New Hogan's Creek master plan

[chris farley]

Hasn't anyone read SPAR Speak about Lisa this week, it is ISTEA Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act, only applies on projects on a Federal Highway and only the matching funds required by these grants were held in the club accounts.  The DOT portion goes directly to the parks and is administrated by them. Nothing can be done on that side of Confederate Park, along the creek,  until the contamination problem is solved, so the other benefits were given.
I.E. a circa $250,000 dog park. rose arbor, restoration of statues, trees, lighting, fencing, irrigation.and interest (on matching funds) contribution to the fountain. In all close to 1,000,000 spent on the parks.  There were several grants achieved, not all ISTEA, and the club sold 5 lots of land it had to pay the major portion of the fountain.  Confederate Park was an unfenced garbage strewn  swamp until the first grant was achieved, and this was done before it was decided that the park was contaminated. 
This story has been told many times

FSU since being a volunteer in Springfield, and being told no good deed goes unpunished, I have a teflon skin now

[chris farley]

That is not so.  I saw many of the written suggestions taken at the Karpeles incorporated, one of which was the possible removal of the Health Center which was built on park land.  A couple of weeks ago I was invited to walk the creek and parks with Jennifer Holbrooke and Kevin White and talk first hand about what I thought about the area, and water control.  I felt it was an enlightening walk for all of us.  These plans are not cast in concrete (pun intended) and are evolving, also there are many many problems, like the contamination, to overcome.  At least something is moving and attention is once again being drawn to an area, which even today in its shabby dress, is a thing of beauty - "which is a joy for ever".
They are looking at a long hard slog to get anything achieved, it was 3 1/2 years from idea to completion on the fountain, at least they are trying, listening and putting stuff out for all to see. The decision to spend the money was that of the parks and city representative, they thought it worthwile.

[Dan B]

Well said Chris.

The people involved are passionate and sincerely want to do whats right. Whats needed is proactive and positive input and interaction, not darts and daggers.

[thelakelander]

I can.  So what are the positives of the plan?  If those can be combined with some of the issues discussed on line, we'll have ourselves a pretty good final product.

[ChriswUfGator]

How about incorporating a museum devoted to North Florida and Jacksonville history, in one of the historic buildings they want to tear down (but not the Park View, obviously)? It could be fully integrated with the park and outdoor spaces, making the place something of a destination. Like a pretty, public, Cummer except historically themed.

They could even put that locomotive that's rusting into the ground over by the Prime Osborn inside on the ground floor, as the ceilings would be high enough. Then Ock would have a reason to go.

[zoo]

Great idea, Chris.

Along the same line as the train engine suggestion, there is actually a 1920s era, no longer operational, water pump inside the Waterworks lab building -- I'd guess it's about 30-40 ft long, and approx 12-15 ft wide.

JEA loosely "offered" the historic pump to anyone who could remove it from their site and promise to maintain it. Obviously, they can't do this without municipal ok, and I understand there is a JEA historian that would want to make sure it was going to be cared for.

PPS even suggested it would make an interesting, sculptural play/kid structure if it could be brought out into the park. COJ seemed very uncomfortable with that idea.

Just mentioning it so anyone that's interested can pursue the issue further. It's a cool, historical piece of equipment, and it'd be a shame to let it sit and degrade to its eventual death...

[fsu813]

Good things:

- All the outdoor sports areas in a somewhat concentrated area. Not sure if volleyball would be used much, the rest would do fine.

- water features

- continuity between the parks

- jogging/ bike trail

- clear and prominent signage at the entrances

- effort to stem the flooding problem

- the open gathering spaces of different sizes

- closing road to cars

Bad things:

- perhaps a little too subruban/modern in design

- possible loss of orginal ballustrades (possible)

- moving a dog park that was just built (if the new one is the same size, then i don't have a porblme with it...just seems like a waste

[thelakelander]

the introduction of fountains along the path is a good feature.

I dunno lake, if the park were in a suburb It would be just wonderful I suppose, but there isnt anything marvelous that jumps out of it with the exception of the skate park being built into it and some of the wetland plantings--pending the solution to the landfill actions of the 60s.  At least it paves the way to bio remediation.

We have a chance to do a really first class municipal park, Id like to see something exquisite happen here.

I disagree.  There are several positives in the conceptual plan.  Many of which have been discussed online in the suggestion thread you linked to earlier.  Here are a few I see.

1. Using Karpeles as an anchor for a public square atmosphere.  This a good starting point for an urban public space that can draw people north of State & Union.  It also is a good north anchor for possibly extending the Laura Street streetscape project.  My only suggestion here would be to pull the block south of 1st into the plan a little more.  While we may have no control over what FSCJ does, we can have a strong influence by making sure the public boarder encourages integration from nearby neighbors (FSCJ & Bethel).

Example: Assuming the greenway is still in the works, an example of designing the block south of 1st to better interact with Bethel and FSCJ could be as simple as including direct multi-use path connections to their properties.



2. Going natural just north of First Street.  For years, people have mentioned the idea of a botanical garden along Hogans Creek.  Like you, I am in favor of preserving as much of the balustrade as possible.  However, most of this section has already disappeared due to heavy decay.  The way the space is drawn out between 1st and 2nd Streets, gives me the impression of a natural planted area surrounded by an urban public space.  There is also a connection with the State Health Department buildings in the park space just north 1st.  Imo, all that it needs is a major tot lot or something.  That would benefit the urban residential community and help pull Bethel into the mix a little more.

