these HAVE to locate at the Landing?

There was a major plan in place to redo the Landing and completely transform the structure of the complex...

Didn't MJ recently do a piece on all the "plans" drawn up for DT?  That and $3.95 will get you a cup o' joe.

[thelakelander]

Nothing will happen if we can't get past the personal political battle regarding the Landing.

[fieldafm]

Frankly, DT Jacksonville should be THRILLED to get either a Walgreens OR an Office Depot, given it's pathetic track record.

No argument here, but with all the vacant retail space downtown, would any chain like these HAVE to locate at the Landing?

There was a major plan in place to redo the Landing and completely transform the structure of the complex...

Didn't MJ recently do a piece on all the "plans" drawn up for DT?  That a $3.95 will get you a cup o' joe.

Maybe you have some inside knowledge that no one else does that Sleiman is negotiating with Office Depot to open a space in the Landing?  Or perhaps you are just putting words into people's mouths and making unfounded assumptions as before?

It's interesting that instead of looking at the FACTS... you just use sarcasm.  I fail to see how this is productive.

Everybody loves the MetJax Pub Crawls(I know the businesses we serve CERTAINLY do).  Bottom line, they would NEVER be possible without the Landing.

To claim and assume the Landing is trying to stick a square peg into a round hole is simply not true.

How many parking spots did this player say they needed? 

Think about this for a second... what's the largest restaurant chain in America?  Applebees.  If they wanted to set up shop downtown, they are going to need somewhere around 150 dedicated parking spots to open up.  That's not me making an assumption, that's the business reality of the situation.

Right now, the Landing has 250 dedicated spots... for the entire building and ALL of their tenants.

Not only is dedicated parking an issue on the business side of the world.. there is also a perception problem about parking.

Here's a true story: for the past 4 years... I have spent New Years Eve at Koja Sushi.  For $60 you get a riverview table on the patio to watch the fireworks and all you can eat/drink(beer/wine).  You don't have to be down in the 'crowd' and get to enjoy a FANTASTIC deal for what you get.  Try going to Savannah and get a riverfront table to watch NYE fireworks.

I had a friend that I invited last year.  She only agreed to come b/c I said 'I'll pay for you to valet and the security guard will walk you to the steps at Koja'.  Without this offer, she was too 'scared for her life' to come down there.

She gets there and calls and says 'the lot is full, I am going home'  I said well pay at a parking garage and I'll come get you.  She responds 'no, I don't want to get raped having to walk two blocks downtown'.

Ask any restaurant or retailer at the Landing about parking... and you will get an earful.  It's not the ONLY problem(downtown has PLENTY of those), but it's certainly a LARGE problem.

The deal we are talking about now ADDS more uneeded parking that has nothing to with the Landing.  The deal that fell through didnt add parking, but once and for all solved the landing's parking problem and settled a decades long obligation by the city.

[finehoe]

Or perhaps you are just putting words into people's mouths and making unfounded assumptions as before?

I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth:

Most local shops can't afford to pay the long term leasing rates required for a riverfront center like the Landing.  However, "national" does not have to mean "suburban".  Places like Walgreens and Office Depot are examples of national chains that would do quite well in downtown.  However, unless you offer an environment that can convince them to overlook their typical location selection criteria, you're going to have to meet some of their most important needs.   One of the major ones is minimum guaranteed parking.

So you're the one who needs to get his facts straight.

[finehoe]

Here's a true story: for the past 4 years... I have spent New Years Eve at Koja Sushi.  For $60 you get a riverview table on the patio to watch the fireworks and all you can eat/drink(beer/wine).  You don't have to be down in the 'crowd' and get to enjoy a FANTASTIC deal for what you get.  Try going to Savannah and get a riverfront table to watch NYE fireworks.

How many dedicated parking spaces does the City of Savannah provide for its riverfront venues?

[fieldafm]

Or perhaps you are just putting words into people's mouths and making unfounded assumptions as before?

I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth:

Most local shops can't afford to pay the long term leasing rates required for a riverfront center like the Landing.  However, "national" does not have to mean "suburban".  Places like Walgreens and Office Depot are examples of national chains that would do quite well in downtown.  However, unless you offer an environment that can convince them to overlook their typical location selection criteria, you're going to have to meet some of their most important needs.   One of the major ones is minimum guaranteed parking.

So you're the one who needs to get his facts straight.

Lol, my facts are quite straight thank you.

You're simply not understanding what has been said.  If you have any constructive comments or questions that I can answer for you.. I'm all ears.