Quote from: KenFSU on October 22, 2008, 07:29:15 PM
Nothing says "Love Thy Neighbor" like pretending person A, as a heterosexual, has this divine, legal right to tell person b, as a homosexual, they don't deserve the same basic human rights as you do. Didn't we get past this nonsense with the civil rights movement, women's suffrage, desegregation, etc?
In a country where one out of every two marriages ends in divorce, us straight folk don't exactly have the authority or clout to tell anyone they are going to tarnish the good name or sanctity of our marriage.
If the church REALLLY wants to turn the over 15 million gay Americans living in this country off from Christ and his message, this is a great way.
I'm sure Jesus would be the first one blocking off that gay man with cancer's hospital room when his partner of 20 years wants to see him one last time before he dies, but can't because he doesn't have the legal rights afforded by marriage.
don't be rediculous.
first of all, the Bible is quite specific that homosexuality is not just a sin, but a 'detestable' sin. is turning on people to a religion by lying to them really going to help?
when you are a christian you must make a conscious effort to try and not sin (even though there is unlimited forgiveness, the LORD knows your heart), and if homosexuality is listed as sin, you should stray away from it. you must reform.
that being said, from a christian standpoint, this is no more of an affront to gays than teaching nonviolence is to murderers.
i didn't see a 'no gay marriage' clause in Deuteronomy but that is because homosexuality was just another sin. 'detestable', but nonetheless another sin. even ancient greeks who were raging homosexuals and pedophiles knew man and man was not part of what marriage is.
marriage, as also in sex, is between a man and woman. their is something perfect about the joining of two to make one.
just look at your anatomy.
so, if GOD did not intend for people act homosexually, why on earth would it be wrong to teach a class that gay marriage is wrong?
do they condemn all gays in the class? i don't know. if they do, that is shameful, they should pray for them instead of judging, but it is completely obvious that homosexuality does not work in christianity.
finally, what the hell does the last part of that have to do with anything? is this your sentiment when people discuss marriage? someone on their deathbed?
Quote from: brainstormer on October 22, 2008, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: jeh1980 on October 22, 2008, 06:57:32 PM
I believe in God's design for marriage. The union of one man and one woman. 8)
And what does God's design for marriage say about divorce and having children out of wedlock? Don't these acts disgrace God's design just as much as say one man and another man getting married? In fact, aren't these two disgraceful acts the real reason why families in America are so troubled? Or do you still blame the two gay people down the street, raising a child together? Sadly, I find most Christians ignore and will quickly forgive someone who has divorced, or mothered a child out of wedlock. In my mind, the sins of an unwed mother and the sins of two men getting married would be equal. Both go against God's design. Unfortunately the issues are treated very differently, would you not agree? I respect your belief, 1980, but find all of the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue very troubling.
agreed.
Matt, I applaud your ability to not stray from your beliefs, and at the same time recognize that there can be two sides to every issue. It is important to at least try to understand both viewpoints. Thank you.
Matt, I LOVE YOU. are you available.
Only if you are under 25, thin, white, and hot.
Hahaha, just kidding. but yes, KUDOS
oh, i forgot, ASL?
Quoteso, if GOD did not intend for people act homosexually, why on earth would it be wrong to teach a class that gay marriage is wrong?
does UNF or FCCJ have such a class? and how many credits does it offer to the student?
Quote from: Driven1 on October 22, 2008, 10:18:33 PM
Quoteso, if GOD did not intend for people act homosexually, why on earth would it be wrong to teach a class that gay marriage is wrong?
does UNF or FCCJ have such a class? and how many credits does it offer to the student?
zero credits but life in purgatory?
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 22, 2008, 10:20:32 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 22, 2008, 10:18:33 PM
Quoteso, if GOD did not intend for people act homosexually, why on earth would it be wrong to teach a class that gay marriage is wrong?
does UNF or FCCJ have such a class? and how many credits does it offer to the student?
zero credits but life in purgatory?
what is purgatory?
Quote from: brainstormer on October 22, 2008, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: jeh1980 on October 22, 2008, 06:57:32 PM
I believe in God's design for marriage. The union of one man and one woman. 8)
And what does God's design for marriage say about divorce and having children out of wedlock? Don't these acts disgrace God's design just as much as say one man and another man getting married? In fact, aren't these two disgraceful acts the real reason why families in America are so troubled? Or do you still blame the two gay people down the street, raising a child together? Sadly, I find most Christians ignore and will quickly forgive someone who has divorced, or mothered a child out of wedlock. In my mind, the sins of an unwed mother and the sins of two men getting married would be equal. Both go against God's design. Unfortunately the issues are treated very differently, would you not agree? I respect your belief, 1980, but find all of the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue very troubling.
the real problem with brainstormer's sentiment is the logic is flawed.
his logic goes: since i see other people sin, i can live a blatantly unrepentant sinful life and it's OK. no one (who would deny this reality) really WANTS to know the truth (Romans), so I won't get into the details, but suffice it to say that this is not reality. as my good friend RSG has said before, saying something is true a hundred times doesn't make it true if it is false.
I really dislike this discusion. The courts have never dictated the rights to marriage until now. I firmly support the right to gay and lesbian marriage or civil unions. But that should be resolved in the legislature of the individual states but not judical fiat. We are setting ourselves up for a decison as divise as Roe vs Wade
Quote from: civil42806 on October 22, 2008, 10:31:31 PM
I really dislike this discusion. The courts have never dictated the rights to marriage until now.
the courts have never needed to before now. doesn't that tell us all we need to know?
it is certainly a divisive issue though.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 22, 2008, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: civil42806 on October 22, 2008, 10:31:31 PM
I really dislike this discusion. The courts have never dictated the rights to marriage until now.
the courts have never needed to before now. doesn't that tell us all we need to know?
it is certainly a divisive issue though.
No it doesn't tell all we have to know. Why are the courts suddenly deciding they have to be involved, what changed. the states consitution or there personal opinion, I think the latter.
btw...you think "Christianity" is "harsh" on homosexuals? HA!
Try being gay in Saudi Arabia!! See how far you get there?
a quick google search found this story...
Quote
Published 10/7/2007
Prison authorities in Saudi Arabia have begun administering 7,000 lashes to each of two men convicted of committing "homosexual acts", a local newspaper reported yesterday.
The Okaz newspaper says that the sentence was being meted out in "phases" and was being conducted in a public square in the southwestern city of Al-Bahah.
Neither man has been named.
The floggings began on Tuesday. The men were dragged into the square, their shirts removed and they where whipped. They were then returned to prison. The process was repeated on Wednesday and will continue daily until all 7,000 lashes have been administered. Shari'a law, as interpreted and enforced in Saudi Arabia, allows sentences ranging from imprisonment and flogging to death for “deviant sexual behaviour.â€
In the past several years there have been a number of reported mass arrests at "gay weddings" in various parts of the country, but little official information has been released on the outcomes of trials. Last year 20 men were arrested at what officials say was a "gay wedding" in the town of Jizan. Their fate is unknown.
In April, 2005,35 men were sentenced by a Saudi court to be flogged after they attended what was described as a “gay weddingâ€.
A month earlier a gay couple was beaded in a public execution in the northern town of Arar, near the Iraq border. The pair had been convicted of killing a blackmailer. If they had been exposed as gay they could have been executed anyway.
In 2004 Saudi police raided another event described as a gay wedding party for two African men from Chad at a hotel in the holy city of Medina. Around 50 people were arrested.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 22, 2008, 10:44:52 PM
btw...you think "Christianity" is "harsh" on homosexuals? HA!
Try being gay in Saudi Arabia!! See how far you get there?
a quick google search found this story...
Quote
Published 10/7/2007
Prison authorities in Saudi Arabia have begun administering 7,000 lashes to each of two men convicted of committing "homosexual acts", a local newspaper reported yesterday.
The Okaz newspaper says that the sentence was being meted out in "phases" and was being conducted in a public square in the southwestern city of Al-Bahah.
Neither man has been named.
The floggings began on Tuesday. The men were dragged into the square, their shirts removed and they where whipped. They were then returned to prison. The process was repeated on Wednesday and will continue daily until all 7,000 lashes have been administered. Shari'a law, as interpreted and enforced in Saudi Arabia, allows sentences ranging from imprisonment and flogging to death for “deviant sexual behaviour.â€
In the past several years there have been a number of reported mass arrests at "gay weddings" in various parts of the country, but little official information has been released on the outcomes of trials. Last year 20 men were arrested at what officials say was a "gay wedding" in the town of Jizan. Their fate is unknown.
In April, 2005,35 men were sentenced by a Saudi court to be flogged after they attended what was described as a “gay weddingâ€.
A month earlier a gay couple was beaded in a public execution in the northern town of Arar, near the Iraq border. The pair had been convicted of killing a blackmailer. If they had been exposed as gay they could have been executed anyway.
In 2004 Saudi police raided another event described as a gay wedding party for two African men from Chad at a hotel in the holy city of Medina. Around 50 people were arrested.
