New Hogan's Creek master plan

[tufsu1]

whatever the old ones are replaced with... the new ones won't last 1/10th of the time the old ones did.

what if they used the same materials?

[fsu813]

All the historic houses are wood and require extra maintenance because of it, too. So you gonna raze the whole place, and replace them with stucco'd el-cheapo versions because maintenance is cheaper? That argument holds zero water.

They should fix them whenever they need fixing. Actually, they shouldn't even need fixing in the first place, because at some stage over the last 100 years someone should have done some maintenance on the damned things. Instead it's just become hobo-central while COJ entirely forgot it even existed.

Someone should go to Savannah and 'enlighten' them about how much money they'd save if they quit maintaining that stupid fountain...

- No, Chris. You are mistaken about what the argument is. If the city owned all the houses in Springfield, yes, they probably would rebuild them, once they fell, with longer-lasting materials. Less maintaince = less money & less liability. They city doesn't own all the houses though. Try again.

- Yes, they should have been maintained better. Many things should have been done better. thanks for noticing. The city wants cost-effective. Moving and rehabbing the old ones isn't as cost-effective. If it was, i'm sure they go that route. I'm not sure how much leeway there is in the budget, neither do you, so we can't say what the city should do. I'd like them to consolidate & fix the old ones as well, but we don't know if it's financially doable.

- if the fountain was half-way fallen apart i'm sure they would listen and think about it.

[chris farley]

Unless you did what Imeson did that kept the river and the tides out, no plan will work - and if this is not done and walls and ballustrades are removed, then "nature will out" you will be back to a swamp with 100 year old garbage floating in the river. The plans do not allow for the 15 to 20 acre lake we have during heavy rain and high tide. You can tell when the tide is in by the water in Market Street.  The swamp underneath the park is tidal.  I have said this at every meeting at which I have been present.  Again,  they dredged and bulkheaded the creek in 1906, it lasted about 3 years, and that is when the Woman's Club started campaigning to get the problem fixed once and forever.  The forever lasted until there was gross neglect by the city and the flood gates at the river were removed. If you walk the creek you can see where more and more walls are in trouble.  Also note there are no trees along the creek per se, the tree line is about 100 yards away, the land will not hold trees, even now we see them topple during floods near the ball park. We know the oceans are rising, if Italy can build huge locks to keep the water out of St. Marks Square in Venice(it was getting to be 14 inches in high tides)
and Holland can build even more gigantic  ones to keep the North sea from taking back land, couldn't we get one little lock to stop the incoming water, then talk about spending millions on the park.  The river groups and people are against this, so I do not think it will happen, it is sad that the wet lands and swamp are mid-town and so collect garbage, carts and maybe bodies, they could be left natural like the inlets on the way to Fernandina, but then the parks would be lost.  The powers that be have to decide that they will keep spending in the years to come or let it all go  au naturel,  sorry I am in a bad mood tonight.  Also any removal probably would need consent of the Historic people, and Klutho considered the Venetian Waterway, his greatest achievement.

[fsu813]

Your concerns were specifically addressed at the meeting when you raised them.

- a new lock system is not in the budget and much more complicated

- the design does account for the 20 acre lake. the creek would be expanded in various areas, nodes along the creek would be formed to essentially store water, and a buffer area would be formed to allow the creek to expand. Thus there will be no central lake, but the creek would hold more volume throughout it's path

- obviously i disgaree with you in saying that NO plan will work unless the tides are kept out. while i would prefer a lock system as well, that's not going to happen. the expanded volume of the creek should alleviate overflow, though not oversaturation per say. it'll be interesting to find out more details at the next meeting.

[zoo]

Missing from this group of images is the one of the restored pond at Pearl and 4th (where the curved balustrade sits in the middle of the grass). Preservation of the balustrades is a priority, but will depend entirely on the condition of them as they currently exist. Locks and pumps are not ruled out at this point. All connectivity issues -- to Downtown, transit locations, and surrounding institutions, commercial corridors and residential areas -- as well as input given at multiple community and stakeholder interviews and meetings, are being considered.

[fsu813]

wow. i wonder what the cost of a new lock/pump system would be?

we've seen a version without a lock/pump system, wonder what would have to be excluded with the added costs....and what the expected effectiveness would be

[ChriswUfGator]

Lake, could we get a re-post of the original wooden spillways that were posted on MJ before?

I don't recall what thread they were in, but I think seeing them would help a lot to remind everyone of how simple, inexpensive, and long-lasting the originals were. This thing doesn't have to be the Hoover Dam, we just need a simple flood-control device. It doesn't have to be complicated or expensive.

[cindi]

they are currently "re-doing" the Health Department, with construction going full force.  what is the likelyhood that they would put all of that money into a building to turn around and tear it down?

[fsu813]

hmmmm........maybe they are stripping it? (hopefully)

[cindi]

not sure.  there are construction dumpsters and it looks pretty "neked" inside.  i will try and pay better attention to see. or, maybe, i'll just go ask one of the workers.

[chris farley]

Quote
Yes, they should have been maintained better. Many things should have been done better. thanks for noticing. The city wants cost-effective. Moving and rehabbing the old ones isn't as cost-effective Unquote

Actually it is, Mack Bissette became a disciple and put an article on the SPAR forum on just this subject.  It is not just the cost of the materials but the depletion of materials and resources , that counts.  In a green world  the ultimate cost of restoring an old building is much better than throwing it away and building anew.  When I see Mack I will ask him for the article, but Sprinfield Girl maybe you have it, it was a great piece

It is like people think that getting rid of old single glass windows and replacing them with double glazing,  the president of HPC talked about this at an awards ceremony,  yes you will save money but it will take in the region of 400 years to do this.

[fsu813]

don't shoot the messanger

[sheclown]

In the early 90s, Lisa Neary and Melissa Miller wrote and were awarded a ICETEA grant for $250,000 to repair the balustrades.  Ed Austen was mayor at the time.  Apparently, the money was held in the Women's Club account and earned interest for years because the work couldn't be done due to the environmental issues.  Phil says that the interest money was used for street signs and other improvements around the neighborhood.

Is any of the proposed work going to be paid for by this grant?  Or was the grant already used for other things? 

[chris farley]

Honestly FSU I didn't mean to shoot you

[fsu813]

s'ok Ms. Farley, i'm bullet proof anyways =)


sheclown,

wow....that would a great resource if it's still avilable...