Current Courthouse

[thelakelander]

Here if nobody believes me;

http://www.jaxevents.com/calendar.php

If you only check the C.C. box and weed out the luncheons and PTA meetings with 20 people, the actual events are;

1: Jacksonville Boat Show
2: Jacksonville Car & Truck Show
3: Home & Patio Show
4: Jacksonville Women's Show
5: Quilt-Fest 2011

With the exception of the Quilting-Fest and its 50 visitors, every single one of these things is just drawing residents from the surrounding areas to try and sell them something, it's not an actual convention that does anything for the local economy. And if you add all the events together, wow, holy jesus, that's like a whole 3,000 people I can totally see how that justifies spending $400mm on a new convention center. I mean, business is really booming, clearly we need to spend more money to expand.

I haven't had the opportunity to read the last page and a half of this thread in detail but what happened to the Florida Black Expo?  Also, events such as these can be a boost to businesses.  For example, some events pull in people who otherwise would never come downtown.  In a place with connectivity, people may actually grab a bit to eat or stop in an adjacent restaurant or shop.  Btw, I don't endorse spending $400 million for a new convention center.  Why would one cost that much?

[cline]

um....the Omni here employs lots of people...the salaries they get are primarily spent locally.

The Omni, and every other downtown hotel, employ a lot of people who are paid under a living wage. Minimum wage type jobs are actually a net negative for a local economy, because the taxpayers wind up subsidizing healthcare, transportation, and essential services for people who are paid that little. A handful of people probably make decent money at a hotel, but most of them are minimum wage restaurant servers, dishwashers, maids for the rooms, etc. That's most of their workforce.

So are you arguing that we would be better off without hotels due to the fact that they don't pay a living wage?  There are many, many citizens of Jacksonville that rely on this industry for their salaries.  Without these industries providing jobs, we would be greater "net negative".

[Ralph W]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

City of Jacksonville tourist development tax (bed tax) of 6%. 2% goes to Sports Complex maintenance, 2% goes to paying back bonds for Alltel Stadium construction, and 2% goes towards promotion of First Coast (70% of that for Visit Jacksonville, and the other 30% for regional visits).

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/jacksonville/1124067-poll-do-you-support-regional-sales-2.html#ixzz1AqiL96tU

Above from a post by JSIMMS3 on 11-13-2010.

Seems that the bed tax money is already spoken for.

[ChriswUfGator]

Now let's do the sales tax math...

So Duval County exercised its "Local Option Sales Tax" and assessed 1% on top of the state's 6% sales tax that gets paid to the Dept. of Revenue in Tallahassee. 1% is what we see locally. So just to break even on a $400mm convention center, the convention center would have to bring in FORTY BILLION DOLLARS in additional taxable sales tax revenue.

I guess with Tufsu's "special" math here that would be a boon for the 8 restaurants actually open downtown, since that would mean each restaurant would need to do FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in sales for these numbers to work, LOL. So I guess each and every individual downtown restaurant would become a Fortune 500 company overnight. Sweet!

Man this convention center is just looking better and better, isn't it? Not only will flying Assmonkeys drop gold bars down the chimney of every citizen of Jacksonville on Christmas eve, but we'll have 8 new Fortune 500 companies located downtown. Freaking awesome, man!

I still think if this kind of thinking is what people are going for, we should just cut to the chase and start building that new launch pad downtown so we can put NASA out of business at the same time we're cornering the convention market. That would be super-brilliant...

[cline]

I still think if this kind of thinking is what people are going for, we should just cut to the chase and start building that new launch pad downtown so we can put NASA out of business at the same time we're cornering the convention market. That would be super-brilliant...

Well, Cecil Field does have its Spaceport license, so you never know 

[ChriswUfGator]

Here if nobody believes me;

http://www.jaxevents.com/calendar.php

If you only check the C.C. box and weed out the luncheons and PTA meetings with 20 people, the actual events are;

1: Jacksonville Boat Show
2: Jacksonville Car & Truck Show
3: Home & Patio Show
4: Jacksonville Women's Show
5: Quilt-Fest 2011

With the exception of the Quilting-Fest and its 50 visitors, every single one of these things is just drawing residents from the surrounding areas to try and sell them something, it's not an actual convention that does anything for the local economy. And if you add all the events together, wow, holy jesus, that's like a whole 3,000 people I can totally see how that justifies spending $400mm on a new convention center. I mean, business is really booming, clearly we need to spend more money to expand.

I haven't had the opportunity to read the last page and a half of this thread in detail but what happened to the Florida Black Expo?  Also, events such as these can be a boost to businesses.  For example, some events pull in people who otherwise would never come downtown.  In a place with connectivity, people may actually grab a bit to eat or stop in an adjacent restaurant or shop.  Btw, I don't endorse spending $400 million for a new convention center.  Why would one cost that much?

It'll cost that much because this is Jacksonville. We can't build anything unless it's 5 years late and at least double the projected budget. Hey, look at the bright side, at least you'll have the benefit of it not working right once it's finished!