I lived there for 3 years, between saudi, bahrain and Uae, its worse than you can imagine
You haven't lived until the saudi authorities insist you attend a public execution. There have been huge mistakes in the Iraqi war, abu gharib amongst them. But I always remeber the executions we attended, and the attention that was payed to us by the locals. What ever we have done it doesn't compare to the beheading of a woman for adultry
Quote from: civil42806 on October 22, 2008, 11:05:28 PM
You haven't lived until the saudi authorities insist you attend a public execution. There have been huge mistakes in the Iraqi war, abu gharib amongst them. But I always remeber the executions we attended, and the attention that was payed to us by the locals. What ever we have done it doesn't compare to the beheading of woman for adultry
i've heard the exact same thing civil. had clients that worked 25 years in Saudi for AramCo. Said within a few weeks of being there they were in town and were pushed to the front of a large crowd and forced to watch a public beheading. they were then told that this is how Sha'ria law operates and they were now also under Sha'ria law. islam is a religion of peace though.
Quote from: Matt on October 22, 2008, 09:36:27 PM
Quote from: brainstormer on October 22, 2008, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: jeh1980 on October 22, 2008, 06:57:32 PM
I believe in God's design for marriage. The union of one man and one woman. 8)
And what does God's design for marriage say about divorce and having children out of wedlock? Don't these acts disgrace God's design just as much as say one man and another man getting married? In fact, aren't these two disgraceful acts the real reason why families in America are so troubled? Or do you still blame the two gay people down the street, raising a child together? Sadly, I find most Christians ignore and will quickly forgive someone who has divorced, or mothered a child out of wedlock. In my mind, the sins of an unwed mother and the sins of two men getting married would be equal. Both go against God's design. Unfortunately the issues are treated very differently, would you not agree? I respect your belief, 1980, but find all of the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue very troubling.
To be honest with you, even though christians like me believe in the sanctity of marriage(one man and one woman), I also believe that we shouldn't be so petty and cruel against people who are united in this gay marriage thing. I would reach to them with love as if they're not gay. We must understand that gay or straight, that person is still God's creation. Even if they're two men or two women married to each other, their still God's creation. But bottom line, even though homosexuality is sin (and it still is) God still loves them because He sent His only son, Jesus to die for their sin so they all can be saved. 8)
Quote from: jeh1980 on October 22, 2008, 11:30:09 PM
Quote from: Matt on October 22, 2008, 09:36:27 PM
Quote from: brainstormer on October 22, 2008, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: jeh1980 on October 22, 2008, 06:57:32 PM
I believe in God's design for marriage. The union of one man and one woman. 8)
And what does God's design for marriage say about divorce and having children out of wedlock? Don't these acts disgrace God's design just as much as say one man and another man getting married? In fact, aren't these two disgraceful acts the real reason why families in America are so troubled? Or do you still blame the two gay people down the street, raising a child together? Sadly, I find most Christians ignore and will quickly forgive someone who has divorced, or mothered a child out of wedlock. In my mind, the sins of an unwed mother and the sins of two men getting married would be equal. Both go against God's design. Unfortunately the issues are treated very differently, would you not agree? I respect your belief, 1980, but find all of the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue very troubling.
To be honest with you, even though christians like me believe in the sanctity of marriage(one man and one woman), I also believe that we shouldn't be so petty and cruel against people who are united in this gay marriage thing. I would reach to them with love as if they're not gay. We must understand that gay or straight, that person is still God's creation. Even if they're two men or two women married to each other, their still God's creation. But bottom line, even though homosexuality is sin (and it still is) God still loves them because He sent His only son, Jesus to die for their sin so they all can be saved. 8)
A very nice reponse all wont agree with you but a very civil comment
I never understand why the United States always prides itself on division between church and state, yet when it comes to sexuality the "Christian view" is always referenced. Note that the US has many religions other than Christian. Just because a man has feelings for a man or a woman for a woman does not mean they are any less of a person. Homosexuality has been going on since the beginning of time. It is not like it is a new invention. Just like abortion. (not that I think its good) You can place all these laws restricting it, but the reality is it's not going to go away. We give illegal aliens rights as citizens, yet a gay man or woman cannot get married and are treated as second class citizens. Gays have contributed so much to our society. Look at Johnny Mathis, James Dean, Elton John, Anderson Cooper, and even our governor Charlie Crist. Gays are everywhere, get used to it and open your mind. They give back more to society than they take!
Quote from: TheProfessor on October 22, 2008, 11:53:39 PM
I never understand why the United States always prides itself on division between church and state, yet when it comes to sexuality the "Christian view" is always referenced. Note that the US has many religions other than Christian. Just because a man has feelings for a man or a woman for a woman does not mean they are any less of a person. Homosexuality has been going on since the beginning of time. It is not like it is a new invention. Just like abortion. (not that I think its good) You can place all these laws restricting it, but the reality is it's not going to go away. We give illegal aliens rights as citizens, yet a gay man or woman cannot get married and are treated as second class citizens. Gays have contributed so much to our society. Look at Johnny Mathis, James Dean, Elton John, Anderson Cooper, and even our governor Charlie Crist. Gays are everywhere, get used to it and open your mind. They give back more to society than they take!
i don't think i disagree with a single statmeent you said. i just happen to think (is it still OK to have an opinion different from the liberal one??) that marriage has been and always should be between one man and one woman. that's all.
I'm glad you don't disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I think a person should be able to marry anthing they wish. Whether it be their pet pig or a cactus. If it makes them happy then by God go for it! No law control what the minds of its people will create.
Quote from: TheProfessor on October 23, 2008, 12:14:43 AM
I'm glad you don't disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I think a person should be able to marry anthing they wish. Whether it be their pet pig or a cactus. If it makes them happy then by God go for it! No law control what the minds of its people will create.
I agree that people are going to do very bizarre things - regardless of the laws. The only part of your statements this time that I disagree with is the "by God" part. :)
Why not. You don't believe in God?
Quote from: TheProfessor on October 23, 2008, 12:24:52 AM
Why not. You don't believe in God?
Ah, but I do my friend. Not only believe in Him, I know Him.
And that is the precise reason that I didn't agree with the "by God" phrase in how you used it. The bizarre and ungodly things that man may choose and make up to do are NOT "by God". They are by man. God is holy, set apart and it would be blasphemy to say that the creative ways we come up with to sin are "by" Him.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I said "by God" as in "with God." I think you should have faith in God in all you do even if you don't know its written to be wrong in some book, such as the bible, koran, tora, constitution, etc... I may be a Christian, but I accept others for who they are.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 12:29:30 AM
Quote from: TheProfessor on October 23, 2008, 12:24:52 AM
Why not. You don't believe in God?
Ah, but I do my friend. Not only believe in Him, I know Him.
And that is the precise reason that I didn't agree with the "by God" phrase in how you used it. The bizarre and ungodly things that man may choose and make up to do are NOT "by God". They are by man. God is holy, set apart and it would be blasphemy to say that the creative ways we come up with to sin are "by" Him.
So true.
Quote from: civil42806 on October 22, 2008, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 22, 2008, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: civil42806 on October 22, 2008, 10:31:31 PM
I really dislike this discusion. The courts have never dictated the rights to marriage until now.
the courts have never needed to before now. doesn't that tell us all we need to know?
it is certainly a divisive issue though.
No it doesn't tell all we have to know. Why are the courts suddenly deciding they have to be involved, what changed. the states consitution or there personal opinion, I think the latter.
You ask what changed to cause this. IMO... what changed was gays demanding the right to marry within the same sex. Gays have always been able to marry. They have, and are now, married to people of opposite sexes. What has changed is the demand to marry the same sex.
Simply put the Old Testament condems homosexual acts as punishable by death. THAT was "By God". In Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin. As an example, I too "Know God", yet recently helped my daughters wedding planning business by arranging a beautiful Lesbian wedding on the beach. Yes, I was there, but as Christians, to throw the first stone... or be ugly would be just as much a sin.
So what are we to do? Love them as Christ loves them. It's the only way to be the "light of this world". Lights don't do DARK things. That's my view.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2008, 09:58:29 AM
Simply put the Old Testament condems homosexual acts as punishable by death. THAT was "By God". In Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin. As an example, I too "Know God", yet recently helped my daughters wedding planning business by arranging a beautiful Lesbian wedding on the beach. Yes, I was there, but as Christians, to throw the first stone... or be ugly would be just as much a sin.
So what are we to do? Love them as Christ loves them. It's the only way to be the "light of this world". Lights don't do DARK things. That's my view.
Ock...the New Testament clearly condemns homosexuality as well....just as it condemns adultery and lying and stealing. All are clearly spelled out as sins. While it is convenient to throw out parts of the Bible that do not fit with what is becoming popular culture in the United States in 2008, I don't think God will smile upon that. Popular culture and opinion is CONSTANTLY changing. But God's word does not.
Those who choose a LIFE (meaning they live in it consistently and unrepentantly) of sin (a burglar, an adulterer, a homosexual) will clearly not inherit the kingdom of God.
