Replace Outer Beltway with New Link To Gainesville, I-75, Tampa

[tufsu1]

heights...why do you think we need another beltwaqy...is I-295 not good enough?

[vicupstate]

There are two public/private toll roads in SC.  One is the Cross Island Connector in the affluent beach community of Hilton Head Island.  The second is in Greenville, where I live, and is called the Southern Connector. 

The Cross Island connector is significantly older and will save considerable time for the user.  I haven't seen any recent news on it, but the last I saw, it was a very modest success/break-even situation.  Keep in mind that the average HHI resident is probably at LEAST a millionaire.

The Southern Connector is of dubious use, and if truth be told, was built to add interstate frontage in Greenville County, which has had most of it's existing frontage used up. The road is configured in such a way that it saves litttle, if any time (but does provide more frontage than was minimally required). 

When this road was first proposed, I nicknamed it the 'Waste of money connector".  Financially, it has been a huge flop with under-usage from day 1.  Tolls were later raised to add revenue, which had the obvious affect of reducing usage further.  The road has eroded it's reserves (included in the original bond issue) substantially.  Default on the bond is considered a matter of time at this point. The SC legislature has refused to bailout the private investors, which is one of the few 'bright' things that body has ever done, IMO.

http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html

This article looks at these public/private toll roads nation-wide, and it should give HUGE PAUSE to anyone thinking of doing another one. Only 5 of 22 such roads were close to or exceeded their traffic projections.

http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477

Given the recent financial turmoil, I doubt any private interests will want to be involved with this project.  This would have to be a fully public toll road to ever get built.  I also would seriously question the ability of the toll to pay it's expected share of the costs, meaning a greater percentage of public infrastructure dollars required.  Obviously that would mean less money for other projects.

     

[tufsu1]

I wonder how many existing bridges we could repair with the money it will take to build 9B?  I believe the money is there.  The issue may be on what it's being spent on.

How about $470 million worth!  That would possibly pay also for raising the Dames Point Bridge to 200 feet or higher so we could get cruise and mega-cargo ships into the all the existing port areas!

and we're about to spend over $500 million on an interchange in Miami....that will probably be congested agin in less than 10 years!

http://www.miamiherald.com/486/story/1064339-p2.html

[Charles Hunter]

From what I've heard (a) there are several private (and foreign) investors interested in the Outer Beltway, and (b) if it isn't built privately, it won't be built at all - including completing the 4-lanes for Branan Field-Chaffee section beyond what is currently under construction.  I am sure these investors will run the numbers, again, before submitting bids (or whatever it is) this year or next (whenever it is).

edited to fix unintended bolding

[tufsu1]

the portion of the roadway under construction is funded...but portions will be only a 4-lane arterial...and a small portion in Jax. will be built as a 2-lane expwy first (just like the Polk Pkwy) with the additional 2 lanes being built in about 5 years (or as part of the public-private-partnership).

[Just Joe]

While the idea of an interstate type road from Jax to Gville is good, why couldnt the road connect to the Sun Coast Pkwy, travel through Ocala, and then make a Beeline for Jax? To me this would be more sensible as Ocala is closer to the Turnpike as well. So residents could come from the entire west coast, and areas of interior Florida, and hop on the Sun Coast Pkwy and head through Ocala (which needs something like this) and head towards Jax with little or no stopping except maybe service plazas along the route with a stop in Palatka and maybe a few other cities. Just an idea.

[stjr]

Be ware strangers bearing gifts!  This "bribe" of no local bridge only tolls to get public approval of the Outer Beltway stinks.  More wasted $$$ promoting urban sprawl.  Clay and St. Johns residents will rue the day they let this thing get built.  It will destroy their quality of life.

If people want to live near their jobs, let them move closer to their employers, not spread the employers all over the place.  It's that easy.  People want to live in the country but have their jobs next door.  That's a non sequitur. 

Another Governor Charlie Crist cave in to developers and urban sprawl.  If we need a new bridge to replace Shands, just build that. 

Local drivers won’t pay toll over Shands Bridge after all
Many residents don't think the bridge needs to be replaced and don't see a need for the Beltway

By Larry Hannan Story updated at 7:19 AM on Thursday, Jun. 4, 2009

Motorists living near the Shands Bridge or who travel it locally will not pay a toll to get across the St. Johns River after all when the First Coast Outer Beltway is built.

The two-lane, 40-foot-high Shands Bridge will be torn down and replaced by a new six-lane, 65-foot-high bridge that will be part of the 46.5-mile toll road that will connect Interstate 10 in Duval County with Interstate 95 in St. Johns County. The new bridge will be just south of the existing Shands Bridge.

Residents along the planned roadway have complained about losing the Shands Bridge and having to pay a toll to cross its replacement.

“The Shands Bridge is a perfectly good bridge,” said Green Cove Springs resident Eugene Kirker. “Green Cove Springs residents will not benefit from this.”

Larry Parks, director of planning for the Florida Department of Transportation, said those complaints have been heard, and the department told The Times-Union on Wednesday that local residents will not be assessed a toll provided they get on the beltway right before the bridge and get off at the first exit after.

The exit east of the bridge will be on Country Road 16A. The westbound exit will be on U.S. 17.

