Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[urbanlibertarian]

Cmed911, the JTA wants the convention center to eventually be moved out of the current location.  Most of the posters here would favor building a new one where the current county courthouse is on Bay St. (near the Hyatt) after the new courthouse if completed.  I personally don't think that COJ should be in the convention business.

[thelakelander]

I don't know of a major american business center that is not in the convention business.  I think getting out of it will only help solidify us as a backwater "Mudville".  Instead of getting out of it, we're better off building a new public/private center that takes advantage of downtown's existing assets.

[urbanlibertarian]

If the private partner owns the land and pays ad valorem taxes ... maybe.

[thelakelander]

I need convincing guys.  Can any of you name a top American metro area or city without a convention facility?  While not a money maker, neither are libraries, mass transit, public schools and roads.  However, like the others, there are direct positive economic impacts of having them.  A new center at the current courthouse site would be a major economic benefit for our existing Northbank investments (Landing, Hyatt, Bay Street district, etc.) because the visitors who attend them, spend money and generate additional foot traffic (assuming there's something nearby to grab their attention).  It would also be a boost to our image as a place for business.

[urbanlibertarian]

Do studies show that the positive economic impact is greater than the cost to taxpayers?

[thelakelander]

Here's an old article regarding some Jacksonville studies from the past.  The article includes statements from a guy who doesn't agree but doesn't offer much detail on what he believes the actual impact would be.

The most recent study, conducted by The Florida Center for Public Policy and Leadership at the University of North Florida, examined two sets of data: The first set was 131 meeting planners polled by the Florida Center. The second set was the data from several focus groups conducted for the 2001 study by the consultant Strategic Advisory Group.

Using its own data, the Florida Center found that building a larger center downtown could generate an economic impact of up to $1.1 billion over 10 years. Expanding the existing center and building a convention center hotel would generate a slightly lower return at $1 billion. The report includes both direct and secondary effects of spending in its calculations.

Using the SAG data, the Florida Center found that building a larger center downtown could generate an economic impact as high as $2.4 billion over 10 years. Adding onto the Prime Osborn and building an adjacent hotel would create $1.3 billion in new spending.

Keeping the Prime Osborn as is would generate only $532 million in spending over 10 years.

The supply of convention center exhibit space grew slowly during the late 1990s, but increased to 7.1 percent growth last year and is projected to hit 6.6 percent growth this year, according to industry magazine Tradeshow Week.

But at the same time, convention show attendance has dropped the last few years, falling 4.9 percent last year. It is expected to fall 0.7 percent this year.

That makes the prospect of a city like Jacksonville adding space now seem to be "absolutely whacky," said Heywood Sandersa professor at the University of Texas at San Antonio and an expert on the economic impact of convention centers.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092403/bus_13611380.shtml

In any event, I do agree that the convention center needs to be booted out of the Prime Osborn.  Doing so will allow the terminal to become a hub for Amtrak service as well as local transit options.

[Ocklawaha]

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...and you thought we NEEDED high speed rail?

Florida High Speed Rail if Ocklawaha was driving:

Jacksonville - Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - from Sanford  (OPTION ONE) Intl Airport Station the railroad would shift Southeast crossing the Econ River near Chulouta and hence Southward through OIA. (the previous route segment is based on the FDOT plan to land trains at the Orlando Airport one highly suspect in my book)  Beyond OIA, the railroad would curve slightly west passing through Winter Haven, Lake Wales, Frostproof and Sebring before curving back Southeast to West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami.  (OPTION TWO) Enters most towns on conventional track - operates between cities on exclusive high speed target 130-180 mph).