Harsh words, right? Well, if anyone has a problem with this, you certainly do not have a problem with me - as I am called to love & respect those homosexuals that I know - and to love the guy who CONTINUALLY keeps breaking into and vandalizing one of my properties - and to love a friend of mine who CONTINUALLY lies to me and never shows up when he says he will or never keeps his obligations. I am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them. God will be the judge of all. But I am also called to not back down from God's truth.
No. If you have a problem with these words, you have a problem with a much higher authority than me. You have a problem with the Truth. With the Light. "The Light came into the world and the world hated the Light and loved darkness."
But as Christians, to deny the truth of scripture...that is very dangerous. And the whole reason the book of Galations was written...people were believing a "different gospel". The Bible defines who God is. To select out parts of the Bible and define God by that "newly created Bible" is to "create" a new "god" - to create an idol - a god who does not exist.
QuoteIn Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin.
Yes, but "forgiveness" is not a license to sin. Paul CLEARLY addressed this thought head on in Romans (paraphrasing - "What should we say then? That we should sin more that God's grace should abound more? May it NEVER be!"). Not only that, but our Savior addressed that very same issue as well. The woman caught in adultery. And Jesus said to the others, "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." But what did Jesus say next? Everyone so conveniently forgets the very next part. He turned to the woman and said, "Go and sin no more." God instructed her to leave her life of sin.
Grace is ALWAYS accompanied by truth.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 10:14:12 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2008, 09:58:29 AM
Simply put the Old Testament condems homosexual acts as punishable by death. THAT was "By God". In Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin. As an example, I too "Know God", yet recently helped my daughters wedding planning business by arranging a beautiful Lesbian wedding on the beach. Yes, I was there, but as Christians, to throw the first stone... or be ugly would be just as much a sin.
So what are we to do? Love them as Christ loves them. It's the only way to be the "light of this world". Lights don't do DARK things. That's my view.
Ock...the New Testament clearly condemns homosexuality as well....just as it condemns adultery and lying and stealing. All are clearly spelled out as sins. While it is convenient to throw out parts of the Bible that do not fit with what is becoming popular culture in the United States in 2008, I don't think God will smile upon that. Popular culture and opinion is CONSTANTLY changing. But God's word does not.
Those who choose a LIFE (meaning they live in it consistently and unrepentantly) of sin (a burglar, an adulterer, a homosexual) will clearly not inherit the kingdom of God.
Harsh words, right? Well, if anyone has a problem with this, you certainly do not have a problem with me - as I am called to love & respect those homosexuals that I know - and to love the guy who CONTINUALLY keeps breaking into and vandalizing one of my properties - and to love a friend of mine who CONTINUALLY lies to me and never shows up when he says he will or never keeps his obligations. I am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them. God will be the judge of all. But I am also called to not back down from God's truth.
No. If you have a problem with these words, you have a problem with a much higher authority than me. You have a problem with the Truth. With the Light. "The Light came into the world and the world hated the Light and loved darkness."
But as Christians, to deny the truth of scripture...that is very dangerous. And the whole reason the book of Galations was written...people were believing a "different gospel". The Bible defines who God is. To select out parts of the Bible and define God by that "newly created Bible" is to "create" a new "god" - to create an idol - a god who does not exist.
Do you honestly see homosexuality as being as serious a sin as adultery, lying and stealing? You must remember that not everybody in this country chooses to live according to the bible. I don't see why the bible's stance on homosexuality has anything to do with whether Gay marriage should be legal or not. This country was started on principles of religious freedom, it's laws should not have a basis in scripture.
Quote from: fightingosprey07 on October 23, 2008, 10:20:35 AM
Do you honestly see homosexuality as being as serious a sin as adultery, lying and stealing? You must remember that not everybody in this country chooses to live according to the bible. I don't see why the bible's stance on homosexuality has anything to do with whether Gay marriage should be legal or not. This country was started on principles of religious freedom, it's laws should not have a basis in scripture.
Honestly, to answer your question, it doesn't matter one bit what I think or how I see things. What matters is how God does. My opinion is rubbish. God instituted marriage as a covenant between one man and one woman. If God institutes something like that, it is my job as His follower to make his truth known when man's ideas seek to corrupt it. That's all.
QuoteQuoteQuote from: Driven1 on Today at 10:14:12 AM
QuoteQuote from: Ocklawaha on Today at 09:58:29 AM
Simply put the Old Testament condems homosexual acts as punishable by death. THAT was "By God". In Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin. As an example, I too "Know God", yet recently helped my daughters wedding planning business by arranging a beautiful Lesbian wedding on the beach. Yes, I was there, but as Christians, to throw the first stone... or be ugly would be just as much a sin.
So what are we to do? Love them as Christ loves them. It's the only way to be the "light of this world". Lights don't do DARK things. That's my view.
Ock...the New Testament clearly condemns homosexuality as well....just as it condemns adultery and lying and stealing. All are clearly spelled out as sins. While it is convenient to throw out parts of the Bible that do not fit with what is becoming popular culture in the United States in 2008, I don't think God will smile upon that. Popular culture and opinion is CONSTANTLY changing. But God's word does not.
Those who choose a LIFE (meaning they live in it consistently and unrepentantly) of sin (a burglar, an adulterer, a homosexual) will clearly not inherit the kingdom of God.
Harsh words, right? Well, if anyone has a problem with this, you certainly do not have a problem with me - as I am called to love & respect those homosexuals that I know - and to love the guy who CONTINUALLY keeps breaking into and vandalizing one of my properties - and to love a friend of mine who CONTINUALLY lies to me and never shows up when he says he will or never keeps his obligations. I am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them. God will be the judge of all. But I am also called to not back down from God's truth.
No. If you have a problem with these words, you have a problem with a much higher authority than me. You have a problem with the Truth. With the Light. "The Light came into the world and the world hated the Light and loved darkness."
But as Christians, to deny the truth of scripture...that is very dangerous. And the whole reason the book of Galations was written...people were believing a "different gospel". The Bible defines who God is. To select out parts of the Bible and define God by that "newly created Bible" is to "create" a new "god" - to create an idol - a god who does not exist.
Do you honestly see homosexuality as being as serious a sin as adultery, lying and stealing? You must remember that not everybody in this country chooses to live according to the bible. I don't see why the bible's stance on homosexuality has anything to do with whether Gay marriage should be legal or not. This country was started on principles of religious freedom, it's laws should not have a basis in scripture.
You rather answered your own questions of my statement of faith,
QuoteI am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them. God will be the judge of all.
Jesus lived and walked amoung many sinners and loved them all. However not all were forgiven, not all followed and many would later turn on him.
QuoteBut I am also called to not back down from God's truth.
One does not have to back down from Gods truth by refraining from confrontation, and argument.
I Peter 3:15. I went to that wedding to support both my dauther and one of the girls being "married", I was there for them if they needed me. If God convicts them of sin, they won't run away from him, or a church on my account. Hopefully thy'll say, "Hey remember that guy that..."
As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".
My view...
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".
My view...
OCKLAWAHA
I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)
Ock, I think I stand with you on the vast majority of your post. The only thing I think you may be forgetting is that we ARE actually called to "judge" (really it's not judge, but lovingly confront) one group of people: fellow believers. So - if someone calls themself a believer and does not live a life accordingly (example, is living a life of thievery or adultery or homosexuality), we are to confront them with God's truth. If God is in them, they will be called to repentance. If not, we are to "treat them as [an unbeliever]" to use Jesus's words (that is, to leave them and pray for them to be called to repentance).
Quote
Matt 18: 15-18
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
But you are right - we are NOT to get confrontational and act angrily and judgmental (like those "Christians" who hold up the hate signs in protests, etc...) to those who are non-believers (as it is COMPLETELY NATURAL for them to do all things against God - just as it was for us before we came to Christ).
Quote from: fightingosprey07 on October 23, 2008, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".
My view...
OCKLAWAHA
I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)
fighting,
good question. the answer is what Ock alluded to earlier - that Christians are now under a "New Convenant" (hence the name of the "New Testament"). it is not that the laws of the Old Testament were wrong - it is that every single one of those tedious OT laws were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He was the only one who fulfilled every law (crossed every "t" and dotted every "i"), through living a perfect, sinless life. It was then the substitutionary punishment He received on the cross (death that we should have received) and His subsequent rising from the the burial grave 3 days later that gives life eternally to to those who are His children.
Also, in doing all of this, he freed us from "the law of sin and death". The law was good and perfect , but it was also admittedly IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law (who has even followed the TEN Commandments- not one - we've all stolen SOMETHING or lied at least once). The law was only instituted by God to show how IMPOSSIBLE it is for man to be holy - only One is holy. We are now no longer (according to the NT) under law, but under grace (as Ock said), but grace is not a license to sin (see previous post). The book of Romans spells out quite clearly the fate of those who treat grace as a license.
By the way, if you are interested in the relationship of the OT to the NT, the best book by far is the book of Hebrews in your Bible.
Hope that makes sense and/or answered your question.
