SPAR's Main Street Property Enhancement Program

[ChriswUfGator]

Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;

Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield

Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.

I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.

The wording said “free” correct? Because “free” to most people means “no cost,” or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free” “donations,” while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free” here, or what?

There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.

But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.” And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,” e.g., “SPAR was able to secure” and “The products were able to be donated” which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.

As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.

Get where I’m going with this?

So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.

The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.

So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.

This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.

Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...

How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?

[CityLife]

Im enjoying the beautiful spring day outside!  Welcome to the wondrous amazing wireless world we live in!

CityLife I hope you do drop by the meeting tonight!

It is a beaut isn't it? What is this wireless you speak of?

I would like to attend but I've got a lot going on. If I can't make tonight, I'll be there in the next week or so.

[CityLife]

Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;

Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield

Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.

I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.

The wording said “free” correct? Because “free” to most people means “no cost,” or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free” “donations,” while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free” here, or what?

There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.

But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.” And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,” e.g., “SPAR was able to secure” and “The products were able to be donated” which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.

As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.

Get where I’m going with this?

So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.

The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.

So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.

This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.

Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...

How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?

Your interpretation of my posts was built on a lack of understanding of the program.

Let the state of Florida, SPAR, and Main Street business owners worry about the finances of the program.

We are trying our best to help out the Main Street business owners in these tough times.

[ChriswUfGator]

Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;

Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield

Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.

I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.

The wording said “free” correct? Because “free” to most people means “no cost,” or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free” “donations,” while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free” here, or what?

There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.

But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.” And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,” e.g., “SPAR was able to secure” and “The products were able to be donated” which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.

As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.

Get where I’m going with this?

So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.

The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.

So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.

This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.

Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...

How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?

Your interpretation of my posts was built on a lack of understanding of the program.

This is getting laughable. I simply went back to your first post on this topic and accurately quoted your own words. For those who aren't aware, CityLife and JTR are the same poster.

So I'm sorry, but there is no lack of understanding. You said "ABC" and then reality wound up being "XYZ." I've asked you to explain the difference, but all you've done is throw around a bunch of figures without disclosing how they're calculated.

And all of my alleged "misinformation" came from directly quoting YOUR OWN POSTS on this subject.

[jason_contentdg]

The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.

There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.

Thanks for your interest.

Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.

That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?

How many people have actually signed up for this?

Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.

If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.

Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.

Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.

So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?

I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....

Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.

Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.

It seems as though you're throwing a lot of percentages around without saying exactly how they're calculated. So when you say "65%", for example, do you mean 65% of COST or 65% of RETAIL? Because, going back to my original point here, nobody's paying retail these days anyway.

And this is a "yes" or "no" question; Does the contractor get paid in full for the value of their "donation"?

To really assess this, what I want to know is, are any of these "donors" actually donating anything?

Where does his post say anything at all about contractors?  From the beginning the discounts and donations were for material, and design services.  The businesses could hire whomever they wanted to for construction purposes.

[ChriswUfGator]

The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.

There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.

Thanks for your interest.

Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.

That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?

How many people have actually signed up for this?

Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.

If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.

Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.

I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.

Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.

So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?

I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....

Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.

Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.

It seems as though you're throwing a lot of percentages around without saying exactly how they're calculated. So when you say "65%", for example, do you mean 65% of COST or 65% of RETAIL? Because, going back to my original point here, nobody's paying retail these days anyway.

And this is a "yes" or "no" question; Does the contractor get paid in full for the value of their "donation"?

To really assess this, what I want to know is, are any of these "donors" actually donating anything?

Where does his post say anything at all about contractors?  From the beginning the discounts and donations were for material, and design services.  The businesses could hire whomever they wanted to for construction purposes.

The construction materials that were donated pursuant to this initiative were initially stated as "free" in his own post, and later it was added that the business owner would pay 10% of the cost of the item.

The reality has turned into that the business owner is now paying multiples of what was originally stated to be a "free" or almost-free donation-based program. So naturally, I have a few questions. You're welcome to answer them if you know.

1: Were these supplies/items as mentioned on his list actually donated?

2: Why did the cost go up?

3: Who's getting the money?

4: Care to explain the difference between the original statement of the program, e.g. "free" or 10% of cost, vs. the reality, which is significantly higher?

5: Is SPAR collecting any money off these donated items?

I have more, but that should be a good start.

[ChriswUfGator]

Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...

[jason_contentdg]

I don't know the answers, but I'm not the one continuously asking about these donated contractor services when that part of the program never existed. I know that answer.

I assume, he can answer those questions for you.  I'm not sure how much priority he is placing on it since it seems like a program that would matter very little to you.  Seems like it would be a big waste of time, to me.  But that's SPAR's business.

[jason_contentdg]

Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...

Chris, good luck in trying to solve this mystery...

[AlexS]

As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below

http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM

[ChriswUfGator]

As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below

http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM

I understand what a friggin' community tax incentive program is, Alex. That's not the point. Why can nobody answer the question here? The two biggies are;

A: Why are the recipient businesses now being charged the cost of items that were originally "donated" or "free"?

and;

B: Who's getting the money?

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

all these nested quotes are making me awfully dizzy.

[CityLife]

Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...

Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.

Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.

[ChriswUfGator]

Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...

Chris, good luck in trying to solve this mystery...

Considering this "free" program was supposed to be SPAR's public display of affection and effectiveness within the neighborhood, I hardly think I'm out of line in asking why certain promises haven't materialized, and I really don't think it should be any "mystery" considering it was originally SPAR that made it a public example in the first place...

[ChriswUfGator]

Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...

Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.

Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.

CityLife, that post of mine you're quoting was not aimed at you, but rather at Jason, who was making a rather silly argument about my use of the word "contractor". Nobody builds their own commercial signage, and nobody builds their own commercial awnings, both of which are fully custom items, and my post simply pointed that out. It was not directed at you.

Also, I have never met you, but if we ever did meet, please rest assured I would be more than cordial and would happily buy you a drink and have a pleasant conversation. My questions about what happened to this program aren't aimed at you personally, and I certainly do not have any problem with you personally.