The impact of zoning in Jacksonville

[stephendare]

But this site is about creating urban density and encouraging development and planning, not listening to a couple of misguided people state and restate their suburban HOA theories and complaints.

Bigger picture here, Matt.

We arent a site that encourages the private community/suburban mindset.

Im all for a couple of representatives from corporate land being put into the mix.  A chilis and a Panera surrounded by thirty small restaurants and 20 shops of a local variety would be a great mix for the neighborhood you know?

Springfield was originally designed as a neighborhood that supported what we would call 'mixed use'.

It was built before there was anything called 'zoning', and the great houses supported the offices of many magnates who conducted business from the front door of their estates.

Similarly, people lived in mom and pops all up and down main street, and there wasnt really a legal distinction between the commercial strip and the residential strip, it was simple one of convenience, access and of course the old sense of Class.

Its silly to talk about the 'problem' of living next to a commercial enterprise, IMHO.

Anyone have any idea when the first 'zoning' laws came into existence?

[Dog Walker]

Stephen,  ancient Rome had crude zoning laws.  Certain activities were not allowed within the old walls, but had to take place "sub urbis", or outside the city from which we get our word suburban.

Tanning of hides (stinky!) and burials and cremations had to take place outside the city.

Inside the city, they had big apartment blocks called "insulae" (islands) that had shops, wineshops and restaurants on the ground floor.  Many of the grandest houses were built as hollow squares with all of the rooms facing into a courtyard.  On the street side there were shops built into the wall of the house, facing out onto the street.  Now there is mixed use!

Certain other areas of the city were set aside for temples and government buildings and no other uses were permitted.  Sounds a bit like our downtown, doesn't it.

[Johnny]

Comparing Rome to Jacksonville... lol

[Dog Walker]

Houston is an armpit of a city because of it's lack of zoning.  I don't think zoning is bad in itself, but it has been very badly done in most American cities and has contributed heavily to our dependence on the automobile.

No one should be allowed to plan or vote on zoning without reading and understanding Jacob's book, "The Life and Death of Great American Cities".

[cline]

He refers quite often to the city of Houston Texas, which literally has no zoning laws at all as the basis of much of his discussion.

Houston is a great example of sprawl caused by lack of zoning.

[cline]

In Jacksonville's case I would say the building of I-95, the Arlington Expressway and JTB contributed greatly.

[tufsu1]

The first zoning laws were set up in the 20's....often to prevent non-compatible land uses from locating near each other and/or to clean up cities...a few notes:

1. The Euclid v. Ambler case (outside of Cleveland) was a landmark decsion
2. New York City set up zoning laws to clean up tenement houses

[zoo]

and what caused jacksonvilles or los angeles to sprawl?

I wonder, too, about the density comparison. Even though they are both sprawled cities, seems a reasonable conclusion that LA is much denser. Imagine if you took 6.67 x the sprawled land area that contains the Jacksonville MSA's approx 1.2M people (b/c LA MSA contains approx 8M people) -- wonder how much bigger the Jacksonville-densed Los Angeles would be.

2. New York City set up zoning laws to clean up tenement houses

Hmmm, why would they need to do that? ;-)

[thelakelander]

We're pretty far from the topic of Panera on Main Street.  So I went ahead and split the zoning discussion into its own thread.

[thelakelander]

and what caused jacksonvilles or los angeles to sprawl?

The same thing that caused New York to sprawl across New Jersey, Chicago into Chicagoland and San Francisco into San Jose.  A lethal combination of highway construction and auto oriented zoning ordinances that complemented them.

[thelakelander]

and what caused jacksonvilles or los angeles to sprawl?

I wonder, too, about the density comparison. Even though they are both sprawled cities, seems a reasonable conclusion that LA is much denser. Imagine if you took 6.67 x the sprawled land area that contains the Jacksonville MSA's approx 1.2M people (b/c LA MSA contains approx 8M people) -- wonder how much bigger the Jacksonville-densed Los Angeles would be.