It is important to not say that "God" does a certain thing and that "God" did this or "God" did that. God is different in every religion. For one to take credit and say that their God is better than another is unfair. No one knows for sure...so don't act like it. The bible was written by a person that you have never met in a time that was very different from today. I have no problem if someone wants to live their life according to how a book tells them to, but they should not say that that is how everyone should live their lives. My "God" is different from yours, so don't take ownership and tell me what "God" believes.
I agree that there are a lot of valuable lessons in the bible, but I would never ask a country to use a book (fiction or not) as a guideline on how to govern. Not fair!
QuoteIs eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)
Any breaking of God's instructions (no matter how we as humans may classify them as "minor" or "major") is willful disobedience to Him. Think about it for a moment. The God of the universe. Who created everything and everything in it. The One who looks at the stars and says "go here" and they obey. The One who creates mountains in a single word. The One who says to the oceans, "you will only go this far" and they obey. That same One gives us an instruction and we say, "No!". No matter how trite we may consider His will, we have sinned against him if we disobey ("all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God").
Quote from: rachel9795 on October 23, 2008, 11:49:55 AM
It is important to not say that "God" does a certain thing and that "God" did this or "God" did that. God is different in every religion. For one to take credit and say that their God is better than another is unfair. No one knows for sure...so don't act like it. The bible was written by a person that you have never met in a time that was very different from today. I have no problem if someone wants to live their life according to how a book tells them to, but they should not say that that is how everyone should live their lives. My "God" is different from yours, so don't take ownership and tell me what "God" believes.
I agree that there are a lot of valuable lessons in the bible, but I would never ask a country to use a book (fiction or not) as a guideline on how to govern. Not fair!
Rachel. Welcome to the forums! Glad to have you here.
Also, life is not fair. God is, but life is not. :)
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 11:47:08 AM
Quote from: fightingosprey07 on October 23, 2008, 11:39:15 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".
My view...
OCKLAWAHA
I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)
fighting,
good question. the answer is what Ock alluded to earlier - that Christians are now under a "New Convenant" (hence the name of the "New Testament"). it is not that the laws of the Old Testament were wrong - it is that every single one of those tedious OT laws were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He was the only one who fulfilled every law (crossed every "t" and dotted every "i"), through living a perfect, sinless life. It was then the substitutionary punishment He received on the cross (death that we should have received) and His subsequent rising from the the burial grave 3 days later that gives life eternally to to those who are His children.
Also, in doing all of this, he freed us from "the law of sin and death". The law was good and perfect , but it was also admittedly IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law (who has even followed the TEN Commandments- not one - we've all stolen SOMETHING or lied at least once). The law was only instituted by God to show how IMPOSSIBLE it is for man to be holy - only One is holy. We are now no longer (according to the NT) under law, but under grace (as Ock said), but grace is not a license to sin (see previous post). The book of Romans spells out quite clearly the fate of those who treat grace as a license.
By the way, if you are interested in the relationship of the OT to the NT, the best book by far is the book of Hebrews in your Bible.
Hope that makes sense and/or answered your question.
Thanks Driven, you answered my question so well that I may ask you more in the future. When I ask my christian friends these questions they can't even come close to answering them. Here's another one for you: what happened to all of the people who died before Jesus was born? Did they all automatically go to heaven or hell?
I never said anything about life being fair......I just don't agree with you saying that your God is better or more superior than any other persons God. I don't think people should go around preaching to people who don't even care about what they have to say. Because you sound ridiculous to me. Anything that is prejudice should be kept to yourself.
Marraige is being noticed in this country for legal and tax purposes. Does a sheet of paper say your married in your God's eyes? So, it really has nothing to do with religion. If two people want to get married for legal and tax purposes, I have no problem with that, even if they are of the same gender. No one ever said that your God has to recognize it. It would probably help the economy if more people were married!
" I don't reckon you have to go with women to be a good daddy to a boy. You been real square-dealin' with me. The Bible says two men ought not lay together. But I don't reckon the Good Lord would send anybody like you to Hades."
-Slingblade (Karl)
Quote from: rachel9795 on October 23, 2008, 12:12:55 PM
I never said anything about life being fair......I just don't agree with you saying that your God is better or more superior than any other persons God. I don't think people should go around preaching to people who don't even care about what they have to say. Because you sound ridiculous to me. Anything that is prejudice should be kept to yourself.
Marraige is being noticed in this country for legal and tax purposes. Does a sheet of paper say your married in your God's eyes? So, it really has nothing to do with religion. If two people want to get married for legal and tax purposes, I have no problem with that, even if they are of the same gender. No one ever said that your God has to recognize it. It would probably help the economy if more people were married!
In Driven's defense, I did ask him to elaborate on the Christian point of view on this issue. He usually doesn't "preach" on too many issues.
As far as your opinion on gay marriage, I couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Shwaz on October 23, 2008, 12:14:39 PM
" I don't reckon you have to go with women to be a good daddy to a boy. You been real square-dealin' with me. The Bible says two men ought not lay together. But I don't reckon the Good Lord would send anybody like you to Hades."
-Slingblade (Karl)
I think I love you Shwaz, in the gay way.
Quote from: fightingosprey07 on October 23, 2008, 12:09:44 PM
Thanks Driven, you answered my question so well that I may ask you more in the future. When I ask my christian friends these questions they can't even come close to answering them. Here's another one for you: what happened to all of the people who died before Jesus was born? Did they all automatically go to heaven or hell?
Another good question. One I have had before - and asked before myself (along with many, many others). I'll give a short answer and a long answer. Here they are...
The short answer to your question is that â€" like today â€" those who followed God went to heaven and those who did not, did not.
God first reached back out to man through his relationship with the Jews. Through his revelations to them, man again had a way to spend eternity with God. By the way…there were many people who were not Jews and who God gave opportunity to become Jews and follow His laws and receive forgiveness. Some of them did. Many did not. This is well-documented throughout the historical books of the OT.
Followers of God before Christ followed the old covenant laws for forgiveness. The way of salvation at that time was through obedience to the laws given by God through various prophets and people like Moses and Joshua. In those laws a person was forgiven of their sins by making various sacrifices.
The long answer...
Back then a lot of value was placed on animals that were used for meat. There wasn't all that much money floating around, not a lot in way of places to buy food, not very good ways to preserve food, and the animals were needed for survival. Bulls, sheep (meat and clothing=wool) goats,(meat and milk) rams, oxen, doves, grain, and more.
The people would sacrifice the very best of these animals and grain to God. Desiring and showing a great need for forgiveness. They would give up what was essentially their “daily bread†to God â€" in a sense saying, “We will trust YOU God for our daily breadâ€. They showed respect, repentance and honor to God in this way.
Often, the blood of these animals was offered too. Blood shows life. No blood…no life. The blood shows total surrender plus the meat of the animals was to be placed on a sort of stone alter (like a cooking pit or table) and burned/cooked there. The people were not to eat the meat since it was offered to God and not used as food for themselves.
Also, as early as 550 BC (though the prophet Isaiah), the Jews came to believe in a coming Messiah (Jesus). It is difficult to read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah (which it is well-documented was written 550 years before Christ was born) and then read the crucifixion of Jesus and NOT believe in what is written.
The blood was a forerunner of the blood that would shed by Jesus, when He was crucified for our forgiveness. Jesus gave His very best-His own life, His own blood, for our forgiveness. Jesus blood came about when the nails were driven into His hands and feet, when the thorns were smashed into His head, when He was whipped, and when a spear was thrust into His side. Jesus shed His blood for our forgiveness, much like the blood of the animals was shed for forgiveness.
Animal and grain sacrifice was no longer needed after Jesus sacrificed His holy self on our behalf on the cross.
QuoteI think I love you Shwaz, in the gay way
I'll be gay with you if this marriage proposal passes... I could use the tax break. ;)
QuoteThe people would sacrifice the very best of these animals and grain to God
I flushed one of my Beta fish yesterday... he did not pass in vein though. He died for the sins of my other Beta fish. They can now understand god's meaning for them and try to live in his image.. as well as pass judgement on messageboard's.
QuoteI never said anything about life being fair......I just don't agree with you saying that your God is better or more superior than any other persons God. I don't think people should go around preaching to people who don't even care about what they have to say. Because you sound ridiculous to me. Anything that is prejudice should be kept to yourself.
Marraige is being noticed in this country for legal and tax purposes. Does a sheet of paper say your married in your God's eyes? So, it really has nothing to do with religion. If two people want to get married for legal and tax purposes, I have no problem with that, even if they are of the same gender. No one ever said that your God has to recognize it. It would probably help the economy if more people were married!
Master of time and eternity - Creator of the Universe and all within and beyond - everlasting - all knowing and all powerfull would all fit the Christian view of God. If you worship a different god or goddess - who are we to condem you. There is no pre-judice in believing your house is better then living in a travel trailer, perhaps it is for you but not for the RV lover. Yet you "know" in your heart, yours is superior. This is why any message of the Christian Gospel should be given in love and by invitation to those who want to hear. If someone is preaching Krishna on the street corner, I myself, would sit and listen...Maybe even buy a book. But only for the purpose of a deeper understanding of other peoples hearts and beliefs. The Cross of Christ "SHOULD BE" the least offensive symbol in this world.