The Black Expo is still there, I took a second look at the list. So even counting that, we have like 5 or 6 events now (I say 5 or 6 since Tufsu still wants to count the boat show, even though they moved most of the boats over to the park/marina area the last couple years). Point is, that's hardly enough volume to justify additional investment in this money-losing business that does little to nothing to stimulate the local economy. Mark my words, this will wind up being another giant boondoggle.

[Ralph W]

Can't use that 1% local option in any calculations. It too, is already spoken for. .05% is for the BJP and the first .05% was to cover the revenue lost when the toll were removed.

Got to go back to the public trough for another handout.

[thelakelander]

Mass transit and the convention business are completely incomparable, the former directly benefits the community and the latter is nothing more than a taxpayer handout with no tangible local benefit.

They are comparable in that economic stimulation can be generated when placing these entities within walking distance of complementing uses.  Anything that helps to create a 24/7 downtown street atmosphere can be considered a tangible local benefit, assuming a vibrant core is a goal.

What events are already here? The Prime-Osborne schedule shows a whopping 4 events, none of which are large enough to draw more than a handful of people. And I think one them is our city-sponsored job fair, so I wouldn't even count that one. The Prime-Osborne's rate structure this year is...get this...FREE. If you bring in an event that will fill a paltry minimum of 200 hotel rooms, they will actually give you the space FOR FREE. Sounds great, right? That will surely make us competitive! So how did this work? Well, we actually lost an event we had competed to get. So what was this prime-time event that snubbed our fantastic convention destination, despite our literally giving the space away for free? The National Association of Beetle Collectors. LMAO!

I mean, if you really want to argue this one then I'll play, but it only gets more embarrassing from here.

The Prime Osborn is a pretty pathetic facility.  There are no complementing uses within a mile of its doors, its not mixed-use and its extremely outdated.  No argument here.

The truth is that we cannot compete in the marketplace as it sits, and the building has got nothing to do with it. It's not that people aren't coming because we don't have the space, if you look at the truly successful convention cities like Vegas, San Diego, Orlando, etc., they have huge spaces to accommodate certain large events but the vast majority of the convention business is still comprised of smaller events that are well under the 2,000 person size that our own facilities can handle as it sits, usually under 1,000. Muncie Indiana has a convention center half our size and does 7 times our volume.

The building has a lot to do with it.  We've lost several home grown events in the last couple of years because of its constraints and that has nothing to do with places like Vegas, Orlando and San Diego.  I'll also ask again.  Is there an example of a successful business city in America without viable exhibition space in its metropolitan area?  If so, I'd be interested to find out more about it.

All that building a larger building is going to accomplish is to increase the operating losses.

Go mixed-use and you'll cut down on operating losses.  Continue to do things the same way and I agree.

You're confusing cause and effect. What seems to work in cities that have industrial hubs and a functioning economy doesn't work here, exactly because we have destroyed both and there is no organic need for convention space here.

So you're basically saying abandon and run off what's left and accept that we'll never be an industrial hub or have a functioning economy?

Well, if we aren't looking at it as a money-making business, or as something that will provide a greater benefit than its cost to the local economy, then what the hell's the point then?

I've already stated one major benefit, imo.

They are comparable in that economic stimulation can be generated when placing these entities within walking distance of complementing uses.  Anything that helps to create a 24/7 downtown street atmosphere can be considered a tangible local benefit, assuming a vibrant core is a goal.

Where that falls in the list of our priorities and the ROI compared to other needs, who knows?

[thelakelander]

Can't use that 1% local option in any calculations. It too, is already spoken for. .05% is for the BJP and the first .05% was to cover the revenue lost when the toll were removed.

Got to go back to the public trough for another handout.

Why not go public/private?  For example, how bad does Hyatt really want a center next to their struggling hotel?  Would a retail developer, such as Regency, Sleiman or Sembler be willing to add some retail/entertainment space near a main entrance that forces all visitors to walk past their investment to enter?  Assuming its the current courthouse site is to become a convention center, why not build a cheap box in the center of the site and RFP edges, street fronts and air rights for mixed use development.  Is there any room for creative solutions with this issue?

[Bativac]

Can't use that 1% local option in any calculations. It too, is already spoken for. .05% is for the BJP and the first .05% was to cover the revenue lost when the toll were removed.

Got to go back to the public trough for another handout.

Why not go public/private?  For example, how bad does Hyatt really want a center next to their struggling hotel?  Would a retail developer, such as Regency, Sleiman or Sembler be willing to add some retail/entertainment space near a main entrance that forces all visitors to walk past their investment to enter?  Assuming its the current courthouse site is to become a convention center, why not build a cheap box in the center of the site and RFP edges, street fronts and air rights for mixed use development.  Is there any room for creative solutions with this issue?

That would be great -- build a simple no-frills convention building in the center and surround it with retail or restaurants or other mixed uses. Get rid of the giant riverfront parking lot.

