Current Courthouse

[fieldafm]

My hope is that they level the building and turn the resulting broken foundation into a surface parking lot... maybe surrounded by a chain link fence with some weeds to give it a little character. And dare I suggest -- a guy with a hot dog cart could operate out on the sidewalk! (Wait, unless Mark's sells hot dogs.)

Funny you should mention this. I have it on good authority that such plans are already being drawn up.

The Civic Council is supposed to make a presentation on this very issue sometime this month.

[copperfiend]

I think the only piece left to tackle is which fence company owned by one of Peyton's buddies will get the no-bid contract.

[ChriswUfGator]

As far as the convention business in Jax goes, I look at it in the same manner as our Amtrak situation.  Its less about competing with Orlando, Chicago or whoever and more about clustering development in a walkable setting to stimulate additional vibrancy.  Both of these things are already here.  However, they are in locations where we don't get the best economic benefit and utilization out of them, thus coordinated relocation makes sense.

That's a false comparison. Public transit is a different animal entirely, because the people who directly benefit from public transit are actually the residents of the community whose tax dollars are being invested to build it. The convention business is the direct opposite, because it takes tax dollars from local residents to create a loss-making enterprise that creates indirect revenue streams that are funneled straight to corporations which aren't local and do not reinvest in this community. Our tax dollars are going to support SMG in Philadelphia, the Hyatt and Omni hotel corporations in Chicago and Dallas, and whatever corporate chain restaurants they sell concession space to. None of that stays here in the community, and in direct contraposition to mass transit, we as local residents, do not benefit from it at all.

Can I ride the convention center to work? Does the convention center decrease my commute times or save me time due to decreased highway congestion? Does it save me fuel? The people at the conventions are here from out of town, and they go home when it is over, leaving no permanent impact on the local economy. And even the temporary economic impact is largely gobbled up by the out-of-town corporations who run the convention center, hotels, restaurants, and parking. All we get for it is the bill.

Mass transit and the convention business are completely incomparable, the former directly benefits the community and the latter is nothing more than a taxpayer handout with no tangible local benefit. Unsurprisingly, the only local people who want to see this built are *shocker* SMG/The Munz Cartel and Preston Haskell, the former knows he'll get another opportunity to fleece the taxpayers by running the venue, the latter thinks he's going to get the construction contract to build it. The rest of us who actually live here see this for the asinine idea that it is.

What about the events that are already here?  What about having meeting space available for home grown events, trade shows, festivals and corportations?  These are things that take place at the Prime Osborn now that provides less economic impact than they should because of the Prime Osborn's isolated location.  I believe there is an argument to be made for relocating this activity to an area where existing downtown businesses and walkability can benefit.

What events are already here? The Prime-Osborne schedule shows a whopping 4 events, none of which are large enough to draw more than a handful of people. And I think one them is our city-sponsored job fair, so I wouldn't even count that one. The Prime-Osborne's rate structure this year is...get this...FREE. If you bring in an event that will fill a paltry minimum of 200 hotel rooms, they will actually give you the space FOR FREE. Sounds great, right? That will surely make us competitive! So how did this work? Well, we actually lost an event we had competed to get. So what was this prime-time event that snubbed our fantastic convention destination, despite our literally giving the space away for free? The National Association of Beetle Collectors. LMAO!

I mean, if you really want to argue this one then I'll play, but it only gets more embarrassing from here.

The truth is that we cannot compete in the marketplace as it sits, and the building has got nothing to do with it. It's not that people aren't coming because we don't have the space, if you look at the truly successful convention cities like Vegas, San Diego, Orlando, etc., they have huge spaces to accommodate certain large events but the vast majority of the convention business is still comprised of smaller events that are well under the 2,000 person size that our own facilities can handle as it sits, usually under 1,000. Muncie Indiana has a convention center half our size and does 7 times our volume.

The reason nobody chooses Jacksonville isn't because of the facility, it's because this city cannot (and will never) compete with a Las Vegas or a San Diego or an Orlando, or even other small cities, because the problem isn't the building! It's that there is nothing for people to do when they get here. It's funny to us that Tufsu can try with a straight face to argue that Winn-Dixie is a "dining out" option downtown, but convention managers don't find it funny they just go somewhere else. We already cannot compete against other cities for the smaller events that presently fit our facilities, those events just choose the popular convention destinations the same as the large events do, because of all the same reasons that I've listed. All that building a larger building is going to accomplish is to increase the operating losses.

No, we can't compete against Vegas, but that's only one use of an exhibition hall space.  You need exhibition space for the industry, business and cultural event already here.  Why not make sure that space is in a place that triggers walkable urban synergy? Can you really be a business and industrial hub without a convention facility or adaquate exhibition space?  Is there a major American metro out there today that successfully attracts well paying jobs and quality businesses without an exhibition hall to support them?

You're confusing cause and effect. What seems to work in cities that have industrial hubs and a functioning economy doesn't work here, exactly because we have destroyed both and there is no organic need for convention space here. Additionally, you'll note the successful convention cities are largely tourist-based economies, which provides natural synergies with the convention business. That model does not work in Jacksonville, because we lack a tourist economy, not to mention the draws (amenities and attractions) that create it.