As for Gay Marriage, like I said, the Bible calls it a sin. I choose to live by the Bible, yet I consider a host of Gay and Lesbian citizens amoung my close friends. I'll attend the wedding and celebrate with them, I'll also pray for them to find the peace with God that I have. Not that they "Have to clean up their act" because that would be judgement - and in my Christian belief - ONLY GOD will judge. Do I think homosexuals will go to heaven? Well, does the average Christian believe that any of them are sinless? Which of us has "THAT" sin that's going to stop them at the door? Jesus just said "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and lets me in, I will dwell in him..." No where does it say "I stand at the "Straight" door and knock.
So Rachel if you need an old Hippie Christian to run barefoot through the park with... give me a call. EVERYONES invited. OCKLAWAHA
Oh mye iff we's gonna go to blazes fer bad spelin, Im dead meat!
OCKLAWAHA
I like you Ock. You obviously know your stuff...and not just with the head knowledge way of knowing.
QuoteThe Cross of Christ "SHOULD BE" the least offensive symbol in this world.
actually, we all WISH it were that way, but we know from the scriptures that. "Christ is the stumbling block." He is extremely controversial because He does call us to choose whom we will serve - man or God. Just the mention of his name creates controversy.
Quotewas the flushed fishy perfect and sinless?
a hetero virgin too.
Thanks for the spell-check.. my posts are like the bible.. always open for interpretation.
Quote from: Shwaz on October 23, 2008, 12:54:52 PM
my posts are like the bible.. always open for interpretation.
to those who read it, yes, it is.
Quoteto those who read it, yes, it is
Find the meaning that works for you and call it "law" or "truth".
Is that you Driven? (the first one)
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2007/09/masterpiece.html
"if you believe in Jesus you can stay here......I rebuke it in the name of the LORD!"
;)
I do not mind being ridiculed, mocked and attacked for the cross of Christ.
Though I would rather that we just discuss the issues.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 01:14:32 PM
I do not mind being ridiculed, mocked and attacked for the cross of Christ.
I kid, I kid. Just light hearted fun-poking.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 01:14:32 PM
I do not mind being ridiculed, mocked and attacked for the cross of Christ.
Though I would rather that we just discuss the issues.
Do you REALLY think this thread will end with a resololution? Seriously.
Quote from: The Compound on October 23, 2008, 01:17:52 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 01:14:32 PM
I do not mind being ridiculed, mocked and attacked for the cross of Christ.
Though I would rather that we just discuss the issues.
Do you REALLY think this thread will end with a resololution? Seriously.
Find a single thread on ANY topic on here that ends with resolution. None of them do. Shouldn't discourage civil discussion though.
thread is ghey :D
QuoteQuoteI do not mind being ridiculed, mocked and attacked for the cross of Christ.
Though I would rather that we just discuss the issues.
Do you REALLY think this thread will end with a resololution? Seriously.
Doesn't really matter if it ends with resolution or not - there is perhaps one thing most all of us will agree to, straight, Christian, gay, lesbian, Mormon, Jew, JW, Krishna, Church of Christ, or free thinkers - we are blessed to be living in JACKSONVILLE. OCKLAWAHA
Interesting comments about this topic. As a native of Jacksonville, I can tell you from experience that most people that oppose gay narriage hide behind their christian beliefs to try and convince people that two people of the same sex cannot fall in love, raise a family or contribute to society like straight people. Try being gay and catholic in J-ville. I try to respect everyones beliefs and opinions(I will admit it doesnt always work). The fact is that if you asked gay people if they are christian, a majority would probably say yes(in some form or anoyher). I guess my point is that the people behind ammendment 2 are not concerned about the sanctity of traditional marriage as much as they are about their dislike of the gay community. If they were there would be ammendments prohibiting divorce. Having said this I do agree that everyone has the rigt to believe in what they choose. I just wish that we just respect everyones opinions without taking them personally. Something I will work hard on. God bless everyone!
QuoteI guess my point is that the people behind ammendment 2 are not concerned about the sanctity of traditional marriage as much as they are about their dislike of the gay community.
i would like to set the record straight. i am against gay marriage. i could care less about the "gay community"...i mean, i don't ever think about it. don't ever criticize it or ridicule it (i could wish that the "gay community" would not criticize the Christian community as well). really - it is not a bother one way or the other to me. i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
in regards to your assertion that... "If they were there would be ammendments prohibiting divorce. " your logic is that the institution of marriage is already flawed, so let's just break it all to pieces. OR - that is the way i view your assertion, at least.
i have been known to be wrong a time or two though. ;)
First, just let me say again, like I did in previous post. I dont aim to criticize anyone or their opinion. I just know from my own personal experience that people opposed to gay marriage cannot cite one particular fact that gay marriage undermines straight marriage in any way. As fo your assertion that my logic is flawed, let me just tell you that if I thought that traditional marriage is alredy flawed or in shambles I dont think so many gay citizens(tax paying, law abiding, legal residents of this country) would like to be afforded the same opportunity as everyone else. My comments arent intended to belittle anyones opinion, I know that this is a very important issue for some people and I am just trying to add some insight into the discussion. Thanks for listening everyone.
I'm just going to sit back and watch this show. I made my point clear before, so I'll see what others say. Fair arguements so far from what I've read.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.
I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 23, 2008, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.
I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.
Exactly! and that's the problem, people still think that others make a choice, when it's not one
I also wanted to add that IMO by saying that the 2 friends choose to be gay and then in the same breath saying that you respect them is flawed. I would also like to know their (the gay indiduals') opinion on Driven saying they chose that lifestyle.
Discuss.....
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 23, 2008, 07:03:14 PM
I also wanted to add that IMO buy saying that the 2 friends choose to be gay and then in the same breath saying that you respect them is flawed. I would also like to know their (the gay indiduals') opinion on Driven saying they chose that lifestyle.
Discuss.....
They would probably say "I actually have a friend who believes we chose this lifestyle, and I respect him all the same."
I don't think his logic is flawed, he just looks at things from a different perspective from you and I. We should all be able to respect that.
In regards to the question, How do gay people feel about the notion that we choose this lifestyle, I would respond with the following idea. I think part of that is true. We all choose the type of lifestyle we live. But as for the assumption that we choose to be gay. I think that is nonsense. If that were true then all of us would have homosexual tendencies, but only some of us would choose to act upon them. I wonder how straight people feel about that assumption. Anyway, as far as the original idea about homosexual marriage and christianity, I think we all(myself included) sometimes pick and choose what or what not to beleive when it comes to the bible. Just a thought!
Quote from: GatorShane on October 23, 2008, 07:20:31 PM
In regards to the question, How do gay people feel about the notion that we choose this lifestyle, I would respond with the following idea. I think part of that is true. We all choose the type of lifestyle we live. But as for the assumption that we choose to be gay. I think that is nonsense. If that were true then all of us would have homosexual tendencies, but only some of us would choose to act upon them. I wonder how straight people feel about that assumption. Anyway, as far as the original idea about homosexual marriage and christianity, I think we all(myself included) sometimes pick and choose what or what not to beleive when it comes to the bible. Just a thought!
If anyone thinks we chose this lifestyle for the props and stuff, they're an absolute moron. Seriously, come on now. I am all for gay rights and equality, but marriage is sort of stupid to me. My mom is a Divorce Coordinator in Tennessee, and seeing some of the files that come across her desk, makes me hate marriage some days. I plan on being an activist when I can later on down the road, not just for gays, but everyone. I just think it is funny when people try to bring the Bible into the mix. I was raised Southern Baptist, but now, I think most of it is a book. Chew on that for a little bit.
If you tell me homosexuality is morally wrong, then getting divorces, eating certain foods, and such are sins in the Bible, so please, do not f*cking preach to me. I have better things to learn about and listen to.
You are preaching to the choir brother!
It's just so funny the Amendment 2 is even ehre, when gay marriage is already outlawed in the State Constitution. This won't hurt gays as badly, IMO. I'm just relaly worried about seniors and people that live together domestically to save money or just have a companion around to help and such.
I'm just still baffled by how this became such an issue, when it should be a non-issue right away. Just watch, if DADT is repealed, which may happen with Obama, this could set the tone of things to come. I can honestly see down the road, these bannings being done away with by the Supreme Court, some day. I would love for DADT to be repealed, it is such a stupid law. Only the saltiest sailors and retired ones really like it. Most could care less, which is the new Navy now, the old just needs to go(except for traditions, them gotta stay)
QuoteQuoteQuote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on Today at 07:03:14 PM
I also wanted to add that IMO buy saying that the 2 friends choose to be gay and then in the same breath saying that you respect them is flawed. I would also like to know their (the gay indiduals') opinion on Driven saying they chose that lifestyle.
Discuss.....
They would probably say "I actually have a friend who believes we chose this lifestyle, and I respect him all the same."
I don't think his logic is flawed, he just looks at things from a different perspective from you and I. We should all be able to respect that.
