Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[tufsu1]

Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

[thelakelander]

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does.  I'm pushing the idea of a plan that can attract and cater to tourist and residents and which is significantly cheaper and easier to establish.

I don't know when the last time you've visited these towns between Orlando and Tampa lately, but they aren't small little burgs anymore.  Lakeland's downtown is more vibrant than Jacksonville's and traffic on South and North Florida Avenue will remind you of Blanding or Atlantic Blvds.  Brandon isn't incorporated, but if it were it's population would rival some of our region's counties.  Plant City may only have around 35,000 residents, but its boundaries touch Lakeland's, which has nearly 100,000 in city limits and a ton more in its suburbs.  The same goes for Winter Haven, Haines City, Kissimmee and a host of unincorporated areas.  These are population centers that add local trips to and help clog I-4, I-75, SR 60 and other highways.  Spending $2.5 billion on a rail system and ignoring them is simply silly.

This is why I suggested a system that allows for local and express train service on the same tracks.  You hit both markets and it can be a ton cheaper by working with Amtrak, as opposed to trying to do something off the wall on our on.  As for the notion of HSR, who cares.  This is a corridor that screams commuter rail, imo.  If it takes 30 minutes longer (end point to end point) to serve a larger population base on a corridor in the center of these cities, so what.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

I don't think so tusfu1, but FIRST, it wasn't I who said that, it was The Transport Politic, and was identified as such. As Lakelander has pointed out the true cost of this system would also have to include some of the right-of-way purchase, planning and construction on I-4. Plus this thing has been "next years news" since Florida Governor Bob Graham had his photo taken in the cab of a bullet train. With so many studies, FDOT, dedicated consultants, etc. it might be well over that mark, until then, I'll go with their figure.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Lakelander, with tilt train technology that 79 mph track could be much faster. Dedicate a portion of the funds to any tight spots where track realignment would be cheap and easy. Run high speed expresses as well as local Surfliner type commuter trains. That train would blow through every downtown from Jacksonville to St. Petersburg.

BTW, Faye, they are NOT planning electric (and may never build it) they are looking at Bombardier's 2002 trial of a GE Jet train. Is actually like a jet engine in that it is in the form of a gas turbine, however it is designed to provide horsepower in lieu of thrust. It's said to fairly quiet but not nice to the environment.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Gas Turbine is notorious for spent gases.........even if in a bypass mode as some aircraft engines are for noise suppression and additional thrust..........but you are aware of that are you not Ok? Don't care what they use, Mouseville can build their own rail system! We need a statewide rail system, just not a stand alone system that caters to 73 mile stretch.......along with a stop programed at Disney......forget Jacksonville!

[FayeforCure]

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does. 

Well, the current plan does not favor tourists:

In general, the high speed rail ridership split between business and recreational/tourist trips is about 50/50.

Per Nazih K. Haddad, P.E.

Manager, Passenger Rail Development

Florida Department of Transportation

[thelakelander]

I lived, worked and designed projects in various Central Florida cities for a combined 21 years.  I'm pretty familiar with the local commuting patterns and this system does not set up well to serve them.  You can't effectively serve a sprawling region with multiple cities (that contribute to I-4's congestion problems) with a line with five stations spaced out over a 90 mile stretch.  Charging $20-$30 for a one-way ticket only creates more skepticism.  There's not much a cut and pasted quote from Nazih Haddad is going to do to change my mind.

[Ocklawaha]

How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.

OCKLAWAHA

[buckethead]

How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.

OCKLAWAHA

And all this time I've been waitng for Mr Toad's Wild Ride to return to the Magic Kingdom.

Turns out I've just been waiting on the wrong ride.

[Ocklawaha]

It disappoints me at MJ to realize that Faye, a very likable, and educated, would-be public servant, can't see this for what it is. That someone with her influence can't think beyond the $2 Billion, and see how this plan could backfire so big as to be High Speed Rails equivalent of The Hindenburg.

Faye, I'm not saying don't support it at all, none of us are, in fact with few exceptions we all support the concept. The entire Northeast Corridor is built on the regular railroad mainlines, ours should be too.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

Lakelander and Ock, I have plenty of street cred on Central Florida myself.

