TPO plan includes $777M in bus, commuter rail and more

[stjr]

Let's see what's "good" and "bad" in the TPO plan and the associated costs:

GOOD:
Trolleys/streetcars: $105 million
Commuter rail: $350 million
Amtrak to Miami: $268 million
CSX Green Cove Line Study: $4 million
Bicycle Paths:  $55.8 million

TOTAL "GOOD": $782.8 million = Less than 16% of the $5 Billion total for effective innovative transit = A GIANT MISSED OPPORTUNITY THAT WILL SET US BACK FOR DECADES!

BAD:
Outer Beltway: $1.8 Billion
BRT: $151 million

TOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!

Mixed Bag, but "Bad" as planned:
Transportation Center: $110 million = A potential fiasco unless completely redesigned.

Neutral:
Mathews Bridge Six Lanes: $45 million (How can they add 6 lanes to the Matthews Bridge for "only" $45 million?  Is this a typo?  What exactly is the plan there?)

UNKOWN:
More roads* and possibly even more urban sprawl: $2.1112 Billion = Another 42% of the $5 Billion  (*Not sure what else is unaccounted for by the article, so I have to assume the "Unknown" is all roads based on the pie chart and "business as usual".)

Once again, we are wasting precious time and resources chasing rainbows rather than firmly planting our feet on the ground and taking the real bull by the horns.  Don't we have anyone at JTA,TPO, and/or COJ with real VISION and LEADERSHIP to lead this community into the 21st century?

Rest assured, that over the 20 to 25 year life of this new "plan", between rising energy costs, the lack of ability to sustain urban sprawl and our quality of life, and the sure-to-come crackdown on alleged global warming carbon emissions, the last thing this community should be doing is prioritizing the automobile by spending over 80% of our transit dollars on it.

Until this community shows signs of being more progressive, we will continue to be viewed from both the outside and inside as a backwater city featuring the "gang that couldn't shoot straight".            Good luck raising our living standards and growing jobs this way.

[jandar]

LOL

The Outer Beltway will start in Clay County @ I-295 and connect I-10 on the westside and I-95 in St Johns County?

I-295 is all Duval County, except for a tiny tiny tiny part the dips onto Clay County.

Sorry, this article should have been proof checked first.


Parts of the FCOB are a good idea, it became a bad idea when the developers got greedy and got the route moved south, then it sucked.

Clay has tried to alleviate Blanding & 17 traffic. Duval residents kill the Wells Rd Extension, they fight the wells to Collins rd overpass.
Branan Field/Chaffee is not a panacea nor is it a pipe dream.

[jandar]

Current work/imminent work on FCOB:

Branan Field â€" Chaffee Expressway (State Road 23)  Build overpass at Plantation Oaks
Boulevard. Superior Construction Company of Jacksonville and ARCADIS should begin in
November 2009 and finish in 440 days (Early 2011) at a cost of $7,250,000. This is a
design/build project and is funded using federal economic stimulus funding

Adding paved shoulders from Old
Jennings Road to Kindlewood Drive (3.9 miles). APAC-Southeast, Inc., of Lutz began Sept. 14,
2009 and should finish in 120 days (early 2010) at a cost of $1,375,048.64

Design to add lanes from Blanding Boulevard
(State Road 21) to the Duval County line (3.8 miles) is underway

College Avenue Extension (formerly known as the Cleveland Connector)   Design to
construct new roadway between Blanding Boulevard (State Road 21) and Branan Field Chaffee
Road (State Road 23) to begin in 2012/13

[cline]

TOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!

The FCOB isn't being built with taxpayer dollars.  It won't get built unless there is a public-private partnership in place to fund it.  At this point (in a recession), who knows if there is a private company willing to put up that kind of money.

[stjr]

TOTAL "BAD": $1.951 Billion = 39% minimum of the $5 Billion Total for urban sprawl and proven INeffective transit = A GIANT WASTE of TAXPAYER $$$$!

The FCOB isn't being built with taxpayer dollars.  It won't get built unless there is a public-private partnership in place to fund it.  At this point (in a recession), who knows if there is a private company willing to put up that kind of money.

Cline, it would still be mostly paid for by the money from local taxpayers through tolls.  It just won't be "laundered" through government.  And, if the private sector fails to find it feasible, I doubt the idea will fade away.  Clay and St. Johns will just wait until the State is in better economic shape and revisit the money well.  20 to 25 years is a long time and these projects, once "planned" like this have a habit of finally getting built, one way or the other.

I already asked on another MJ Outer Beltway thread if this project would be DOA once and for all if private financing failed and I don't recall getting a clear answer.  Do you have one?