As a Christian and "Old Hippie" I have a unique perspective perhaps. I find that the church - meaning the body of believers (not a denomination) - has some repair work to do. But that repair will have more to do with HUMAN PRIDE then with scripture interpretation or translation. For example, for 2,000 years the Christians have been expecting the earth to end in a fireball. Well now science says OMG! It's gonna end in a fireball! Meteors, Comets, NEO's, UFO's, Global Warming, Green house gases, pollution...etc... Yet the very same body of believers are the first to the polls to support those who will do NOTHING about the problems because some liberal scientist made it up. HUH? Guys.... HELLO? Isn't this just what we have been saying? Of course we can't set a date, but based on non-Christian and Christian prophets looks like 2010 and 2012 are going to be ugly years. The end? Maybe, maybe not.
Now back to the Gay question. As a Christian, we are supposed to LOVE THE SINNER yet we are allowed to dislike the sin. Is practicing Gay or Lesbian lifestyle a sin? The Bible says yes. But is "Being Gay" a sin? The Bible is silent, it only says "For all have sinned - and redemption is for all." Now we have science closing in on a "gay gene" what about the new findings that Gay men (or the reverse in women) are bathed in a womb of the opposite genes before birth. HUH? again the church has been saying this all along and now wants to deny it? Not me.
"In the last days men and women will burn with unnatural desires, men for men, women for women, as in the days of Sodom." Well, why? Maybe our own poison in the atmosphere or our highly screwed up food sources?
Who knows, but we do know that food can have certain effects on a baby's sex. So isn't this just prophetic?
As I read it there WILL BE GAY AND LESBIAN people, born in ever increasing numbers with a desire that "burns for the same sex." God said it, that's what I believe, why would I try and explain around or judge it? Maybe as an "Old Hippie" I still want to give everyone a hug. Now if I said I don't give a damn about your sexual orientation! (oops am I going to hell now?) What about the 60+ some hippie chicks I .... uh.... dated? Going to hell for that? NOPE! Forgiven. I believe Gods market is open 24 x 7 x 365.24 days a year, y'all come now ya hear? OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: GatorShane on October 23, 2008, 07:50:43 PM
You are preaching to the choir brother!
I almost started this past weekend at European Street with all of us there. That wouldn't have been pretty.
Quote from: GatorShane on October 23, 2008, 07:20:31 PM
In regards to the question, How do gay people feel about the notion that we choose this lifestyle, I would respond with the following idea. I think part of that is true. We all choose the type of lifestyle we live. But as for the assumption that we choose to be gay. I think that is nonsense. If that were true then all of us would have homosexual tendencies, but only some of us would choose to act upon them. I wonder how straight people feel about that assumption. Anyway, as far as the original idea about homosexual marriage and christianity, I think we all(myself included) sometimes pick and choose what or what not to beleive when it comes to the bible. Just a thought!
Gatorshane...w/ all due respect (it really is due to you, I'm not just saying that), here is how I view the choice of living a homosexual lifestyle.
I do think that some men and women will wrestle with homosexual tendencies. I think that this is something that some people in our population will struggle with. But I also think that some people will struggle - due to their environment or genetics or whatever - with alcoholism. They will be "naturally" more tempted by that than others. Others may face a certain deeper struggle/temptation with child or spousal abuse (maybe because they grew up in a home where they witnessed or were victim to the same).
And someone who gives in and chooses to live life (and not fight those temptations) as an alcoholic, for instance...that person then may even start to DEFINE THEMSELVES as an alcoholic. That is sad. Because they have then started to make the core being of their life defined by an addiction and behavior that they have ULTIMATELY chosen. God will give the strength to overcome EVERY temptation. It may not be easy. And it MAY actually even be a life-long struggle for some - but I can tell you that I personally have struggled with a certain set of sins now for 18 years - I have had victories and deep valleys - but I can tell you 3 things:
1) my God has been faithful...just as He said, he has never left me
2) by His grace, I have never given in and defined myself and who I am by those behaviors/choices
3) I NEVER stopped calling my behavior what it clearly was/is - SIN...my willful choosing to give in and disobey...to do so I knew would create a callousness on my heart that becomes extremely difficult to thaw and for God to break through
There are other such examples in additions to the ones I listed above, but you probably start to get my point though and see my parallels.
So as not to offend, I will refrain from giving my full opinion (which really is quite useless and meaningless) on the subject of homosexuality in the Bible, but I do feel compelled to say that God Himself clearly states that homosexuality is a sin.
Thank you for allowing me to share my opinion and - in a sense - some of my own personal struggles.
Quote from: reednavy on October 23, 2008, 07:39:54 PM
If you tell me homosexuality is morally wrong, then getting divorces, eating certain foods, and such are sins in the Bible, so please, do not f*cking preach to me. I have better things to learn about and listen to.
Reed...respectfully I submit to you that I have heard these rationalizations many times before (the Bible says you're supposed to shave your head, women can't have braided hair, no dancing, no eating pork, etc...). You are taking things picking and choosing certain items and twisting them out of context without understanding the bigger picture that the Bible presents of God's plan of redemption of mankind through time. Now - if you completely reject the Bible and God's plan revealed there, then that is one thing. Just say so. But if you sincerely wanted to know ... nevermind...I feel way too much like I'm preaching. :)
Ock...again, I like your post and agree with you.
The ideas of marriage under law, and marriage under God need to be separated. Marriage should not be left to states to decide if there are Federal benefits involved. I never understood this idea that marriage should be only between one man and one woman. Why not take the DIFFICULT task of keeping YOUR OWN marriage between one man and one woman? Is it so hard for you, that you must legally obligate your marriage to this standard? This concept of exclusion is the principle tenet of religion: "Because you look, act, or think differently, you are less than.†Because this is the mentality commanded by most organized religions (please note my intended exclusion of the word “godâ€) a compromise cannot be reached in the opponent’s mind. I cannot understand why, in the progressive society that we claim to live in and uphold, we still trying to govern people’s lives based on our contempt of their lifestyle, or mandates of irrelevant manuscripts. If the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 09:55:16 PMIf the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.
I am becoming active (just like you) in the civil affairs of the society that I live in. You come with your intentions that are based on your lifestyle and I come with mine. We each come with our own. You have your own anthropologic reasons for believing the way that you do. I have my reasons as well. It should not really be of concern if my reasons are derived from my spiritual beliefs or from a tree I met once as a kid.
That was a more 'secular' response to your post.
Now, more personally, I do not want my children growing up in a society in which I see something as clearly violating nature and God's law as "legalized by the state".
And also...
The bible is NOT clear about homosexuality (as if that was the litmus test anyway)
A clear statement:
Man shalt not insert his penis into any bodily openings of another man. Nor shalt he marry another man.
An unclear statement:
Man shalt not lay with man as with woman (forgive the lack of direct quote)
That is NOT clear! I lay with man on my side, but I lay with women on my back. Who is to say that the position of your body in the bed is not what is meant?
Another example:
Man shalt not make his dog blue.
Do you mean I shalt not make my dog sad? Or I shalt not make my dog the color blue? Is it okay for woman to make the dog blue?
Basically, you read into it what you want.
It would be far less insulting to gays (and human logic) if you just say that you are prejudice toward gays and have no desire to let them freely run their lives. It would be far more honest and end the contradiction to the loving spirit of this god character people speak so highly of.
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 09:55:16 PMIf the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.
I am becoming active (just like you) in the civil affairs of the society that I live in. You come with your intentions that are based on your lifestyle and I come with mine. We each come with our own. You have your own anthropologic reasons for believing the way that you do. I have my reasons as well. It should not really be of concern if my reasons are derived from my spiritual beliefs or from a tree I met once as a kid.
That was a more 'secular' response to your post.
Now, more personally, I do not want my children growing up in a society in which I see something as clearly violating nature and God's law as "legalized by the state".
Okay, that's nice and all...
But
[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.
[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.
This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?
actually, i think everyone here could agree that we have all had a pretty decent and civilized discussion. right?
In this ONE case, yes.
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 10:47:34 PM
In this ONE case, yes.
i agree...i wish more of our discussions were more like this. we obviously have a broad spectrum of views on this very controversial matter and we have been able to express them without getting down in the mud with namecalling and viciousness.
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 10:30:48 PMOkay, that's nice and all...
But
[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.
[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.
This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?
gradco...give me a little time on this one. honestly, you've kind of gone over my head. i'm going to have to take some time to read what you are saying and see if I can answer your questions. btw - i do not "judge" you. and i do think that if you choose to be gay (or didn't choose, or whatever...) that you SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple. just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God.
I find it so interesting that straight religious people are so concerned about who I love...wanna quote their religious text like it means something. IF it means something, then please understand it means something to YOU...so it is very simple...don't get married to someone of your own sex or YOUR God will cast you into the fires of hell. Sounds smart to me.
Honestly the thought of "lying with a woman"....does nothing for me....been there done that for many years to simply please those who told me I was going to hell. I was miserable, and dishonest to myself and the woman I was with..all I did was LIE/LYE with the woman...there was nothing of any value there.
