Ben Carter Properties and Area Development

[Metro Jacksonville]

Ben Carter Properties and Area Development



The Atlanta-based company's development plans for two major shopping plazas have yet to be seen. The Markets at Town Center as an entertainment center? Ponte Vedra's Sawgrass Village to be torn down? We know they can talk, but when will they walk? Metro Jacksonville finds out.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-aug-ben-carter-properties-and-area-development

[peestandingup]

Note to self: Stay away from SJTC. To become even more of a clusterf*ck.

BTW, I kinda like Sawgrass Village the way it is. It blends in nicely with the surroundings & doesn't look "old" in the bad way. Even the upscale Marriott beside it has this same sort of look, as do most of those structures. Reminds me a lot of Hilton Head & the way they theme a lot of their businesses, condos, etc.

Anyways, this all seems like development just for the sake of development (notice their argument was just about "staying modern"), but oh well.

[simms3]

I'm pretty sure Ben Carter is in a venture with Mass Mutual on Sawgrass, but I could be mistaken.  I think BCP is the operator and Mass Mutual is the equity partner, but either way BCP is in charge of site development and leasing with approval from Mass Mutual.

We are working on pitching a deal to find a similar private company in another state an equity partner for 6 of their centers that they would still operate.  Their split (very simplified) would be 20% ownership stake with various fees for management.  Ben Carter is set up differently where I'm not so sure they have any equity stake in Sawgrass Village, but I'm sure they are charging Mass Mutual some huge fees on everything from improvements for tenants (maybe not, could be unique to our deal), to of course taking back 100-115% of the management fee recoverable (paid by tenants).

The CEO of the company grew up in Ortega and the Carters have long been vacationing in PVB, hence the connection.  My team works with Steve Cadranel quite a bit and I got to meet him recently.  It's a great company.  They (or should I say Mr. Ben Carter himself) lost control of his baby ultimatum development, Streets of Buckhead.  He had put in millions, maybe tens of millions, into it himself, and his company put in a total close to $200 million I think.  Of course my company was a major investor in it along with Wells Fargo.

[KenFSU]

In addition, if you've been to the area, you've come down with the massive headache of circling parking lots for spots and moving one inch at a time.

You're going to face this same problem anywhere though that people want to be. Jacksonville Beach on a sunny weekend morning. UNF during peak hours. The movie theater or Avenues Mall on a busy day.

There's definitely congestion at the Town Center, but I would hardly call it crippling or a true clusterf*ck. You may have to sit in some bumper to bumper traffic, but that's life. This traffic certainly doesn't seem to be keeping people away either. The "problem" can be partially attritubed to the layout, sure, but it's got far more to do with the general laziness of our citizens. There is never a shortage of parking if you are willing to park on the perimeter and walk. The interior congestion comes from these goofballs who expect to park five feet from their favorite storefront on a Saturday afternoon. They circle, and stop, and vulture pedestrians, and circle more, desperately trying to avoid doing any actual physical exercise.

Just once I'd love to see an article about the incredible economic impact this shopping center has had on the city of Jacksonville. The place is booming and has brought high end retail to Jacksonville in a way few could have imagined even ten years ago. Ask the average citizen in Jacksonville what their favorite places in the city are, and the Town Center would probably be right up there for the majority, yet it's constantly villified in these forums.

[thelakelander]

I'll have to go back and read the article but I don't see where the shopping center is being villified in this story.  If anything, I see that Sarah has done a great job of contacting their representatives and getting an update on what has been announced and proposed at two local BCP shopping centers.

The "problem" can be partially attritubed to the layout, sure, but it's got far more to do with the general laziness of our citizens. There is never a shortage of parking if you are willing to park on the perimeter and walk.

From my travels, I've come to the conclusion that the average person in Jacksonville is no different from the average person in any other city.  What is a major factor is "layout" and "context" of the environment at the pedestrian scale level.  Provide an interesting, comfortable atmosphere and people will subliminally walk longer distances.  Stick a sidewalk in the middle of a massive parking lot, while providing limited to no street trees for the pedestrian and you'll find it empty.  It works this way from cities as urban as NYC and Chicago to suburban communities like Jacksonville's Southside.

