New Hogan's Creek master plan

[Dan B]

While I can acknowledge that I am not completely enamoured with the whole plan, calling it dangerous is a bit over the top.

[fsujax]

we haven't even really seen the whole plan yet have we? I have only seen sketches. Keep the balustrades!

[ChriswUfGator]

While I can acknowledge that I am not completely enamoured with the whole plan, calling it dangerous is a bit over the top.

really?

I guess then that you know the basis of my opinion then.  Why dont you point out whats wrong with my reasoning?  Im quite interested to know.

Dan should read up on the philosophical paradox of the Ship of Theseus...

How many important historic structures (including Klutho's balustrades) can you demolish or remove, before you get to the stage where you've torn apart the fabric of what made it special in the first place?

With so many vacant lots and decay already, how much more are you willing to lose?

[fsu813]

Stephen,

At the meeting, well attended, where the plan was unveiled the consensus was very positive. A few details here or there to pick over, but all in all very positive.

Noone mentioned "out of the question" or "dangerous".

Where were you at the various public meetings when public input was gathered, or when the rough draft was first unveiled to the community?

Wish you could have found the time to attend any of them. Obviously you have some strong feelings about it.

[sheclown]

How could anyone POSSIBLY want to remove the balustrades?  What is the reasoning behind that?

[fsu813]

The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.

[sheclown]

If they are "period-authentic" wouldn't that mean just replacing the missing ones?  That's what you do when you are restoring a home.

Did they say what material the new ones would be made of?  Will they be the same design?  Period authentic could mean anything...

[thelakelander]

The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.

^Of course its easy to replace history than finding a way to preserve it.  Sounds a lot like Genrty in the Ambassador Hotel thread.  Anyway, I may be off track, but the balustrades are the one significant iconic architectural element the parks have that set them apart from any other public space in the Southeast.  It may not be feasible to save the entire thing (half of it is already gone), but its a bad move to not attempt to preserve any of it.

[ChriswUfGator]

The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.

^Of course its easy to replace history than finding a way to preserve it.  Sounds a lot like Genrty in the Ambassador Hotel thread.  Anyway, I may be off track, but the balustrades are the one significant iconic architectural element the parks have that set them apart from any other public space in the Southeast.  It may not be feasible to save the entire thing (half of it is already gone), but its a bad move to not attempt to preserve any of it.

+1,000,000

Everybody should read up on "Ship of Theseus" and go from there. I can't believe anyone is even suggesting this.

Klutho was a Frank Lloyd Wright student for chrissakes. He's the only nationally significant architect we have locally. I can't believe ANYONE is considering tearing down ANYTHING he designed. It's ridiculous.

[Dan B]

The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.

I believe Joel Mecechen told me that the cast for the original balustrade is still around. I dont remember if he said it was in the company's possession, or the city's.

I could be mistaken, but I think I remember hearing that.

Choosing preservation over replacement would be a decision that was incread the cost exponentially, however, its one that should sincerely be looked at. Even if its a matter of pulling whats there out, and repairing/redoing the creek banks, and putting them back into place with matching replacements for the parts missing, I think its worth looking at.

I would also love to see the lighting restored to the bridges and rails.

I know these are small ideas, but I hope that are in line with the over all vision.

[sheclown]

Dan, I agree.

We could use an old one and make a cast for that matter if the original can't be found.

[ChriswUfGator]

The presenters touched on that in the meeting. Continuity and cost were given as reasons why they want to have new period-authentic balustrades. They said that the current balustrades were in various states of disrepair, for the most part, and it would be easier simply to replace them all instead of picking and choosing which segments would be worth rehabbing and would last a long time. More than one person didn't like the sound of that and wanted some additional thought put into using at least some of the original balustrades for the project.

I believe Joel Mecechen told me that the cast for the original balustrade is still around. I dont remember if he said it was in the company's possession, or the city's.

I could be mistaken, but I think I remember hearing that.

Choosing preservation over replacement would be a decision that was incread the cost exponentially, however, its one that should sincerely be looked at. Even if its a matter of pulling whats there out, and repairing/redoing the creek banks, and putting them back into place with matching replacements for the parts missing, I think its worth looking at.

I would also love to see the lighting restored to the bridges and rails.

I know these are small ideas, but I hope that are in line with the over all vision.

Holy hell.

<earth stops spinning> <hell freezes over> <pigs are flying by outside my window>

Dan B, we actually agree 110%.

I can't believe anyone would even suggest a plan that didn't include restoring the ORIGINAL balustrades, as well as the ORIGINAL bridges, and lighting. WTF is the point of having anything historic in the first place, if you can just replace it at will with something cheaper when it's easier or more convenient?

I'm seriously disappointed in this proposed plan.

[fsu813]

I think saving all the balustrades that are in decent condition and concentrating them in one segment would be ideal. No continuity issues then and i'd guess the city would be ok withthe understanding that we won't bitch and they won't fix them when they start to fall apart in another ___ years.

[ChriswUfGator]

I think saving all the balustrades that are in decent condition and concentrating them in one segment would be ideal. No continuity issues then and i'd guess the city would be ok withthe understanding that we won't bitch and they won't fix them when they start to fall apart in another ___ years.

All the historic houses are wood and require extra maintenance because of it, too. So you gonna raze the whole place, and replace them with stucco'd el-cheapo versions because maintenance is cheaper? That argument holds zero water.

They should fix them whenever they need fixing. Actually, they shouldn't even need fixing in the first place, because at some stage over the last 100 years someone should have done some maintenance on the damned things. Instead it's just become hobo-central while COJ entirely forgot it even existed.

Someone should go to Savannah and 'enlighten' them about how much money they'd save if they quit maintaining that stupid fountain...

[sheclown]

whatever the old ones are replaced with... the new ones won't last 1/10th of the time the old ones did.