Replace Outer Beltway with New Link To Gainesville, I-75, Tampa

[reednavy]

The grating is removable, so larger ships can get upriver from there.  Don't know when the last time it was used though.

The gratign is a little ways east of the deepest part of the river, not near the main rise of the bridge, and is not wide enough.

[Charles Hunter]

Good points ... I am perplexed, without being as familiar with the bridge as you, it made sense when someone told it to me.  Thanks for the info.

[stjr]

It will take some time to get the amount of development that cirrently uses the Buckman to use this new Shands Bridge. By the time this is done, gas prices will probably be outrageous again, and most people will just suck up the 50 cents or so to travel the only crossing for over 30 miles between Palatka and the Buckman.

If the local traffic on the bridge is exempt from tolls, the price of gas won't make a difference.  What I was saying is people will jam the local roads to get to the immediate entry points on either side of the bridge to obtain the toll free passage the State is promising.  Travelers will be working to avoid the tolls on the NON-bridge portions of the Outer Beltway by taking these local roads.  And, I can bet you that it won't be a 50 cent toll for the non-bridge portions of the Outer Beltway.  Probably, it will be several DOLLARS!

As to the entire Outer Beltway, if we have outrageous gas prices people will (a) make far less trips and (b) attempt to move closer in to the city to avoid driving 30 or 40 miles each way to work from the OUTER LIMITS, oops, OUTER BELTWAY.  The corresponding reduction in revenues will financially doom the operator who didn't count on such high gas prices interfering with his traffic projections.  It would be poetic justice.   

[vicupstate]

There are two public/private toll roads in SC.  One is the Cross Island Connector in the affluent beach community of Hilton Head Island.  The second is in Greenville, where I live, and is called the Southern Connector. 

The Cross Island connector is significantly older and will save considerable time for the user.  I haven't seen any recent news on it, but the last I saw, it was a very modest success/break-even situation.  Keep in mind that the average HHI resident is probably at LEAST a millionaire.

The Southern Connector is of dubious use, and if truth be told, was built to add interstate frontage in Greenville County, which has had most of it's existing frontage used up. The road is configured in such a way that it saves litttle, if any time (but does provide more frontage than was minimally required). 

When this road was first proposed, I nicknamed it the 'Waste of money connector".  Financially, it has been a huge flop with under-usage from day 1.  Tolls were later raised to add revenue, which had the obvious affect of reducing usage further.  The road has eroded it's reserves (included in the original bond issue) substantially.  Default on the bond is considered a matter of time at this point. The SC legislature has refused to bailout the private investors, which is one of the few 'bright' things that body has ever done, IMO.

http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html

This article looks at these public/private toll roads nation-wide, and it should give HUGE PAUSE to anyone thinking of doing another one. Only 5 of 22 such roads were close to or exceeded their traffic projections.

http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477

Given the recent financial turmoil, I doubt any private interests will want to be involved with this project.  This would have to be a fully public toll road to ever get built.  I also would seriously question the ability of the toll to pay it's expected share of the costs, meaning a greater percentage of public infrastructure dollars required.  Obviously that would mean less money for other projects.

     

An update on the failure of the Southern Connector private toll highway, as well as NC's efforts for public/private toll roads.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/758183.html

[thelakelander]

Great link Vic.  In many ways, the Outer Beltway looks like a carbon copy of the Southern Connector.  Any idea on how much it cost to construct the 16-mile Southern Connector in Greenville?

[tufsu1]

Need to replace the Shands Bridge?  No problem.  Just do that and be done with it. By the way, if they replace it, I think they should go to 8 lanes.  6 lanes is a patch job that will be requiring an expansion in less than 20 years.  See the Buckman Bridge traffic issues before it was finally expanded.  In fact, I think FDOT made a boneheaded move in not making 9A 8 lanes from day one all the way around.  There will be far more traffic on this more traveled and densely populated segment, shortly, than on the western I-295 side which is already 8 lanes.  The final killer will come with the port expansion traffic headed south on it to I-95.  And these people know what they are doing when it comes to planning these things?

actually, the projections out to 2035 show only a need for 4 lanes...and that is all that was proposed as part of the PD&E study....so if they want to do 6 (or more), they'll need to update the study they just finioshed 2 years ago.

As for the contemplated toll...prior to yesterday, the bridge surcharge was supposed to be $1 for cars (more for trucks)....in addition to the tolls for the outer beltway itself

[stjr]

actually, the projections out to 2035 show only a need for 4 lanes...and that is all that was proposed as part of the PD&E study....so if they want to do 6 (or more), they'll need to update the study they just finioshed 2 years ago.

If, from what is being bandied about, the bridge itself will be the most traveled segment of the Outer Beltway and the studies can only determine enough traffic during its first 20 years or so to justify a 4 lane bridge, it certainly doesn't bode well for the traffic counts on the rest of the beltway.  Governor Crist, remind me again, why are we building this thing?  Clearly, not for traffic demand.  Can you spell "U S  S E N A T E"!?

[tufsu1]

well to be fair, it won't likely get built if a private company doesn't do it...and they will likely scrutinize the potential volumes and toll revenues very closely

[tufsu1]

1.5 mile roadway in Tampa for $600+ million....seems like a good deal to me!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/15/dot-i-4-connector-will-generate-14000-jobs/news-metro/

[reednavy]

1.5 mile roadway in Tampa for $600+ million....seems like a good deal to me!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/15/dot-i-4-connector-will-generate-14000-jobs/news-metro/

Whoa, not no, but hell no, send this back to the drawing board.