I don't think we should be looking at the convention market as a money making business.  The same goes for mass transit.  Instead, more focus should be given to better utilizing our existing assets to grow our economy.  We already have a stake in exhibition space.  However, downtown would be much better off if that space were located adjacent to complementing uses.

Well, if we aren't looking at it as a money-making business, or as something that will provide a greater benefit than its cost to the local economy, then what the hell's the point then? If this is just some grand experiment in wasting money on building infrastructure for a business in which we can never compete, then why stop there? Why don't we build a giant $400mm rocket launch pad instead? So what if there are no rockets! I'm sure if we just build it, we'll put NASA right out of business.

[ChriswUfGator]

Here if nobody believes me;

http://www.jaxevents.com/calendar.php

If you only check the C.C. box and weed out the luncheons and PTA meetings with 20 people, the actual events are;

1: Jacksonville Boat Show
2: Jacksonville Car & Truck Show
3: Home & Patio Show
4: Jacksonville Women's Show
5: Quilt-Fest 2011

With the exception of the Quilting-Fest and its 50 visitors, every single one of these things is just drawing residents from the surrounding areas to try and sell them something, it's not an actual convention that does anything for the local economy. And if you add all the events together, wow, holy jesus, that's like a whole 3,000 people I can totally see how that justifies spending $400mm on a new convention center. I mean, business is really booming, clearly we need to spend more money to expand.

[ChriswUfGator]

And if anyone wants to discuss economic impact outside of one-trick-ponies, then consider that $400mm would be enough to provide government incentives to get JU, FCSL, the Art Institute, and probably some portion of UNF, to locate downtown. Think of the *actual* organic and sustainable economic impact something like that would have. A convention center will be a giant waste of money, and will benefit (by my count) exactly 3 local residents (Haskell, Munz, and Rimmer). The rest of us will have nothing to show for it.

[stjr]

Chris, you make some good points on this issue.  I look forward to responses to your comments by others.  I think the discussion about the convention center may ultimately mimic ones about the Jags.  Do we want these things for civic pride and/or quality of life more than for economic development?  (Now that I think about it, I would lump the Skyway's original promises of it being a major economic development tool/savior for downtown in the same boat.)

Advocates need to come clean.  If the community wants it for civic pride or other intangibles, fine, but let's make the decision on the up and up, not with smoke and mirrors and impossible-to-deliver promises that undermine the community's confidence in it's less than candid leadership.  These cycles just breed contempt, cynicism, disdain, suspicion, and resentment by taxpayers and make advocacy for the truly beneficial projects that much harder to gain acceptance.  

The public is tired of false and grandiose arguments made just to offer political cover for expensive toys of special interests.  I am the first to support creative and visionary projects for our city and am not adverse at supporting and subsidizing some of them for their intangible and/or immeasurable contributions to our psyche and/or quality of life.  But, I don't want my intelligence insulted by someone telling me it's an economic panacea for our community when we all know it isn't.  Once that happens, the message bearer has lost my attention as I move my focus to  what their ulterior motives really are and who they are trying to truly benefit.

[Captain Zissou]

Chris, the boat show is usually at MetPark these days.  Scratch that off your list.  It was getting too big for the convention center.

Edit: It says it's there, so now I'm confused.  MetPark has had big boat shows there for the past 2 years at least.  it was my understanding that this replaced the Convention Center show.  The Donna Deegan thing is actually a really big event.

[Captain Zissou]

My hope is that they level the building and turn the resulting broken foundation into a surface parking lot... maybe surrounded by a chain link fence with some weeds to give it a little character. And dare I suggest -- a guy with a hot dog cart could operate out on the sidewalk! (Wait, unless Mark's sells hot dogs.)

Funny you should mention this. I have it on good authority that such plans are already being drawn up.

The Civic Council is supposed to make a presentation on this very issue sometime this month.

Where have you heard this??  I'm very interested in learning more about the civic council, but unable to find any info on what they're discussing and doing these days.

[vicupstate]

San Diego and Baltimore are two similiar-sized cities that each used Conventions and convention facilities to generate a significant engine for DT revitilization.  Conventions represent residents from OTHER areas dumping money into YOUR city.  How is that a loss?

Yes, conventions centers lose money, that is because they don't collect the money brought in. The hotels, restaurants, bars, shops (and the resulting taxes they pay) receive the 'pay back' NOT the center itself.

The community, through it's taxes pays for the center, but the community through
it's private business and the taxes they pay returns that investment.  Also, ROOM taxes have been, and would be, a source to PAY for the center or it's expansion.  That is NOT a tax that locals would normally pay.  

Orlando and Vegas are on a totally different level and is largely irrelevant.  Does Jax compete with LA or NYC for movie production or the fashion industry?  

Believe it or not, some corporations and organizations actually want conventioneers to ATTEND the convention and not just go to an amusement park or casino.  

