Replace Outer Beltway with New Link To Gainesville, I-75, Tampa

[cline]

So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B?  That makes 9B even more useless!

Since there would be an interchange at the proposed CR2209, you would be able to connect to the 9B extension north of CR210.  This assumes, of course, that the 9B extension is actually built. 

[Ocklawaha]

Shands Bridge, I agree it needs to be rebuilt too narrow, no emergency lanes, but most of all, not nearly high enough. The height issue has killed transportation on the upper (South) St. Johns River, it has also killed off shipyard contracts that would have amounted to hundreds of jobs in Putnam County.


Part of the original span about 1/8 mile north of the current bridge on the west side.

For those who think we should keep it as it is, a sort of monument to 1950 technology, If you REALLY want nostalgia, you should have crossed the original. I don't remember what we called it, but it was a real white knuckle ride.   

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B?  That makes 9B even more useless!

Since there would be an interchange at the proposed CR2209, you would be able to connect to the 9B extension north of CR210.  This assumes, of course, that the 9B extension is actually built. 

or just continue east to I-95 and then head north to connect with SR 9B....apparently, environmental approvals of the Outer Beltway came with the requirement for 8-laning of I-95 in northern St. Johns County.

[cline]

or just continue east to I-95 and then head north to connect with SR 9B....apparently, environmental approvals of the Outer Beltway came with the requirement for 8-laning of I-95 in northern St. Johns County.

Yes, that would be another option and would probably be a quicker route as well.

[stjr]

As stated here many times, I am no fan of the Outer Beltway....but CS, please explain to me how there is no vision or planning here.

Whether we like the outcome or not, there has been over a decade of planning and studies (and more than 20 years for the part north of Blanding)....and I'm sure that the Clay folks will tell you they have a vision for the area.  

Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal?  Urban sprawl?  Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas?  Further straining fresh water supplies?  It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of?  And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?

Were planners given the "option" to do nothing or to offer alternate ideas on how to spend an estimated $2 billion on the needs of North Florida, other than for an 8-interchange highway that loop-the-loops its way around?  To invest the money in a full blown regional mass transit system, dredge our port ($600 million, a mere slice of this), improve existing roads, put land aside for preservation so these roads wouldn't be needed to fuel urban sprawl, hire more public safety employees, improve our education system, etc.?  I didn't think so.

What kind of planning process do we have when the planners are told they only have one option to deliver?

Even though the official website still notes that this will be a 4-lane road, I understand that a good portion of the road may actually be designed (or even constructed) as 6 lanes....this includes the Shand bridge, which is likely to be the only potential "choke point".

Tufsu, this comment, along with the missing explanation for the future of College Drive, the mystery exit, and the unanswered plan for connecting the Outer Beltway with a possible 9B extension indicates to me that the Outer Beltway is not fully planned, and, as CS alleges, is being designed "as we go".  Feeding into this thinking would be any lack of clarity into whether interchanges are traffic light diamonds or full interchanges and any lack of master land use plans by Clay and St. Johns.

As for noise, new or widened roads require significant noise analysis...I am sure that thi will mean noise walls along portions of the road, unless those in the affected areas don't want them.

Tufsu, I thought that noise barriers (which, by the way, are ugly as sin) were only installed by FDOT in areas where development along the road preceded the PLANNING of the road way.  Was this the policy?  Has it changed?  Even with noise barriers, I "hear" ( ) they are not fully effective in reducing noise, particularly further from the road.

[cline]

the unanswered plan for connecting the Outer Beltway with a possible 9B extension

Actually, the Outer Beltway will be connected to the 9B extension via two routes, I-95 and CR2209.  It is not an unanswered plan, there are plans for it.

[tufsu1]

Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal?  Urban sprawl?  Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas?  Further straining fresh water supplies?  It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of?  And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?

Tufsu, I thought that noise barriers (which, by the way, are ugly as sin) were only installed by FDOT in areas where development along the road preceded the PLANNING of the road way.  Was this the policy?  Has it changed?  Even with noise barriers, I "hear" ( ) they are not fully effective in reducing noise, particularly further from the road.

I am sure the main goal for Clay County is economic development....they probably feel that having an expressway in their community will help attract potential employers.

As for noise walls, you are incorrect....generally noise walls exist where the volume of the roadway exceeds the Federal standards....what usually happens is that they get installed when a road is widened, thereby bringing more traffic closer to the adjacent development.

Finally, your issue with the $2 Billion is a good point....except that the road won't be funded directly with public taxpayer dollars....so the question is, would a private equity company be interested in building a mass transit system or dredging the river and recouping their investment through user fees?

Or perhaps you'd prefer we put some of that money towards extensions of the Skyway 

[stjr]

Actually, the Outer Beltway will be connected to the 9B extension via two routes, I-95 and CR2209.  It is not an unanswered plan, there are plans for it.

Thanks, Cline, but my impression was that the connection would be an interstate level road.  Is 2209 a local or interstate road?  Currently, it appears as a local road.  Also, in the drawing on FDOT's official site, shown in a previous post, 2209 connects far enough down on Race Track road from 9B as to not be a direct connection in my book.  If this is wrong, FDOT needs to show us their real intentions.