Cars will still need to have a transponder that will electronically note where they got on and off the beltway. In lieu of pay toll booths, the transponder is designed to electronically debit motorists.

Green Cove Springs resident Curt Kinder  said it will be easier to accept the Outer Beltway with this change.
“Tolls could have ended up costing up to $1,000 a year, so this is good news,” Kinder said, although he still doubts the Outer Beltway will bring 35,000 new jobs to the area, as its supporters claim.

Clay County resident Mackey Everett  didn’t see the point of building the beltway and wasn’t mollified when told he would not be charged to go over the bridge.

“No one around here wants the beltway,” Everett said. “And I don’t understand why we can’t keep the old Shands Bridge.”

Parks said the existing span can’t handle the projected 30,000 or so cars that will use the beltway every day. About 12,500 cars a day go over the current bridge.

FDOT spokeswoman Gina Busscher said portions of the old bridge could remain standing to operate as a fishing pier.

It is not yet clear when construction on the beltway will begin. The process of hiring a private partner that will build and maintain the roadway has begun, but that will take at least a year.

The old bridge will remain open until the new one is built.

From: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-03/story/local_drivers_won’t_pay_toll_over_shands_bridge_after_all

[reednavy]

Even with current traffic counts, that bridge is dangerous. The residents that say it is fine as is are idiots. No way to pull over and if an accident occurs, well, you're screwed.

I'm also not the biggest fan of one part being metal grating, wth happened?

[jandar]

Even with current traffic counts, that bridge is dangerous. The residents that say it is fine as is are idiots. No way to pull over and if an accident occurs, well, you're screwed.

I'm also not the biggest fan of one part being metal grating, wth happened?

I cringe every time I use that bridge with all the dump trucks on it now. It can be a death trap in most conditions, a nightmare in bad weather.

[tufsu1]

this is very interesting...the biggest potential profit for a private toll road builder is on the bridge...an now they are taking that opportunity away....unless of course FDOT partially funds the bridge construction since they would have had to replace the existing bridge soon anyway.

[Charles Hunter]

The grating is removable, so larger ships can get upriver from there.  Don't know when the last time it was used though.

The through ("Bypass") traffic will still pay tolls on the bridge (and the whole route).  The only free trips will be if you get on or off at both US 17 and SR 16 (just past SR 13).  If you go beyond those points, you will pay a toll as if you had crossed the bridge.

[tufsu1]

sure...but those will be two heavily used interchanges...I'm betting that half of the fcuture bridge traffic could fall into this category.

[stjr]

Has anyone thought about how traffic will actually flow if this Beltway is built?  Are there any traffic studies yet done to justify it or is it just a pie-in-the-sky pork barrel fantasy project?

Certainly, no one headed from I-10 eastbound to Jax, its port, or to I-95 north will use it.  If you are coming on an interstate trip eastbound from beyond Lake City on I-10 and want to go to the most populous parts of south Florida, you would very likely chose I-75 and the Florida Turnpike.  If you are coming north from south Florida and wish to travel I10 westbound, you would take the same route in reverse.

So where is the big generator of traffic between I-10 and I-95 south traffic?  Daytona Beach, maybe Melbourne.  For that, we need this grand project?

And, with the expansion of the port, and subsequent growth of the immediate Jax area as a distribution hub, we may have even less traffic passing down I-10 intoINTO Florida.  Rather, it will radiate OUT from Jax proper.

So, please describe the typical traveler over the Outer Beltway other than local traffic generated by newly created urban sprawl?  And, how many of these new local residents will either (a) move to an area where they have to pay a toll every time they want to travel on this thing or (b) make every effort to avoid the tolls by jamming the local non-toll roads forcing the counties and State to pay up to expand those roads?

I remember the great lengths Jax residents and truckers went through to avoid paying the 25 cent Fuller Warren (I-95) and Trout River (I-95) bridge tolls when we had them.  People would exit I-95 and take Main Street or the Acosta Bridge through Downtown.  Imagine what people will do to avoid even more expensive (in today's dollars) tolls on the Outer Beltway?  Especially, when for many years to come they won't be motivated by NY City-style traffic issues to pay the tolls.

Need to replace the Shands Bridge?  No problem.  Just do that and be done with it. By the way, if they replace it, I think they should go to 8 lanes.  6 lanes is a patch job that will be requiring an expansion in less than 20 years.  See the Buckman Bridge traffic issues before it was finally expanded.  In fact, I think FDOT made a boneheaded move in not making 9A 8 lanes from day one all the way around.  There will be far more traffic on this more traveled and densely populated segment, shortly, than on the western I-295 side which is already 8 lanes.  The final killer will come with the port expansion traffic headed south on it to I-95.  And these people know what they are doing when it comes to planning these things?

[Charles Hunter]

With it being totally paid for by the private contractor, who only gets paid back by toll revenues, I would bet any potential bidders will look at traffic projections - including the freebie provision - very closely, before submitting bids.  If the numbers don't add up, they won't bid.  If there aren't bids, there won't be a beltway.  No way the state can afford this nearly 2 Billion Dollar project.

[reednavy]

It will take some time to get the amount of development that cirrently uses the Buckman to use this new Shands Bridge. By the time this is done, gas prices will probably be outrageous again, and most people will just suck up the 50 cents or so to travel the only crossing for over 30 miles between Palatka and the Buckman.