Would a convention attendee not buy meals and drinks in the LOCAL establishments in the Bay Street district?  Would filling the Hyatt not bring new customers to not only Bay Street but the Landing and Laura Street as well?

How much money spent at SJTC  stays in Jacksonville?  Nearly every business there is a national chain.  How many minimum wage jobs does it produce?  

Significant conventions that had previously used Prime Osborn left because they outgrew the facility.  Right now Jax is somewhere between Fargo ND and Wichita KS in terms of facilities.  

Your posts greatly exgratrate the negative and totally ignore the positive.  Just like you through out that $400mm figure which is 2-4 times the actual cost.

[ChriswUfGator]

San Diego and Baltimore are two similiar-sized cities that each used Conventions and convention facilities to generate a significant engine for DT revitilization.  Conventions represent residents from OTHER areas dumping money into YOUR city.  How is that a loss?

Yes, conventions centers lose money, that is because they don't collect the money brought in. The hotels, restaurants, bars, shops (and the resulting taxes they pay) receive the 'pay back' NOT the center itself.

The community, through it's taxes pays for the center, but the community through
it's private business and the taxes they pay returns that investment.  Also, ROOM taxes have been, and would be, a source to PAY for the center or it's expansion.  That is NOT a tax that locals would normally pay.  

Orlando and Vegas are on a totally different level and is largely irrelevant.  Does Jax compete with LA or NYC for movie production or the fashion industry?  

Believe it or not, some corporations and organizations actually want conventioneers to ATTEND the convention and not just go to an amusement park or casino.  

Would a convention attendee not buy meals and drinks in the LOCAL establishments in the Bay Street district?  Would filling the Hyatt not bring new customers to not only Bay Street but the Landing and Laura Street as well?

How much money spent at SJTC  stays in Jacksonville?  Nearly every business there is a national chain.  How many minimum wage jobs does it produce?  

Significant conventions that had previously used Prime Osborn left because they outgrew the facility.  Right now Jax is somewhere between Fargo ND and Wichita KS in terms of facilities.  

Your posts greatly exgratrate the negative and totally ignore the positive.  Just like you through out that $400mm figure which is 2-4 times the actual cost.

OK well since Jacksonville isn't located in California, and since we don't have silicon valley and several of the largest cities in the country nearby, I don't think San Diego is really comparable, do you?

And the courthouse was supposed to be $180mm, no? What project is ever built here without being over its projected cost? Your approach to how these things works belies your favorable bias.

[tufsu1]

Right, but that's a flawed analysis Tufsu. What really matters is how much money makes it back into the local economy. The reality is very little. All we're really doing is subsidizing a money-losing business so that SMG in Chicago, Omni Hotels in Dallas, and whatever corporate chain restaurants they all operate, can make money. It's us as a local community handing over money to giant corporations thousands of miles away.

um....the Omni here employs lots of people...the salaries they get are primarily spent locally.

As for small shows not having an impact....also BS....ask the restaurants at the Landing if they can tell when a 1000 person conference is going on at the Hyatt...or for that matter, check the Skyway ridership when there's a home or auto show at the Prime Osborn!

[ChriswUfGator]

um....the Omni here employs lots of people...the salaries they get are primarily spent locally.

The Omni, and every other downtown hotel, employ a lot of people who are paid under a living wage. Minimum wage type jobs are actually a net negative for a local economy, because the taxpayers wind up subsidizing healthcare, transportation, and essential services for people who are paid that little. A handful of people probably make decent money at a hotel, but most of them are minimum wage restaurant servers, dishwashers, maids for the rooms, etc. That's most of their workforce.

[tufsu1]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

[tufsu1]

Chris, the boat show is usually at MetPark these days.  Scratch that off your list.  It was getting too big for the convention center.

Edit: It says it's there, so now I'm confused.  MetPark has had big boat shows there for the past 2 years at least.  it was my understanding that this replaced the Convention Center show.  The Donna Deegan thing is actually a really big event.

there are several boatshows each year...and one is held indoors at the prime

[ChriswUfGator]

fine Chris...how about the bed taxes....I'm willing to bet those fees and the sales tax revenues generated at dining/retail establishments more than make up the deficit of the convention facility.

WHAT? Ok, Tufsu, so let's do the math on this one...

Of Duval County's 6% hotel tax, 2% is taken off the top by law (2009-817-E) to support the Sports Complex Maintenance Fund. Another 2% of it is then taken off the top to pay debt service on the bonds issued to construct Alltel/EverBank Stadium. This leaves a whopping 2% left over, and out of that amount COJ has to fund the Visit Jacksonville program and cover its entire marketing budget.

But for the sake of argument, let's do the math. At a 2% net, the convention center would have to generate literally TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS worth of taxable room revenue just to BREAK EVEN, and that's not even including interest. And of course the 800lb gorilla in the room is exactly what I've been saying all along, which is that the other 98% of that money goes straight into the pockets of out of state corporations not into our local economy.

So seriously, give me a friggin break...