[stjr]

Thanks, Lake, for making this map available (from
http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Pink_11x17_rev.pdf). 

I think this map shows several things.

First, how contorted the Outer Beltway really is. It isn't a direct route for those desiring to make the entire loop from I-10 to I-95.  In fact, it takes one miles out of the way, going way south and then back north.  And, at its proposed 4 lanes it won't have very much capacity at any choke points to make it quicker than I-295 at 6 lanes. Add, that it will be toll road, and you can bet out-of-towners won't have much interest in it.  Thus, the promise of relieving I-295 appears to be just that - a promise.  (Hmmm...that's the term the Times Union just attributed in its recent editorial on 9B.  I see a pattern here...)

Secondly, you can see how many currently undeveloped wetlands, forest, farms, and green belted areas the Beltway will be slicing through.  Not to mention existing residential areas.  It will wipe out much of the rural areas remaining in Clay and a goodly slice of St. Johns.  By the way, don't forget the noise pollution.  Stand within about one mile of I-295 to hear the traffic roar.  I'm sure that will be attractive to area Clay and St. Johns residents over its 46 miles (or 92 square miles at 46 miles x 1 mile x 2 sides).

Third, the main beneficiaries, once again, appear to be proposed/planned/started DRI mega-developments hoping to bring in tens of thousands of new residents and all their added traffic and congestion, not to mention overcrowding of schools and overtaxing of police and fire.  And, how will all this development further impact our fresh water supplies, the aquifer, and the river?  It would be interesting to overlay the mega-developments on the map and see how the Beltway will service them.

Most importantly, especially for residents of St. Johns and Clay, is the wandering spin off roads, shown as yellow dashes, planned to feed into the Outer Beltway.  These roads will carve up their respective counties with more sprawl and traffic.  For the most part, I see lot's of roof tops and strip shopping, not the major job centers these counties are looking for to bring more tax revenue (which will be needed to subsidize all that urban sprawl!).

Looking at the interchanges, St. Johns will only have two local access ones (the third is I-95, a non-local route). The one closest to the river crossing, replacing the Shands Bridge, will now require entry to the bridge from a further eastward access point than that currently existing at SR 13.  In other words, those driving SR13 will now have to travel east, enter the Beltway, and backtrack west to the bridge.  The second interchange at proposed SR2209 appears to represent the only possible access point for industrial/commercial development but, if that is indeed the case, it will not be well connected with local/back roads to other parts of St. Johns county forcing workers to jam SR2209 or the Beltway.

On the Clay side, again, the Shands bridge access will be more remote for existing "downtown" GCS residents and those continuing from SR 16.  In fact, it will route most bridge users around GCS rather than through it.  Industrial/commercial development seems most likely at this exit or at the next mystery (unmarked by any cross road) exit in the middle of someone's currently rural land (wonder who owns this future "goldmine" being served with a private interstate exit?).  The other exits in Clay appear to be closer to existing residential but perhaps could support some commercial development. (Does anyone know if Clay has a master land use plan for these interchanges?).

Also, in Clay, it shows a future College Drive extension.  But, it is not shown connected across Black Creek to the existing section.  What are the plans for a connection through this environmentally sensitive area?  Why aren't they shown on the map?  Or, is no actual connection planned despite the name given the new road?

Another important issue will be whether the interchanges built will be full interchanges or diamonds (half interchanges with the traffic jamming traffic lights)?  If the latter, expect to see lots of "little" I-95/JTB, I-95/SR210, I-95/St. Augustine Road, Blanding/I-295, etc. type traffic patterns blossoming in Clay and St. Johns counties.

Finally, do Clay and St. Johns have any plans to increase their parks and preserved lands in these areas before they are completely built over?  All this development needs to be served by a number of mega-green (over 100 acre) spaces but I never hear conversations on this topic to complement the accommodation of urban sprawl.  If the Outer Beltway comes to fruition, these potential lands may become unaffordable.  As such, they should be acquired prior to any further advancement of the Outer Beltway (heaven forbid!).

In the end, I don't see anything improving for current, or possible future, residents.  Subject to a useful mass transit implementation, I fully expect 50 years from now our successors will be hearing the same broken record, but at a much louder volume, we hear today about inadequate roads, too much traffic, and overwhelmed infrastructure and resources. 

[CS Foltz]

stjr...........I agree with your post..........once more no vision and no planning! This seems to be a trait that is prevelant and I don't understand it unless the developers have more control on roads than is known?

[tufsu1]

As stated here many times, I am no fan of the Outer Beltway....but CS, please explain to me how there is no vision or planning here.

Whether we like the outcome or not, there has been over a decade of planning and studies (and more than 20 years for the part north of Blanding)....and I'm sure that the Clay folks will tell you they have a vision for the area.

Now a few notes to stjr's post:

Even though the official website still notes that this will be a 4-lane road, I understand that a good portion of the road may actually be designed (or even constructed) as 6 lanes....this includes the Shand bridge, which is likely to be the only potential "choke point".

As for noise, new or widened roads require significant noise analysis...I am sure that thi will mean noise walls along portions of the road, unless those in the affected areas don't want them.

[thelakelander]

Yes, the Clay folks have a vision with the Outer Beltway.  Its just not a sustainable one, which they may not care that much about.

[Jason]

So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B?  That makes 9B even more useless!