Simply put, I am gay...I don't know why I am...I just am and when I love someone, and I'm not talking about the heterosexual "right" to go to the courthouse or Vegas on the first day I meet someone and get married kinda love...I'm talking about truly loving someone, then that IS God. "God is Love".... (I think it even says it in the new testament...so I guess "God is Love" applies if this is what you say you believe.)
I have not been "lying with" a man for the last 13 years. I have been loving him, and supporting him and he is my best friend. We just got back from California. Yes, after 13 years, we were legally married in the Beverly Hills Courthouse. The ONLY thing that changed....is California is $150.00 richer....and I have a piece of paper that is a step closer to acknowlegement of "EQUAL RIGHTS" as a tax paying American--there are no special rights wanted here.
Let me be clear, we are not look for straight people's approval, or a religious blessing on what we have. We are looking for our government to not treat us as second class citizens. Did you know that there are still 1138 federal benefits that I and my Husband (in 5 states) do not receive...because the majority wish to vote yes on silly laws that block equal rights for all? Probably not because you as a straight person are receiving them.
So go ahead, sit on your high horse with your religious book in your hand as you vote. And everytime you vote to pass laws that limit my civil rights, I want you to ask yourself " Am I a BETTER American than them and deserve special rights? If the answer is yes...then...(aren't you special) and go ahead and vote away....
And for all of you that vote so that the minority may have EQUAL RIGHTS as tax paying Americans so that we may live with the dignity and respect. I say thank you. ;D
Vote NO on Prop 2 or at least READ the WHOLE PROPOSITION before you vote...it benefits NO ONE!)
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 10:54:04 PM
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 10:30:48 PMOkay, that's nice and all...
But
[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.
[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.
This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?
gradco...give me a little time on this one. honestly, you've kind of gone over my head. i'm going to have to take some time to read what you are saying and see if I can answer your questions. btw - i do not "judge" you. and i do think that if you choose to be gay (or didn't choose, or whatever...) that you SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple. just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God.
Thank you for the reply.
I do not want to settle for just a civil union though. I want either marriage equality for all or none. I do not support separate-but-equal. God does not issue marriage licenses, so why does this continue to come up in SECULAR issues such as marriage? The ceremony is what should be governed by your religious convictions, not the legal matters IMO.
I mean, this goes beyond your ideology. This actually effects real people's lives. Many straight people take for granted the benefits automatically bestowed on them with just this little piece of paper. Gay people lose custody, and property, and money, and visitation rights, and life decision making, etc behind the religious convictions of others. It is a destructive & vicious cycle of elitism really.
"My bible (which you are not obligated to live by) has commanded me to deny you the privelages that I receive because I say so. Now I love you, but life is not fair & what's love got to do with it anyway? Please don't be upset with me, your problem is with my God (who you have never met or seek to meet or follow for that matter) as he commands all the steps in my life. Please take me seriously as I stomp on your future well-being. I will be praying for you."
Quoteyou SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple. just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God.
AGREED
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 23, 2008, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.
I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.
Yes. There is no free will. The thief or the tax cheat or the murderer bear no responsibility for their actions. After all, their genes made them do it!
Quote from: jbm32206 on October 23, 2008, 06:59:06 PM
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 23, 2008, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.
I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.
Exactly! and that's the problem, people still think that others make a choice, when it's not one
You cant choose your race but you can choose your behavior. Sex acts are behavior. Sorry but that argument doesnt hold water.
Quote from: reednavy on October 23, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
It's just so funny the Amendment 2 is even ehre, when gay marriage is already outlawed in the State Constitution. This won't hurt gays as badly, IMO. I'm just relaly worried about seniors and people that live together domestically to save money or just have a companion around to help and such.
I'm just still baffled by how this became such an issue, when it should be a non-issue right away. Just watch, if DADT is repealed, which may happen with Obama, this could set the tone of things to come. I can honestly see down the road, these bannings being done away with by the Supreme Court, some day. I would love for DADT to be repealed, it is such a stupid law. Only the saltiest sailors and retired ones really like it. Most could care less, which is the new Navy now, the old just needs to go(except for traditions, them gotta stay)
DADT needs to go, I agree. We need to go back to actively discharging homosexuals.
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 10:16:07 PM
And also...
The bible is NOT clear about homosexuality (as if that was the litmus test anyway)
The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of homosexuality. It is absolutely wrong, period.
Homosexuals like to distort this in order to rationalize their behavior unfortunately.
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 23, 2008, 11:37:27 PM
Quote from: jbm32206 on October 23, 2008, 06:59:06 PM
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 23, 2008, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 23, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it. i respect them just the same as my other friends. so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I?
And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.
I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.
Exactly! and that's the problem, people still think that others make a choice, when it's not one
You cant choose your race but you can choose your behavior. Sex acts are behavior. Sorry but that argument doesnt hold water.
[1] WTF does sex have to do with marriage? Last time I checked, you don't even have to prove you love a person to marry them. Why do people feel like they are denying sex instead of legal rights? The "unnatural sex" argument is irrelevant as it applies to marriage. There are no requirements set on sexual intercourse frequency or child production in marriage.
[2] Denying marriage equality based someone's choice of sexual pleasure is going too far. This whole the behavior is a choice non-sense is beyond contempt.
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 23, 2008, 11:42:17 PM
Quote from: gradco2004 on October 23, 2008, 10:16:07 PM
And also...
The bible is NOT clear about homosexuality (as if that was the litmus test anyway)
The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of homosexuality. It is absolutely wrong, period.
Homosexuals like to distort this in order to rationalize their behavior unfortunately.
You should correct yourself on your last point. You meant to say: CHRISTIAN homosexuals, unlike myself.
I can give a rat's ass about the bible or the phone book for that matter.
Can you please post me the "crystal" version of this condemnation? Just for my own sake. I have not come across it yet; possibly due to its non-existence.
I see this as a tragic bi-product of centurys of church teachings, which in reality are hold overs from Pope Leo of Rome and the Catholic faith at the end of a sword. The slaughter of Jean Ribault and the Fort Caroline settlers did NOTHING to further the cause of the church. Neither will the judgement of people who are Gay.
The bottom line as Christians, we should not be in the business of judging you by our scriptures. Rather we should be loving you by our faith in Christ. This is why I helped in the Lesbian wedding, why I was there for my friend, the lifestyle isn't for me, but who am I to judge them? If the church took as much time helping our Gay community as we do in other area's we wouldn't need this discussion. Food pantrys, clothing, job training, financial help, couples counseling, spiritual growth, HIV screening, Medical help, Bible teaching, open accepting worship services. This is the Great Commission, to go out and reach the world for Christ. We talk to Killers and bus drivers, to executives and homeless, to rich and to poor, to men and to women. We even have ministrys in jails, prisons, and on the streets. But why must the Gay community conform to some imagined standard before we can break bread together? So why is this thread causing an attack on our scriptures or beliefs? Maybe because 90% of Chrisitans have been whacking people over the head with it for years. As I said in previous posts, we should do all things in love. If I have a Gay or Lesbian friend that needs me, I'M THERE BUDDY! Just say the word. Perhaps they will see a spark in my life that they would like to have in theirs, no need to sell out, no need to be UN-GAY... For me it's about Jesus and what he did for the world, and what he did for you and for me. Funny Jesus the man, hung out with prostitutes, drunks, soldiers, tax collectors (who were on the take), sailors, and thieves. He came for us just as we are, not as some church group thinks we should be. In fact one of the oldest and most loved hymns in the church is "Just As I Am"... Long past due for the church to refocus on loving, and get out of the political arena.
Can't have a bar near a church... HUH? Sorry folks isn't that where the church SHOULD BE located?
Put on your Sunday best...Yeah, like the Lord is holding a beauty contest.
See my point y'all, again, it's about YOU and a relationship with GOD, and shame on us Christians if we have caused any of you to despise us our Scripture or our God.
Now if y'all would kindly forgive me if I've offended anyone, we'll all have a group hug at Hemming Plaza...
tomorrow... I'm going to bed!
OCKLAWAHA
I avoid commenting at this site most of the time now because a few people make it very uncomfortable to come here and express a view.
But I will contribute my 2 cents worth on this topic.
First my comments are mostly for Riversidegator and Driven 1.
I believe that the Bible does teach that Homosexuality is wrong along with many other activities.
And although I am not justifying a lifestyle, keep in mind that in the early days of the Jews and the law covenant with God, adulterers, homosexuals, and even children who were grossly disobedient to their parents were stoned to death. After Jesus' death, Christians were to lovingly try to help those who were leading a sinful life. He never made fun of or treated sinners with contempt but tried to help them.
The reason so many "sinful" people today resent Christians is they condemn and show contempt toward those who lead a lifestyle they don't approve of. And by no means am I saying all Christians are guilty of this.
I know, Riverside Gator that you believe that gay people try to justify their lifestyle by saying they were born that way, but guess what every day the medical and scientific world are discovering that most are. Do you really believe that millions of people would CHOSE to live a lifestyle that is reviled by the majority.