Example:A mix of a pedestrian hardscape and natural greenscape, like this area along the Indianapolis Canal Walk, is indicating between 1st and 2nd.


Another example could be the inclusion of a interactive kiddle pool.  The mayor likes these things.  Combine it with a tot lot and you have another "family-friendly" (COJ likes that term, lol) amenity that pulls in more people between DT and Springfield.



3. An interative mix of active and passive uses at Schell Park.  There are tons of comments at MJ and at various public meetings over the years about making the space more active.  This conceptual plan has that.  While I have my doubts that the health department will move anytime soon, assuming I'm wrong (I haven't attended any meetings so I could be), the only thing really needed is an interactive space along 8th, Jefferson and Boulevard.  Imo, a well designed BRT transit stop with vending space would be a nice element to have.  That would benefit park users, BRT passengers and nearby medical employees.

Example: Public owned vending space and restrooms along the Detroit Riverwalk (since COJ doesn't like private entities operating in public spaces).





Anyway, these are just a few examples of things that have been stated here and from around the community for years, that have been included in the concepts produced so far.  Combine elements like these, with better connectivity and historic preservation (ex. I love the water pump concept Zoo just mentioned) and this thing will be highly successful.

[thelakelander]

Bad things:

- perhaps a little too subruban/modern in design

- possible loss of orginal ballustrades (possible)

- moving a dog park that was just built (if the new one is the same size, then i don't have a porblme with it...just seems like a waste

If money is really a concern (that's what has been said about saving the balustrades), then don't move or alter things that are fine right were they are today and have been in the past.  These would include:

1. The dog park

2. The tennis courts

3. Klutho Park's baseball field

4. Klutho Park's soccer field/green space

5. Health department.  The place sucks but it can be worked around if "moving" funds would be better off being used elsewhere.

6. Making Orange pedestrian only between Ocean & Hubbard (unless the private entity developing a project on the ajacent privately owned block pays for it.).

7. Park View Inn site.  Leave in hands of private sector for future development.

[fsu813]

I just think they didn't want the added work / complications and thought it wouldn't be a big deal to simpley put new ballustrades there instead. That's the impression I got, but I could be wrong.

[thelakelander]

Great idea, Chris.

Along the same line as the train engine suggestion, there is actually a 1920s era, no longer operational, water pump inside the Waterworks lab building -- I'd guess it's about 30-40 ft long, and approx 12-15 ft wide.

JEA loosely "offered" the historic pump to anyone who could remove it from their site and promise to maintain it. Obviously, they can't do this without municipal ok, and I understand there is a JEA historian that would want to make sure it was going to be cared for.

PPS even suggested it would make an interesting, sculptural play/kid structure if it could be brought out into the park. COJ seemed very uncomfortable with that idea.

Just mentioning it so anyone that's interested can pursue the issue further. It's a cool, historical piece of equipment, and it'd be a shame to let it sit and degrade to its eventual death...

I like this idea.  Even if it can't be used to let kids play on, it could be a historical monument or focal point.  Imagine the block bounded by Laura, 1st, Hogan and Phelps as more of a public square type of place.  The old pumps could be preserved as a central monument (public art) that could be lit at night.  Surrounding it, you could have something like a playground and interactive fountain.  Those three elements on that site could be significant enough (with the Karpeles space), to pull in traffic from FSCJ, Bethel, DT and Springfield (connectivity).


Example: Gas Works Park in Seattle


Example: Old steel making equipment included in a fountain at Station Sqaure in Pittsburgh

[sheclown]

If we don't have the money to save the Klutho designed spaces, then adding other items to the shopping list seems irresponsible.  We are stewards of this space.  Today fancy canals might be out of fashion, but I hardly think that gives us the right to make changes to this historic treasure.

Do we really think we can out design Klutho?

Fix the locks, fix the balustrades, leave the rest alone. 

[thelakelander]

I just think they didn't want the added work / complications and thought it wouldn't be a big deal to simpley put new ballustrades there instead. But I could be wrong.

The creek really isn't that deep.  If its cleaned, they could probably not consider even putting in new ones.  That would save some bucks for preservation.

Indianapolis Canal Walk


San Antonio Riverwalk




Riverscape Metro Park - Dayton


Northshore - Pittsburgh


Inner Harbor - Baltimore


San Diego

[zoo]

Fix the locks, fix the balustrades, leave the rest alone.

Locks and pumphouses are gone, ponds and their spillways are filled and lost. These are the things that made the Klutho/Imeson plan a successful stormwater management system, and with that water control, a nice park.

Can't fix missing locks. If only the balustrades are restored, without figuring out how to manage the water, the system will continue to flood and finish the ruination of the remaining historical features (restored balustrade).

[Charles Hunter]

True, you can't "fix" what isn't there, but you can install new water-control locks.  It is important, even with a means to keep the St. Johns out, is the need to retain runoff from the areas surrounding the Park.  This may need to include ponds outside the Park, to intercept run-off before it gets to the park.  This could reduce the space in the park taken up by ponds.  Also, the flood plain could be designed to flood in extreme conditions - that would mean no permanent buildings in the floodplain.