Anything would be preferable to leaving an empty courthouse building on the site for years. (Except a vacant lot. That would not be preferable.) I hope they don't turn it into a park or something. The last thing downtown Jax needs right there is a park.

[vicupstate]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

WHAT? Ok, Tufsu, so let's do the math on this one...

Of Duval County's 6% hotel tax, 2% is taken off the top by law (2009-817-E) to support the Sports Complex Maintenance Fund. Another 2% of it is then taken off the top to pay debt service on the bonds issued to construct Alltel/EverBank Stadium. This leaves a whopping 2% left over, and out of that amount COJ has to fund the Visit Jacksonville program and cover its entire marketing budget.

But for the sake of argument, let's do the math. At a 2% net, the convention center would have to generate literally TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS worth of taxable room revenue just to BREAK EVEN, and that's not even including interest. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is exactly what I've been saying all along, which is that the other 98% of that money goes straight into the pockets of out of state corporations not into our local economy.

So seriously, give me a friggin break...

If 2% of the Bed taxes paid for the stadium, which if memory serves, was about $167mm to build, obviously an identical 2% could fund a similiar amount of debt.  That is probably 80-100% of the cost of a convention center.  The land is already in the city's hands, so there is no expense on that end.  The boost in sales taxes from the added visitors would add still more revenue.  You could also TIF the surrounding property such that the increase in property values would support the center.

BTW, Silicon Valley is like 500 miles from San Diego.  20 years ago, SD was just another overgrown Navy town like Jax is today.       

[ChriswUfGator]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

WHAT? Ok, Tufsu, so let's do the math on this one...

Of Duval County's 6% hotel tax, 2% is taken off the top by law (2009-817-E) to support the Sports Complex Maintenance Fund. Another 2% of it is then taken off the top to pay debt service on the bonds issued to construct Alltel/EverBank Stadium. This leaves a whopping 2% left over, and out of that amount COJ has to fund the Visit Jacksonville program and cover its entire marketing budget.

But for the sake of argument, let's do the math. At a 2% net, the convention center would have to generate literally TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS worth of taxable room revenue just to BREAK EVEN, and that's not even including interest. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is exactly what I've been saying all along, which is that the other 98% of that money goes straight into the pockets of out of state corporations not into our local economy.

So seriously, give me a friggin break...

If 2% of the Bed taxes paid for the stadium, which if memory serves, was about $167mm to build, obviously an identical 2% could fund a similiar amount of debt.  That is probably 80-100% of the cost of a convention center.  The land is already in the city's hands, so there is no expense on that end.  The boost in sales taxes from the added visitors would add still more revenue.  You could also TIF the surrounding property such that the increase in property values would support the center.

BTW, Silicon Valley is like 500 miles from San Diego.  20 years ago, SD was just another overgrown Navy town like Jax is today.      

2% of the bed taxes didn't come close to paying for the stadium, that just pays for some of the interest payments on the public bonds that we're obligated to repay, and THAT's what paid for the stadium. And San Diego has a lot going for it that we don't, namely proximity to other locations that generate convention business. They have a couple of the largest cities (I mean actual largest, not gimmicky "land area" stats when most of it's woods, like us) within driving distance. Jacksonville isn't going to have that luxury, and won't be able to compete.

[tufsu1]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

WHAT? Ok, Tufsu, so let's do the math on this one...

Of Duval County's 6% hotel tax, 2% is taken off the top by law (2009-817-E) to support the Sports Complex Maintenance Fund. Another 2% of it is then taken off the top to pay debt service on the bonds issued to construct Alltel/EverBank Stadium. This leaves a whopping 2% left over, and out of that amount COJ has to fund the Visit Jacksonville program and cover its entire marketing budget.

But for the sake of argument, let's do the math. At a 2% net, the convention center would have to generate literally TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS worth of taxable room revenue just to BREAK EVEN, and that's not even including interest. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is exactly what I've been saying all along, which is that the other 98% of that money goes straight into the pockets of out of state corporations not into our local economy.

So seriously, give me a friggin break...

dude...I'm talking about breaking even on the annual operations cost...not the upfront capital

It is the operating costs of a convention center which most cities run a deficit on....as examples, the Pittsburgh Convention Center runs about a $2 million deficit each year and the much larger one in Philly runs up to $5 million in deficit.

Don't you think we could easily cover that with additional bed and sales tax revenues generated by attendees?

[tufsu1]

btw Chris...aren't you from Daytona....they recently expanded their center and have taken business from Jax....what do they have as a draw that we can't compete with?

http://www.volusia.org/oceancenter/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Center

[fieldafm]

One quick point(Im in favor of a courthouse-site CC incidentally)... the Sports Maintenance Fund is getting the 2% of bed tax money b/c the bonds were retired from the construction of the Prime Osborne.

A riverfront-Hyatt connected Convention Center would absolutely be a big benefit for downtown(and encourage surrounding private infill) b/c of the foot traffic generated from the convention business and subsequent clustering effect.