[fsujax]

Well, no one is going to be forced to use the FCOB. If someone choses to pay the toll then thats on them. I think we should at least be thankful that at last we finally got real transit projects in the long range plan. Do many of you realize this is a first? it takes real people who have a vision working within JTA with the TPO and thier consultants to make sure this happens. At least it's something. Now we have to be diligent to make sure things like streetcars anc commuter rail move forward. This will only happen when the TPO, JTA Board and City Council hear from us live at their meetings.

[Joe]

Yeah, In a weird way, I'm oddly indifferent to the FCOB.

On one hand, I think it's a really dumb plan. It will only bring more sprawl to Clay County and has dubious merit as an economic development tool. It's also INSANE that they want to replace the Shands Bridge, rather than build a new bridge in between Shands and Buckman.

On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with this as long as it's a privately funded toll road. If private citizens want to pay to build it, and pay to drive on it, that's fine by me.

I'd be more worried about the endless array of government-funded road widening projects that could take away funding from Commuter Rail and Streetcars. Like fsujax said, JTA and City Council needs to hear that people support these rail projects. Otherwise, they might conclude that widening our arterial streets to 20 lanes is the appropriate solution. 

[cline]

I think we should at least be thankful that at last we finally got real transit projects in the long range plan. Do many of you realize this is a first? it takes real people who have a vision working within JTA with the TPO and thier consultants to make sure this happens. At least it's something. Now we have to be diligent to make sure things like streetcars anc commuter rail move forward. This will only happen when the TPO, JTA Board and City Council hear from us live at their meetings.

This is very true.  I think people need to be reminded that the TPO Board, which ultimately approves the Long Range Plan Updates, is made up of many elected officials and leaders.  As fsujax points out, up until this LRTP update transit wasn't even included (which is pretty sad).  I think it is safe to say that in the past, transit options were not even on the radar of many of our elected officials.  With this update it appears that these leaders are starting to see and understand the benefits of offering transportation and mobility options.  Hopefully this is illustrative of a new way of thinking among the leadership in Jax and we can move forward with these projects.

[wakeup]

This is not the first time there have been transit projects in the LRTP.  This is, however, we have seen a significant shift in investment from highways to transit.  This changes is due in large part to public support for transit evoked in numerous public meetings throughout the region.  It is also supported by TPO policies discouraging widening of arterials beyond 3 lanes in each direction, promoting the use of technology to improve the efficiency of the road system we have on the ground today, promoting alternative fuels and vehicles and other measures to reduce transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions.  Nevertheless, we are a long way from the day when our long range plans will not include road improvements.  That said, this LRTP include projects programmed by the Florida Department of Transportation as part of the Strategic Intermodal System.   These funding decisions are made in Tallahassee and the TPO, as well as the 25 other metropolitan planning organizations have no choice but to drop these projects into their plans.  These account for 75% of the highway funds.  The TPO programs only 25% of the remaining "other arterial funds."  Other "regionally significant" projects like the First Coast Outer Beltway" must also be included because of the air quality impact they will have on our region.

LRTPs are not cast in stone.  They are revisited every 5 years.  If conditions change, if a funding source is no longer available, if new funding sources are identified, if population declines or grows, and/or if federal regulations change, these changes can be taken into consideration.

Instead of worrying if this is the right plan for 20 or 25 years from now, or complaining about the outcome, get involved in the decision making. 

This is a fiscally contrained plan, many projects went unfunded.   It is a plan based in reality.  There isn't a lot of funding available, we are between Transportation authorizations.   Also, many seem to think FTA has money to give away, just for the asking.  If they did every city in America would have light-rail.  In a perfect world States wouldn't have giant wholes in their budgets and be underfunding education, transportation, Medicaid and just about everything else to balance the budget.  And, cities would have ample revenue to subsidize transit, build and maintain roads, support education...   The state and local contribution of funding for this LRTP is significantly lower than it has been in the past.  Federal, state and local fuel tax revenue has declined as people drive less.  Fuel tax funds the federal and state trust fund.

Look for the positive!

[north miami]

Get involved in the decision making?

Well,it is a bit late for that-indeed much cast in stone,to the tune of billions.

But is perfectly now the right time to encourage involvement and lodge first posts in MJ.

I have been a student of,and involved in "Beltway" issues since 1979- involvement including Vice Chair of Statewide planning/conservation organization that eventually created Northeast Florida office- also too late in some regards,due to mushrooming proposals and manipulated public hearings,predetermined outcome.
(The Genesis involvement for it's client during the first Prosser Hallock Lake Asbury sector plan probably worthy of formal investigation).
I predicted some time ago that only by getting to this point would the certain faces be revealed.
It's going to be fascinating.