Lived in Kissimmee for 6 years,............Poinciana, which covers Osceola and Polk counties. and is near Haines City.

I agree that we also need a commuter train to stop at all these towns.

I used to drive from Poinciana into Tampa every single day, and often had to drive into Orlando as well. I very much regretted having bought a house there, because of how far everything was from where we lived.
Now I live off SR 13/San Jose Blvd, and can walk and bike to wherever I need to go. That is how development should take place. Dense development that makes public transportation feasible. Go LRT for San Jose!!!!

( and LRT on John Young Parkway from Kissimmee to Orlando too )

The fact remains that we have a terrific HSR plan, that is ready to go. And I am happy Florida will be getting some of its tax payer transportation dollars back that have in the past gone to other states.

[CS Foltz]

Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

[FayeforCure]

Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

Well yeah, let's start from scratch with Jax as the focal point........when our city government has never expressed much interest. That sure make sense. I do however agree that jax is the gateway to Florida and should capitalize on it.

BTW thanks for calling Mica about voting YES on fully funding Amtrak, by signing onto Corrine Brown's Dear Colleague letter.

Let's see what he does.

[CS Foltz]

Not a problem Faye...........lets see if he joins in or excludes himself! If he excludes then there is ammo for you to take a shot at him! I am more concerned about true HSR for Florida and our need for a real people moving system within the state and options to expand outside! It is bad enough that no one in the current Administration can not see beyond their noses but Jacksonville needs intercity LR/trolley system and soon. The aspect of increasing bus's is kind of narrow (thanks JTA) when there are other ways to move people around at a cheaper cost not only to the taxpayers but the environment and air quality! I would like more for my tax dollars and this is a no brainer to me!

[Cmed911]

I am new to this forum and have only lived in Jax area for three years, but I have worked for large corporations that put together conventions for various reasons.  This brings me to my point, the location of the railroad station downtown together with the convention center would be fine if and only if there were very close Hotels and supporting transportation in the downtown area as well as something to do while participants are there. 

Having participated in a couple of committees to put conventions in other cities we looked for conveniences for our members and our guest speakers.  For this reason, unless we are willing to invite a six flags, or put monies into our downtown to spruce it up and give a night life it barely has now (baring the Landing), plus be willing to stop rolling up the sidewalks at 6:00 p.m. and be closed on Sundays (which I actually like as a resident but would not as a convention coordinator), then we need to be willing to create fast corridors to both Mickey's house and Miami combining adult fun (Miami) and family friendly (Mickey's house). 
As a resident, I would prefer for the mess and mayhem to be concentrated downtown than spread all over.  On the other hand I am realistic.  I lived in a city where they could not decide which way to go and every three years it changed directions leaving with without a real committed direction.  If we are saying, as I believe we are (reading above and other publications), that we want Jax to be put back on the map as a location that attracts business, starting with conventions is not a bad way which means we need to tighten our belts and hand on.  The HSR makes more logical sense in the location where it once was, there just needs to be supporting surroundings which are not there now.  The CC and current location of the rails is in the "dead" area, or at least that is what it looks like to a new comer.  If I were to tour the facility for a convention, Jax could dine me and wine me, but bottom line, I would walk on the outside of the convention center and see there is a "scary" looking area with closed and run down buildings, a bridge to an industrial, mostly ghostly area, and "nothing to do". 
Because I appreciate old cities, I would be wondering why there aren't museums about its past, what is the history of the closed and abandoned buildings, and why hasn't it (Jax) taken advantage of its past as a future attraction? But I would also realize that I would be in a position to bring in all the entertainment for the convention attendees, which is not a viable position to be in with this economy.  In short, I may revisit Jax as a future convention location, but I would have to pass for now. 

Therefore, make a commitment to HSR, but ensure there is a commitment to add Hotels and entertainment immediately surrounding the CC if that is where the HSR will be located.

As for the a multi-stop HSR to Orlando/Tampa, scratch that.  Make it one stop, then provide other ground or even other train transportation from the most logical single stop location. 

I completely agree with Foltz on the need for LR/Trolley which could solve the transpo from the CC and train station to other areas in the vicinity as well and resolve at least one of the problems of the currently planned location.