I am not saying that if you believe the Bible and you want to oppose your tendencies that you can't.
Driven1 and RVG, you probably remember the verses in the "New Testament" that talk about many in the early Christian groups who were liars, fornicators, adulterers, thieves, gluttons, people who overindulged in alcohol, worshipped idols, and yes homosexuals yet they chose to abandon their behavior.
But I feel sure there were some who went back to their former behavior, because maybe it was in their DNA and they found it too difficult to fight.
If you do believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, remember it is more a sin against oneself than many of the others, like murder and stealing, so it's much easier to give into those thoughts and feelings knowing you aren't hurting anyone but yourself.
And remember your lustful thoughts toward a woman who is not your wife, means according to Jesus, you have "committed adultry in your heart." I am not accusing either one of you of doing this but believe me I have been with "Chistians," who said "look at the fag," he's going to hell or whatever and then made a lewd comment about a woman walking down the street. The boat is getting full.
I probably haven't earned any points from either side, but bottom line is if you really want to be a good person you must try to show kindness and goodwill toward as many people as you can.
If you disapprove of someone's lifestyle thats your right, but in a world that is filled with so many complex problems, let people make their own decisions about how they want to live as long as it doesn't harm others.
And for goodness sake let them have legal rights. Thats the real issue here anyway.
Also Driven 1, I'm not so sure about your answer about "if people who died before Jesus went to heaven or hell," was really clear, because the Bible states that no one went to heaven before Jesus. The Bible is pretty clear that he was the first to go to heaven. Alot of people lived and died before Jesus was born and resurrected. So I'm not so sure your answer about animal sacrifices cleared things up.
Just a thought
Quote from: avonjax on October 24, 2008, 02:24:28 AM
Also Driven 1, I'm not so sure about your answer about "if people who died before Jesus went to heaven or hell," was really clear, because the Bible states that no one went to heaven before Jesus. The Bible is pretty clear that he was the first to go to heaven. Alot of people lived and died before Jesus was born and resurrected. So I'm not so sure your answer about animal sacrifices cleared things up.
Just a thought
How do you explain how the scriptures say that Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind to be with God?
QuoteIf you do believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, remember it is more a sin against oneself than many of the others, like murder and stealing, so it's much easier to give into those thoughts and feelings knowing you aren't hurting anyone but yourself.
insightful and correct.
QuoteAnd remember your lustful thoughts toward a woman who is not your wife, means according to Jesus, you have "committed adultry in your heart."
yep. i have sinned this way before many times unfortunately.
QuoteHe never made fun of or treated sinners with contempt but tried to help them.
You are right. I have been guilty of this in the past, but not so today - by God's grace.
QuoteBut I feel sure there were some who went back to their former behavior, because maybe it was in their DNA and they found it too difficult to fight.
even though you COULD be right and I MAY even agree with you, we are called to remember that our personal feelings and opinions (which are shaped by man's heart) are kind of irrelevant when held up to the light of God's truth.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 24, 2008, 01:23:04 AM
Can't have a bar near a church... HUH? Sorry folks isn't that where the church SHOULD BE located?
excellent point Ock!! astounding. we are to be IN the world, but not OF the world. i wish more could see it this way - as Jesus did.
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 23, 2008, 11:39:08 PM
DADT needs to go, I agree. We need to go back to actively discharging homosexuals.
Yeah, you totally missed my point smartass. Homosexuals are no different when they serve besied hetero and requiering to hide in secret pretty much is absolutely stupid. These high ranking officials and such that say it is wrong and can harm the overall morality of the armed forces by serving openly would hurt the forces and make us look weak. Oh yeah, it'd be a weak showing alright, please. The former Joint Chiefs of Staff, whatever his name is, is seriously stupid for the comments he said.
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 23, 2008, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: reednavy on October 23, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
It's just so funny the Amendment 2 is even ehre, when gay marriage is already outlawed in the State Constitution. This won't hurt gays as badly, IMO. I'm just relaly worried about seniors and people that live together domestically to save money or just have a companion around to help and such.
I'm just still baffled by how this became such an issue, when it should be a non-issue right away. Just watch, if DADT is repealed, which may happen with Obama, this could set the tone of things to come. I can honestly see down the road, these bannings being done away with by the Supreme Court, some day. I would love for DADT to be repealed, it is such a stupid law. Only the saltiest sailors and retired ones really like it. Most could care less, which is the new Navy now, the old just needs to go(except for traditions, them gotta stay)
DADT needs to go, I agree. We need to go back to actively discharging homosexuals.
Real smart there moron, yeah might as well discharge all the women too.
guys, while i agree that RSG's comment was way off mark, can you really find no other way to show this than base namecalling?
Yes, and the blacks, latinos, asians, etc.....
Quote from: Driven1 on October 24, 2008, 10:50:58 AM
guys, while i agree that RSG's comment was way off mark, can you really find no other way to show this than base namecalling?
mo⋅ron
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
Just calling as I see fit just as you all are. Youre not the one being attacked in this forum, you guys are doing all the judging and calling your self holy, and all of your opinions lack education and merit.
Please, refrain from name calling, it's not necessary to make your point in any discussion.
Quote from: The Compound on October 24, 2008, 10:57:01 AM
Quote from: Driven1 on October 24, 2008, 10:50:58 AM
guys, while i agree that RSG's comment was way off mark, can you really find no other way to show this than base namecalling?
mo⋅ron
1. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
Just calling as I see fit just as you all are. Youre not the one being attacked in this forum, you guys are doing all the judging and calling your self holy, and all of your opinions lack education and merit.
You have misspoke. I have judged no one and called no one a name. The only ones to have done that are you and reednavy. Do you not have a choice? Do you HAVE to use namecalling? Are we in 3rd grade?
Quote from: jbm32206 on October 24, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Please, refrain from name calling, it's not necessary to make your point in any discussion.
Im down to kiss and make up with both Driven and RSG, you in?
Wow!! thats sounds hot Compound. Can I watch?
I didn't call names...so I'll just watch the kissing and making up (http://oldtoolsforsale.com/smiley5/kiss13.gif)
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 24, 2008, 11:03:43 AM
Wow!! thats sounds hot Compound. Can I watch?
Only if you watch without lust, I think? Driven or RSG please correct me Im wrong?
Quote from: The Compound on October 24, 2008, 11:02:26 AM
Quote from: jbm32206 on October 24, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Please, refrain from name calling, it's not necessary to make your point in any discussion.
Im down to kiss and make up with both Driven and RSG, you in?
This appears to be a typical response when discussing the issue of homosexuality with homosexuals. I'm down with you just asking for forgiveness. :)
Well, then there's not much fun in that...
Quote from: Driven1 on October 24, 2008, 11:06:42 AM
Quote from: The Compound on October 24, 2008, 11:02:26 AM
Quote from: jbm32206 on October 24, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Please, refrain from name calling, it's not necessary to make your point in any discussion.
Im down to kiss and make up with both Driven and RSG, you in?
This appears to be a typical response when discussing the issue of homosexuality with homosexuals. I'm down with you just asking for forgiveness. :)
I didnt say anything to you to require forgiveness. I just wanted to give you a big kiss.
With tongue??
(http://oldtoolsforsale.com/smiley5/blush6.gif)Oh my!
(http://members.cox.net/dogmatix/Thread%20Hijacked.JPG)
OMG, is that guy with the gun about to force-ably rape the other guy.
THAT IS GAY
Good eye.
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 24, 2008, 11:13:37 AM
OMG, is that guy with the gun about to force-ably rape the other guy.
THAT IS GAY
my point exactly. ;)
Is a guy winking at another guy considered gay?
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 24, 2008, 11:15:54 AM
Is a guy winking at another guy considered gay?
If it is, then sarah palin winked at me once, that must make me straight.
Okay, I'm awake now... Got to drink my lunch - gee will I be forgiven? YES.
Here's my plan, We'll all meet at the corner of Myrtle and Moncrief Road at 1AM tomorrow morning for a group hug! If I fall asleep first, or am late to the hug, y'all just start without me.
JBM? Who's the guy with the video camera downtown? He's gonna love this one!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on October 24, 2008, 11:15:54 AM
Is a guy winking at another guy considered gay?
Forget winking. How about all that stuff that goes on in professional sports?
This is one of my favorite scenes - from my favorite sport:
Guy knocks in a crucial, game-changing home run. As he crosses home plate, he gives thanks to his god. Then he goes into the dugout for a round of congratulatory arse-patting.
Gay and godly all at once?
(snicker)
But in all seriousness, in reference to the title of this thread - one does not negate the other. When I was in college our College Choir did a lot of joint concerts with a church in Asheville - the Cathedral of All Souls. Gay-centric church. Finest, most decent, and friendlist bunch of people you'd ever meet. And that's saying something, on top of the normal Southern and Appalachian hospitality that's so thickly smattered up there anyway.
Ah Asheville. Totally got home-sick for that place in the Asheville thread that lakelander did recently. (sigh)