Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[JeffreyS]

Good points stjr but remember connecting to the Hyatt, Hilton or Omni is probably the biggest need. Any of those sites would be fine by me.  We should probably plan to build it and then try to use site location as an incentive to get private money. ( as in whose Hotel gets to be closest)

[thelakelander]

The JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

You can accommodate this need at the courthouse/courthouse annex sites.  Also, don't forget a complex at that site would also have the Hyatt (attached to it--this is important), its meeting rooms, restaurants and ballroom space to serve as a part of the need.

[cline]

The JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

I think the issue with putting it on the Shipyard's site is that we will have then used up the last remaining vacant riverfront property.  My opinion is that the Shipyard's is better suited for private development such as what was originally planned before the whole Shipyards fiasco took place.  Plus, putting it on the old courthouse site will put convention attendees in better proximity to the downtown core.

[buckethead]

The Skyway running into (continuing to the stadium) a new convention center adjacent to the Hyatt,  would seem like a means of significantly bolstering it's ridership while honoring our commitment to it.

As far as sites go, this seems like the best available location. Businesses would likely flourish with the combination of ease of mobility coupled with destinations.

People are less attracted to an empty restaurant. Downtown will benefit from pockets of flourishing businesses. What better way to attract potential suitors to open shop in DT Jax than to show them a bustling and developing environment, with the opportunity to "get in" on the ground floor?

Bay St corridor bustling + Convention Center (Hyatt already in place) + user friendly (attractive and clean) transit + restaurants = a very inviting environ.

[thelakelander]

Regarding the Shipyards (and the JEA site), you'll also have no adjacent hotel or entertainment/dining in immediate proximity.  So your waterfront convention center will still lose out when it has to go up against its peers in every other city that provides the necessary space requirement with the additional complementing uses.  To solve this, we can incentivize these things to come into a market that can't support them on its own.  However, doing this will cost taxpayers millions more and hurt the investments we have already made in DT (ex. Hyatt, Bay Street District, Landing, etc.).

[Mattius92]

If you look at that blue line above the current courthouse in that picture I posted, that is an futuristic extension of the skyway, which was actually planned to run down water and bay street. I think Stjrs idea of creating some sort of mass transit along bay street would really boost smart building along the St. Johns. Either being the Skyway, Trolleys or heck even routine bus routes. That will really help that development.

Also I think the current courthouse position could work, but not any larger then 500,000 Sq Ft. while the old JEA site has HUGE capabilities (size and expansion wise), but it doesn't have a Hyatt next to it. (I believe it does have some hotel, but not as big as the Hyatt) Also the Hyatt already has ballrooms and meeting rooms making it even more perfect.

Stjr did you read the part in the JCCI report saying that even if they did build an 500,000 Sq ft CC, it wouldn't be used unless there is a really good infrastructure around it. That means at least 2,750 Hotel rooms within a few mile radius of the CC. And an adjacent hotel would be key, for attracting any big time conventions.

[NthDegree]

http://staugustine.com/opinions/2010-05-08/times-hand-support-passenger-rail-st-augustine

St. Augustine Record
Time's at hand to support passenger rail for St. Augustine
May 8, 2010

As hope for expanded passenger rail service builds along Florida's East Coast, the nation celebrates National Train Day today. It's an official celebration created by Amtrak to mark the 141st anniversary of transcontinental service in the United States.

Who doesn't love watching trains go by unless they are caught in a traffic tie up at a railroad crossing? Trains whisk along tracks through woodlands and fields and slow to a crawl on Main Street USA. They cross narrow bridges designed only for their tracks and slowly move through tunnels in mountains in parts north of us.

Tuesday night we are having our own version of Train Day at St. Augustine's City Hall. The Florida Department of Transportation, in conjunction with the Federal Railroad Administration, will hold a workshop on returning passenger service over the Florida East Coast Railway from Jacksonville to West Palm Beach and then to Miami via CSX rails.