Probably the same thing that has impacted Miami.  Both of these regions have always had a limited supply of land to work with.  LA is boxed in by mountains and the Pacific Ocean, Miami by the Everglades and the Atlantic Ocean.  Thus land values are higher and its not economically feasible to waste large tracts on super low density sprawl and ruralism.

Also, LA was a dense major city before highways took over the country. LA had 1,970,358 living in its city limits in 1950.  Jax, on the other hand, had 204,275.

[Springfield Girl]

I copied this straight from COJ.net -

The development of Springfield was barely completed when it began to decline in the last 1920's. The Comprehensive Zoning Ordinance passed by the city in 1925 classified the entire Springfield section as "Business A," resulting in the depreciation of residential property values. City Planning Engineer George W. Simons described Springfield's problems in May 1931.

Many former residents, during the past four or five years, have left Springfield to live in other areas where property is restricted. Tenement dwellers have entered Springfield and the property, generally speaking, is depreciating and when this state starts its rate of progress is rapid. Poorly placed business has sprung up at scattered points and with each new business the sphere of effective depreciation widens. There are still in this area many beautiful homes of old families and working people--homes representing a life time of labor and saving, which are constantly faced with the thoughts of adjacent filling stations or stores. Why shouldn't these people be protected? Why shouldn't the beauty and distinctiveness of Hubbard Street, Silver Street, Boulevard, and Perry Street, as well as that of several cross streets, be preserved?
A half century later, these same ills still plague Springfield, having been accentuated by the changing demographics and general urban decay that since the 1950's has caused our nation's inner-city neighborhoods to decline. A local preservation organization, Springfield Preservation and Restoration(SPAR), was founded in 1975 to counteract this trend. In 1979, SPAR successfully led a campaign to down-zone Springfield, which became the first neighborhood in Jacksonville to change most its commercial zoning back to residential. Other organizations, such as the Greater Springfield Business Association and Springfield Neighborhood Housing Services, have greatly contributed to efforts to restore this once proud neighborhood. In 1987, Springfield was listed in the National Register of Historic Places as Jacksonville's second Historic District. With thousands of vintage houses, proximity to Downtown, and recent escalation of property values, Springfield is destined to re-emerge as one of Jacksonville's successful residential neighborhoods.

[fsu813]

creative logic indeed. i'd blame the individual drinker rather than zoning, but that's just me.

[strider]

When I first came to Springfield, I heard that the zoning changes is what caused the decline of Springfield.  The amount of commercial infill, the heavier uses on Main Street and of course, all of the rooming houses.  The fact is, the commercial infill was needed when built because people walked to get their groceries, they wanted to walk for getting to work and even for their entertainment and the heavier uses on Main were here because this is also where the people were.  Even many of the rooming houses were here because they filled a need and back then, they weren’t considered a problem.

After the sixties and seventies, the middle class left the urban core for the suburbs and Springfield declined.  Yes, the businesses changed and evolved as the clientele did and by the eighties, Springfield was pretty wild.  In the nineties, the people who took an interest in Springfield also often grew up in the ‘burbs with that outlook on what a community should be.  The houses were the big draw and so the community network of small businesses were looked on as a liability.  Of course by then, the businesses that were left were much too crude to be considered of value so the changing of the zoning laws to make it harder for businesses to be here made perfect sense to the newcomer’s. 

The interesting thing is that the zoning changes in effect made the area more like the ‘burbs rather than the walk-able urban core it was.  The zoning changes requested and gotten by the community attempted to eliminate the commercial infill along with the less desirable legal uses. Today many residents like Three Layers, the Meeks building and others, but if the zoning was adhered to very strictly, none of these places would be here. 

We also hear about density, yet most seem to agree that density is needed in the urban core.  Springfield should be more multifamily then yet many push for only single family.  I think that is a throwback to the ‘burb mentality.

We need businesses of all types now, we need that infill commercial still and we need a higher and very diverse density of residents to make Springfield even close to what it once was…less of course the old social issues….which will actually make Springfield better than it ever was before.

[sheclown]

What we don't need is a Main Street that looks and feels like a war zone.