Jacksonville Terminal- Miami via the FLORIDA EAST Coast Ry, conventional Amtrak trains with very high frequency services, target 90-120 mph average. Full service trains interspersed with coach - lounge trains. Resetting the signals for the entire railroad, addition of long passing sidings, overpasses and proper signals

Jacksonville - Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - Sanford -  Orlando - Auburndale - Lakeland = TAMPA UNION STATION.  Features hourly target headways, otherwise same as JAX-MIAMI route.l

TAMPA UNION STATION - Miami, Tampa - via Tampa Cutoff, a new high speed track from Tampa to the vicinity of Sebring, hence via the Miami route.  130-180 mph target speeds.   

Jacksonville - Starke - Gainesville - Ocala - Leesburg - Tavares - Apopka - Orlando DOWNTOWN AMTRAK STATION. 90 mph target speeds with standard Amtrak Equipment.

Lakeland - Arcadia - Ft. Myers - Naples.    75 mph connecting train to Jax-Tampa Trains. 

Tampa - Sarasota - Venice .  70 mph target speed, connecting train to Jax - Tampa Trains.

Jacksonville - Baldwin - Lake City - Tallahassee - Pensacola.  Target speeds up to 180 mph, average 90 mph. Higher frequency JAX-TALLY, but no less then 5 trains each way daily JAX-Pensacola.


Maybe I should map it out, but beats the hell out of Tampa-Miami via ORLANDO, or ORLANDO INTL AIRPORT where Orlando Amtrak would do the job. Also makes max use of existing Amtrak equipment, with dedicated new trains where warranted.

ANY THOUGHTS?

OCKLAWAHA                                                      

[tufsu1]

Here's another study on a potential new convention center...done by JCCI in 2007

http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/pages/studiesbytopic.html

[Mattius92]

78,000 Sq.Ft. at the POCC, good god, that is pitiful. After visiting the 2.5 Million Sq. Ft. Kentucky Exposition center in 2009. I was amazed on how pitiful our current convention center was. I am all for reconverting the Prime back to the great Jacksonville Terminal it used to be.

JCCI's idea of building an new CC next to the 966-bed Hyatt is an good idea, and most of the infrastructure is already there. Plus its on the river, which is another key component our city is known for. Mobiles convention center should be a example of what Jacksonville needs in an CC. It has two 50,000 Sq.Ft. Exhibit Halls, and two 15,000 Sq. Ft. Ballrooms. This is about the size that would support Jacksonville for a while. But the JCCI does point out that eventually Jacksonville will need an 500,000 sq. ft. CC. However it cant be done adjacent to Hyatt, due to the lack of space.

[fsujax]

Lake, I agree with you. I do not see how we CANT be in the convention business. Nobody is saying we need to compete with Orlando or Atlanta, but for crying outloud we should be able to compete against Mobile or Jackson, MS

[Doctor_K]

Old Courthouse conversion, anyone?

[Mattius92]

I dont think converting the old courthouse to a CC would work. Depends if it will stay up with a majority of the walls knocked out. Leveling the courthouse and building an extension off the Hyatt will probably be the best bet. Since the Hyatt already has ballrooms, they will just need to add exhibit halls.

[JeffreyS]

If we use the old courthouse site you would need to knock it down and start from the ground.

[Mattius92]

Now look at that picture and you might be able to visualize what a convention center would like there. I say level the current courthouse once the new one is built, build the CC on that ugly, hot surface lot, thats right on the river and the river walk. And build a nice parking facility behind it, on the actual road.

[stjr]

The JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

The Shipyards site has the advantage of dovetailing with the existing large scale parking of the stadium, arena, and baseball grounds as well as using the arena as a "connecting" venue for large meetings, conventioneer entertainment or large scale presentations,  or exhibits on its floor.  It's also on the extended riverwalk, near the metro park marina (in addition to any built at the shipyards), not too far from the Hyatt, and would connect very well with an intermodal center at the Prime Osborne site, the Hyatt, the T-U auditorium, other amenities of the Downtown, and the stadium/arena areas with a Bay Street trolley.  Development on the balance of the Shipyards could include hotels.  This would create a continuous strip of riverfront development from the stadium to the Fuller Warren Bridge which could be leveraged into landward opportunities.