It's fitting that St. Augustine is in this proposed rail system. FEC was started in St. Augustine more than a century ago by Henry M. Flagler. His railroad opened Florida's east coast to development and tourism in the late 19th century.

This 21st century grass roots effort began in Melbourne several years ago among coastal regional planning councils. It is in the hunt for $260-million-plus in federal stimulus dollars to boost business and tourism opportunities.   Daytona Beach, Melbourne, Cocoa, Titusville, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce and Stuart are the other seven proposed stops.

Imagine the possibilities not just inside Florida   but to parts elsewhere; New York, Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles.

Modern railway passenger service ended here more than 40 years ago but this proposed service could bring it back by 2012. That's a year ahead of the start of St. Augustine's two-year 450th birthday celebration.   The draw of the 450th, coupled with passenger rail service right to St. Augustine, would be a huge boost to the $700 million tourists already spend here.

We welcome state and federal officials for this workshop. It behooves our community to turn out to hear about our future in passenger rail service. Our community is not shy when it comes to speaking up about how special projects shape our future. Be a voice for our future Tuesday night. All aboard.

If you go:

The workshop is at City Hall, 75 King St., in the Alcazar Room where the St. Augustine City Commission meets. Project information will be available at 6 p.m. A formal presentation will begin at 6:30 p.m., followed by an informal question-and-answer session.

Written comments will be accepted up to 10 days after the workshop.   Comments should be addressed to Gregor Senger, FDOT Project Manager, via e-mail at gregor.senger@dot.state.fl.us, by mail to him at FDOT District Four, 3400 West Commercial Boulevard, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309, or by phone, toll-free, (866) 336-8435, ext. 4141. 



On the Web:

www2.dot.state.fl.us/publicsyndication/publicmeetings.aspx

www.nationaltrainday.com

[St. Auggie]

If we use the old courthouse site you would need to knock it down and start from the ground.

This works, and Jax is REALLY good at knocking buildings down, so this works out perfectly!

[Jaxson]

LOL @ St. Auggie.  But, nobody has perfected the art of replacing buildings with weed-choked vacant lots like Jacksonville has!

I am hopeful that the Amtrak/FEC route is open by 2012.  This is an idea whose time has come!

[Mattius92]

They better not turn the courthouse site into a vacant lot.

Too bad I will be out of Jacksonville by 2012, I will still be happy knowing that they reinstated the Passenger rail service on the FEC.

[mtraininjax]

They better not turn the courthouse site into a vacant lot.

No one is in a rush to tear it down, it costs a good couple million to tear it down, something the city does not have right now. At some point it will become part of the Hyatt and convention center, but they also need to clear City Hall and turn the whole 4 blocks into the convention area. Tearing down the old City Hall will cost $$$ as well. I think we will not see anything torn down until at least 2016-2019, give the city time to replenish the coffers.

[Mattius92]

That long for a new convention center that we should of built years ago. Hell, I am starting to loose hope in this city.

[mtraininjax]

That long for a new convention center that we should of built years ago. Hell, I am starting to loose hope in this city.

Maybe you don't read or see the news, the mayor just asked the employees of the city to take another 5% pay decrease, to get in line with the private sector. We still have 12% unemployment and real unemployment with those who have given up, and those taking temp jobs of closer to over 20%.

Its tough to spend millions to tear something down that can wait a few years, and with the whole city budget the way it is now, moving the judges, prosecutors, clerk, will cost the city millions more. Now is not the time to tear down city-owned buildings.

[stjr]

Save millions in demo costs.  The Shipyards is already a "grass covered lot"!   Shovel ready.  How 'bout some stimulus dollars? 

[Mattius92]

We could use the Shipyards, but JTA would need to get Streetcars on Bay Street. Also it does have the room for a 500,000 Sq. Ft. CC. If they are smart they might try to get someone to build a hotel next to it too.

How much you think a 500,000 Sq. Ft. CC would cost? $350 Million??