[north miami]

The chants; 'Get involved','be positive' ring hollow.

There are many provocative aspects to the long narrarative of beltway placement and promotion.Revealing,provocative events never reported to the public.

Stephen Dare,meet with me some time- I will share with you items I shared with the Florida Times Union/David Baierlein in two lengthy interview meetings-David even trailed me to the Water Management District permitting office- yet none of the insights- although provocative,certainly prophetic- were ever shared with the readers.

How many know of John Delaney's hand in key Brannon/Chaffee permit events??

The US ArmyCorp of Engineers/St.Johns River Water Management District B/C permit file is one of the most sought after under FOI/Freedom Of Information act.

The subject is too vast to even attempt to address in this format- I should not even attempt to comment.

Indeed, this latest round of news has elevated the Beltway to heights never before known-the 'public' can storm all they want now but "too late".Even the area's environmental community has been clue-less to the long narrative-and yes that includes the RiverKeeper.(FWF an exception) This is just one of many faces that will emerge over time.

[north miami]

Yes Stephen- the possibilities have ocurred to me.

All the news that wasn't...........

[Ocklawaha]

For the confused, These photos are ALL TROLLEYS. The first two show where the term comes from, the smallish trolley wheel that rolls along a SINGLE wire, or pair of wires in the event of rubber tires or RARE railways with double wires.



TROLLEY, from the root TROLLING, as for fish. The wheel on the end of the pole trolls or trolleys behind the vehicle.


From a catalog, a trolley pole and trolley wheel.


Early trolley bus


Early trolley bus and trolley cars (Streetcars = aka: LIGHT RAIL VEHICLES or LRV's). Mr Clem saying we won't build Light Rail but will build "Trolleys" is like saying General Motors doesn't build cars, they build automobiles.


A modern Trolley Bus in New Zeland, as in the old days, A TRUE TROLLEY, but properly called a "Trolley BUS."


A modern Trolley Car in Toronto Canada, also A TRUE TROLLEY, but properly called a "Trolley Car" or "Streetcar".


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THIS THING...



This JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY, a STREETCAR, a TROLLEY BUS, or even a very good BUS! In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.

Anyone want to join me in having these photos pasted inside the JTA HQ? Would it do any good? Hell everyone in Jacksonville knows we don't need Light Rail or Streetcars... "We already have Trolleys..."

Where's my REBEL YELL? OH GOD! RETCH!

OCKLAWAHA

[cline]

This JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY, a STREETCAR, a TROLLEY BUS, or even a very good BUS!   In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.

The LRTP project refers to an actual streetcar project not the PCT or an extension of the PCT.

[Ocklawaha]

Does anyone know if the streetcar is a serious proposal? In other words, is there a snowball's chance in hell that the city would attempt to fund $105 million dollars for a system that roughly parallels the skyway for about 40% of its route?

Based on my very cursory calculations of the distance to Springfield and the Stadium (and presuming the streetcar is double-tracked) they are proposing a system at about $11-$14 million per lane-mile. This seems extremely aggressive, and is actually cheaper than some of the lines that Portland built in 1990's dollars.

So is the proposal single-tracked? Is it a serious proposal? Who is behind it besides the TPO and that one private developer on Bay St? Any planners or transit experts who have the inside scoop?

I would be excited beyond belief if something like this actually happens. But when I read "$105 million" and "local funding" I have to roll my eyes at the suggested timetable of a couple years.

Joe, it's a REAL PLAN. The Local Part is why we can do it for this amount of $$. Really, we could do it for perhaps half of this if we followed some of the museum, restoration, or other "heritage streetcar", practices. Memphis has built several lines in the $2-3 Million dollars a mile price range and recent 2008 talks with contractors have produced estimates of no more then $4-5 million a mile for STATE-OF-THE-ART single track streetcar line + catenery. If we go off in the direction of modern streetcar then the vehicle cost climbs rapidly, if we shift to heavier construction to accommodate that light rail that we're not going to build, then again the costs climb. Using the KISS Method, (Keep it simple stupid = KISS) there is no reason for us to be breaking the bank on this project, and not still score a major new component to our lives.

Keep in mind that streetcars usually are priced on an "out the door" type quote, ie: they include the catenery, cars, shop, stations, etc...  BRT and other systems are priced as road, rolling stock and shops, per component of the system.

Another economy is going with the tried and true trolley pole on the vehicles, and ordering them all as DOUBLE ENDED. This eliminates the need for turning loops at the ends of the lines, and keeps the overhead very simple. It is also a TRUE-TO-PROTOTYPE practice dating from our own Jacksonville Traction Company of 1912-36.

OCKLAWAHA