Any traffic generated by the Outer Beltway via I-95 to 9B would seem to defeat a stated purpose of 9B and the Outer Beltway relieving I95 of traffic.  Tens of thousands of new residents in middle Clay and St. Johns County will now want to transit north up an already overburdened I95 into South Jax.  This just fuels my thoughts that building these roads actually makes the traffic worse, not better, even on existing roads, and that we are being sold an illusion of traffic improvements. An urban sprawl treadmill.

[Jason]

2209 is to be a 4-6 lane raised median roadway.

[cline]

my impression was that the connection would be an interstate level road.  Is 2209 a local or interstate road?  Currently, it appears as a local road.  Also, in the drawing on FDOT's official site, shown in a previous post, 2209 connects far enough down on Race Track road from 9B as to not be a direct connection in my book.  If this is wrong, FDOT needs to show us their real intentions.

It appears as though the map on the previous page only shows the 9B extension to Race Track-this is not the complete extension.  From what I have seen, the 9B extension will extend south of Race Track Road and terminate at CR2209.  You are correct though, CR2209 is not functionally classified as an interstate.  However, if one wanted to go from the Outer Beltway to 9B via only interstate roadways, you would take the Outer Beltway to its end at I-95 head north on I-95 and then get on 9B at the interchange of I-95 and 9B.

[stjr]

As for noise walls, you are incorrect....generally noise walls exist where the volume of the roadway exceeds the Federal standards....what usually happens is that they get installed when a road is widened, thereby bringing more traffic closer to the adjacent development.

Tufsu, I recall Mandarin residents asking for noise barriers along I-295 and being told "no".  What does it take to exceed Federal standards - a certain traffic level? too many decibels? The noise from I-295 can be easily heard a mile away in Mandarin and further when the air is cold and dense.  The Buckman Bridge can be heard even further down the open St. Johns River.

Finally, your issue with the $2 Billion is a good point....except that the road won't be funded directly with public taxpayer dollars....so the question is, would a private equity company be interested in building a mass transit system or dredging the river and recouping their investment through user fees?

Actually, I agree with your point.  If government created a level playing field by not subsidizing any of these activities, fees/revenue would rise to a point where the private sector could/should pay for these projects.

But, as long as mass transit and ports get subsidies from various government entities, we end up with severe economic distortions that prevent these things from happening.  I have no problem with government facilitating large scale community wide projects but question when that same government causes distorted priorities by its subsidies which the community fails to fully perceive the effect of.

Or perhaps you'd prefer we put some of that money towards extensions of the Skyway 

Or, perhaps not!  LOL.

[tufsu1]

Noise walls are installed based on noie volumes (decibels)...I'm sure the folks in Mandarin will get the walls when FDOT adds auxiliary lanes (8-laning) to I-295 between SR 13 and I-95....that's supposed to happen in about 5 years.

[Ocklawaha]

Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal?  Urban sprawl?  Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas?  Further straining fresh water supplies?  It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of?  And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?

I am sure the main goal for Clay County is economic development....they probably feel that having an expressway in their community will help attract potential development.

If this is really what Clay County wants, then taking any of these alternatives over, around, through, or behind the former NAS LEE FIELD is really cutting off their nose to spite their face! Unlike most of the abandoned area airports, Branon Field, Fleming Island, Lake Butler, Switzerland, Paxon etc... Lee Field was built to stay. It has extremely heavy CONCRETE and asphalt runways, taxi ways and tarmac areas. Some new and large aircraft hangers have gone up on the south side so the old airport has life. Living off the end of the East West runway in St. Johns County, I can tell you either the Navy still uses it for TAG flying, or there is a all female nudist colony on the St. Johns side, because those P-3's are mighty low.

The runways were WWII vintage and as I recall 5-6,000 feet, but the two main runways NE-SW, and N-S, could easily be stretched to 10 or 15,000 feet. (HINT: USN? MASTER JET BASE ANYONE?). Outside of the aircraft business and a rail car brake business, there is really nothing else that has ever taken root once the Navy pulled the plug.

Clay has moved with typical Florida Neanderthal blindness, when they took over the old Navy Mothball Fleet Base, across (North) from Lee Field. A Navy railroad served the NAS Lee Field, and about half way from US 17 to to the hanger area there is a large wye and junction. The old line crossed SR16 and fanned out along the docks where 200 ships once rode at dockside. Clay wanted to develop a "PORT" so the first thing they did was rip out all of the railroad, and put up a cute sign that is bound to attract steamship lines and barge companies from around the world.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock ......I agree! This is only one reason that I say there is no plan and vision in Duval or St Johns. You have some sort of splinter system being considered and that boils down too a little here......a little there and the next thing you  know we have concrete everywhere....along with the noise pollution (but those noise abatement bulkheads will control that right?) the strip malls, gas stations at every interchange and I have to ask why? From my view alot of what we are installing could be put on hold if we just went to a state wide rail system. There just does not IMO be a cohesive plan or vision that controls all of this. This is also why I say the so-called vision is basically made up as we move along! Then I look at new roads in the works, such as 9A and 9B supposedly to relieve congestion on 95 and say "What the Hell"? I see posts regarding the proposed Inner and Outer Beltways and think about just what we are going to be gaining.....more concrete and more development and start thinking about moving to a deserted Island......at least that way I could control just what takes place there....because I sure don't have a say in it here..........no representation for now or future generations!

[thelakelander]

The vision:





The key will be getting Clay to understand economic development can happen in a more sustainable form instead of repeating the mistakes of Blanding and Fleming Island.