[KenFSU]

I'll have to go back and read the article but I don't see where the shopping center is being villified in this story.

No, I actually thought the story itself was quite fair. Overall, the editorials on the site are quite fair as well when it comes to the Town Center. I was speaking more toward the general attitude in the forums about the Town Center, or more specifically the bitterly negative Pavlovian response it tends to illicit at any mere mention, despite the incredible affect, both financially and psychologically, it has had on this city.

[Garden guy]

this article could be tied to america loosing it's citites..developers run amuck and all allowed by the city...building permits galore...who needs one...easy to get....i'm suprised they are'nt given out in a  cereal box.

[cline]

Just once I'd love to see an article about the incredible economic impact this shopping center has had on the city of Jacksonville. The place is booming and has brought high end retail to Jacksonville in a way few could have imagined even ten years ago. Ask the average citizen in Jacksonville what their favorite places in the city are, and the Town Center would probably be right up there for the majority, yet it's constantly villified in these forums.

Regency Square mall also had an incredible economic impact in its day.  It was one of the best and largest malls in the southeast.  Now it's effectively dead.

[hightowerlover]

I'll admit that intersection is a little dysfunctional but I wouldn't really call it a headache.  Jacksonville needs to put on their big girl panties sometimes.

[Dapperdan]

    Would it help to build parking garages to get rid rid of some of the massive parcels of parking? To me, garages should have been part of the plan to begin with. And yes, the garages should charge to park. People would still pay to have a convenient parking spot. I recently went to LA and  Hollywood Blvd recently completed a massive parking structure near the Chinese theatre that is mostly underground, but all the visitors park there, and pay to park, so they can walk around Hollywood Blvd. It works great. I know we probably cannot bury ours, but we could build some Universal Studios style.
    I would also love to see a trolley that links to maybe one of the ginormous parking lots off Beach,Atlantic, or even Southside somewhere. You could park there and ride the trolley in to SJTC. I know it is not eliminating parking, just moving it out further and spreading it out a bit, but anything would help. Garage's and Trolley's. That is my idea

[thelakelander]

Putting it within it's context, the SJTC is a private development constructed to turn a profit.  Structured garages have a huge cost that most likely would have made the entire SJTC project unfeasible if the developer were forced to immediately build them.

Btw, I was in Hollywood two weeks ago and stayed in a hotel at that Chinese theatre complex.  However, my daily parking fee came in the form of a $1.50 ticket on the red line subway under it.  Here are a couple of views from my room.

[peestandingup]

I've posted before my beefs with the SJTC, as well as examples of other outdoor walking malls that "get it right", so I'll save you guys those long-winded rants & links again. But I think Lake & some others hit it on the head when they say its about layout/context.

It boils down to this: SJTC's developers tried to make it both a walkable mall & a drivable/park-at-the-door mall. It fails at both. Why they didn't make it to where you could just park your car in a designated structure of some sort & then navigate the entire town center on foot like many other open-air shopping/dining centers is anyone's guess. It kinda started out that way & was somewhat manageable, but not anymore. And as these little segregated islands within the property keep popping up, it gets worse. Its almost like its own little sprawling city, where the main drag is "downtown" & the all the other detached stuff is the "suburbs".

I don't think anyone wants the SJTC to not be there. And we're all aware of what it brings to Jacksonville. Thank God it is there (shopping in Jax before it was pretty bad for a city this size). Just saying its a faulty setup IMO & lacks focus.

[cline]

It seems like on of the major traffic issues is entering off of JTB.  If you're heading east on JTB you have to do some serious weaving to get over in order to turn right into the SJTC.  Not to mention traffic routinely backs up under the JTB overpass.  I think it would be well served if they closed the entrace to Costco and removed the light at Skinner Lake Drive.  That might help a little.  Costco would probably never let it fly though since you would then have to enter and exit Costco over where the Best Buy is.

[copperfiend]

They added a second right turn lane a few weeks ago and it seems to help traffic flow better.

[cline]

They added a second right turn lane a few weeks ago and it seems to help traffic flow better.

I saw that they actually went ahead and striped it now since everyone was pretty much using it as a de facto right turn lane already.