First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?

[Mattius92]

Jacksonville is HUGE area wise, and so large that millions of more poeple could fit in the area of Jacksonville just fine. There is no need to keep up the growing outward and start to grow inward and upward.

However must people are for smart development, but I think for that smart more dense development to work we need better infrastructure like mass transit to and from these areas. Then we will start to see stuff pop up around these areas.

BRING ON THE METRORAIL!!!

[CS Foltz]

Commuter rail, rather than concrete, should be the answer. Scheduled correctly, even freight could use some of the tracks so Jaxport should be thinking rail rather than more concrete since that is more efficient cost wise permile than trucking everything in four directions.............but thats just me!!

[jandar]

If you add commuter rail across the St Johns near or south of the Buckman Bridge, then you can eliminate the outer beltway.

You cannot expect people to drive 5-15 minutes to a rail station, then 20-30 minutes downtown, and then another 20+ minutes back to the southside. Why spend 1+ hour to take rail, when a 45 minute car commute gives them the freedom of not being stuck adhering to a train schedule.

[JC]

Commuter rail, rather than concrete, should be the answer. Scheduled correctly, even freight could use some of the tracks so Jaxport should be thinking rail rather than more concrete since that is more efficient cost wise permile than trucking everything in four directions.............but thats just me!!

Sharing tracks with freight would be a huge mistake.  I took Amtrak from Myrtle Beach to Manhattan and south of DC I was stuck behind a broken down CSX train for 7 hours.  Along the Hudson and the Harlem Lines in NY, there is no freight allowed, they are too slow and long, sharing would only complicate the logistics and the first time a commuter heading to work gets stuck on the train for an hour it will be their last.

[CS Foltz]

JC .....you do have a point, but I would have to ask which is worst, stuck for an hour plus because of a fender bender or a dead vehicle or stuck on a train for the same amount of time? Seperate trackage just for a masstransit system is one thing, but using existing tracks would require sharing.............not sure but I know I am for the path of least financial resistance!

[thelakelander]

Sharing the rails is all about who has the priority.  If a company like CSX owns the tracks, their trains will most likely have the priority.  If its a local or regional line owned by a transportation authority like Austin's Capital Metro (Metrorail), their commuter rail trains will have the priority.  

[Ocklawaha]

Commuter rail, rather than concrete, should be the answer. Scheduled correctly, even freight could use some of the tracks so Jaxport should be thinking rail rather than more concrete since that is more efficient cost wise permile than trucking everything in four directions.............but thats just me!!

Sharing tracks with freight would be a huge mistake.  I took Amtrak from Myrtle Beach to Manhattan and south of DC I was stuck behind a broken down CSX train for 7 hours.  Along the Hudson and the Harlem Lines in NY, there is no freight allowed, they are too slow and long, sharing would only complicate the logistics and the first time a commuter heading to work gets stuck on the train for an hour it will be their last.

JC this is a non-problem. Amtrak out in the boonies on a freight railroad is WAY different then a dense urban layout of tracks such as Jacksonville's.  In the countryside a railroad like CSX might, read that MIGHT, have a passing siding every 5-10 miles, ditto for cross-overs allowing the train to pass from one to another track in double track territory.  So just for examples sake, let's say there are 6 passing sidings and 2 cross-overs in a one hundred mile line. In Jacksonville, within the bounds of 50 miles in any direction from Jacksonville Terminal, we probably have 15-20 per route.

Chicago, New york, Los Angeles, and virtually every other major city use freight railroad tracks with various ownerships for commuter rail. Not to do so would put the economics of commuter rail on par with Light Rail or Bus Rapid Transit, where an exclusive right of way is created for a single travel mode. These economics probably exist between downtown and the beaches, as well as the near-north/south/westside, but not to St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, Baldwin, Yulee or Callahan.

So do I see Light Rail tossed into our mix? Watch the beach routes...  Otherwise we'll be a duplicate of Trinity Rail Express in Dallas, or a mini-Metro-Link as in Los Angeles.

http://www.youtube.com/v/yiEcKIpYqYM&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca


Note the difference in the urban trackage and rural Virginia/Carolina, keeping in mind that rebuilt with just a fraction of the tracks we once had - our station is LARGER then LOS ANGLES!.


OCKLAWAHA

[Mattius92]

Like Ock said, the rail lines within Jacksonville are very well built, and have capabilities for large capacity. Like the FEC, used to be an Class I railway(its currently a class II), so we know that it can handle much more rail traffic. Also the S-line is all owned by JTA, so that's another section that would be just commuter. And the line down US-17 has plenty of capacity. On top of that we have rail going into about every major part of town except the Regency and the Beaches. Which one day we hope there will be a light rail line down that way. Jacksonville has the rail infrastructure we just need to add the stations and the trains.

[stjr]

FYI, for those touting 9B (I-795) as a savior of the port, keep in mind it was proposed years before Mitsui and Hanjin.  Just more proof the special interests got an early start on their land speculation.  Unless 9A/I-295 East is six or eight laned, that "port traffic" isn't going to make it to 9B very easily to boot.  Spend the 9B money on making 9A what it should be and we will all be better off.

Outer Beltway is pork barrel to the 10th power!  This project needs to be investigated by those crack "local" reporters all our local media claim to have (LOL!).

[tufsu1]

I would also like to clarify that the Outer Beltway would not be I-795....if it were to ever get a interstate designation, it would be an even # (like I-210 or I-495).

I'm also curious about SR 9B...just about every road that connects 2 interstates is given an even #...if the I-795 designation has already been reserved, then its likely the road will continue south from I-95.

[Ocklawaha]

Interstate numbering on NON primary routes are always 3 - digit numbers. North - South routes are always odd numbers, belt routes or loops are always even numbers as are East - West routes.

Most business spur routes have a ONE designation in front of the primary number, thus the Pensacola downtown spur is Interstate 110.

This tells us 795 is NOT a business spur, it runs North - South, is not primary to the national system.


OCKLAWAHA

[Doctor_K]

Well that, and I-195 is already in use down in Miami.

[thelakelander]

I-395 and I-595 are taken as well.  I-795 is next in line. 

Question.  What happens if you run out of three digit numbers?

[Mattius92]

The Outer Beltway is part of SR-23 and it will probably retain that name until it is up to highway standards, and that could be years after it is built. However the first phase of SR-9B will be built, so we cant really stop it, but the complete I-795 section could be stopped if we showed enough opposition. The first phase will just serve as an SR-9A/I-295 connector from US-1. Stop it there and we will be $300-400 million less in the hole. Stop the Outer Beltway we will be over $2 billion less in the hole. However, we would have to spend several hundred million revamping the existing infrastructure if they chose to drop those projects. We cant just drop them and expect everything to be fine. There is still tons of poeple in Clay and St. Johns that need better ways to commute to Jacksonville.

Odd digit four-number, like I-1195 or I-1395... dunno, just a guess.

[tufsu1]

Interstate numbering on NON primary routes are always 3 - digit numbers. North - South routes are always odd numbers, belt routes or loops are always even numbers as are East - West routes.

Not quite true Ock...only the 2-digit interstate system follows the north-south=odd and east-west=even rule....

the 3 digit systems work this way...odd # routes go to a point (like I-110 in Pcola, I-175 and I-375 in St. Pete, and I-195 and I-595 in Miami)...even # routes are loops or connect two facilities together.

As for running out of numbers, there are lots of I-295s around...I think it is only limited by state...so it seems to me that I-495, I-695, and I-895 are all available in FL...also keep in mind that if the Outer Beltway ever got a number, it could be based off of I-10 (like I-210).