RE: Homosexual Marriage & Christianity?

[Driven1]

Do you honestly see homosexuality as being as serious a sin as adultery, lying and stealing? You must remember that not everybody in this country chooses to live according to the bible. I don't see why the bible's stance on homosexuality has anything to do with whether Gay marriage should be legal or not. This country was started on principles of religious freedom, it's laws should not have a basis in scripture.

Honestly, to answer your question, it doesn't matter one bit what I think or how I see things.  What matters is how God does.  My opinion is rubbish.  God instituted marriage as a covenant between one man and one woman.  If God institutes something like that, it is my job as His follower to make his truth known when man's ideas seek to corrupt it.  That's all.

[Ocklawaha]

Quote from: Driven1 on Today at 10:14:12 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on Today at 09:58:29 AM
Simply put the Old Testament condems homosexual acts as punishable by death. THAT was "By God". In Grace (after the cross) we are in a new age of forgiveness for ANY sin. As an example, I too "Know God", yet recently helped my daughters wedding planning business by arranging a beautiful Lesbian wedding on the beach. Yes, I was there, but as Christians, to throw the first stone... or be ugly would be just as much a sin.
So what are we to do? Love them as Christ loves them. It's the only way to be the "light of this world". Lights don't do DARK things. That's my view.

Ock...the New Testament clearly condemns homosexuality as well....just as it condemns adultery and lying and stealing.  All are clearly spelled out as sins.  While it is convenient to throw out parts of the Bible that do not fit with what is becoming popular culture in the United States in 2008, I don't think God will smile upon that.  Popular culture and opinion is CONSTANTLY changing.  But God's word does not. 

Those who choose a LIFE (meaning they live in it consistently and unrepentantly) of sin (a burglar, an adulterer, a homosexual) will clearly not inherit the kingdom of God. 

Harsh words, right?  Well, if anyone has a problem with this, you certainly do not have a problem with me - as I am called to love & respect those homosexuals that I know - and to love the guy who CONTINUALLY keeps breaking into and vandalizing one of my properties - and to love a friend of mine who CONTINUALLY lies to me and never shows up when he says he will or never keeps his obligations.  I am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them.  God will be the judge of all.  But I am also called to not back down from God's truth.

No.  If you have a problem with these words, you have a problem with a much higher authority than me.  You have a problem with the Truth.  With the Light.  "The Light came into the world and the world hated the Light and loved darkness."

But as Christians, to deny the truth of scripture...that is very dangerous.  And the whole reason the book of Galations was written...people were believing a "different gospel".  The Bible defines who God is.  To select out parts of the Bible and define God by that "newly created Bible" is to "create" a new "god" - to create an idol - a god who does not exist. 

Do you honestly see homosexuality as being as serious a sin as adultery, lying and stealing? You must remember that not everybody in this country chooses to live according to the bible. I don't see why the bible's stance on homosexuality has anything to do with whether Gay marriage should be legal or not. This country was started on principles of religious freedom, it's laws should not have a basis in scripture.

You rather answered your own questions of my statement of faith,

I am called to pray for all of these people in love and mercy and not to judge them.  God will be the judge of all.

Jesus lived and walked amoung many sinners and loved them all. However not all were forgiven, not all followed and many would later turn on him.

But I am also called to not back down from God's truth.

One does not have to back down from Gods truth by refraining from confrontation, and argument.
I Peter 3:15. I went to that wedding to support both my dauther and one of the girls being "married", I was there for them if they needed me. If God convicts them of sin, they won't run away from him, or a church on my account. Hopefully thy'll say, "Hey remember that guy that..."

As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".

My view...


OCKLAWAHA

[fightingosprey07]

As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".

My view...


OCKLAWAHA

I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)

[Driven1]

Ock, I think I stand with you on the vast majority of your post.  The only thing I think you may be forgetting is that we ARE actually called to "judge" (really it's not judge, but lovingly confront) one group of people:  fellow believers.  So - if someone calls themself a believer and does not live a life accordingly (example, is living a life of thievery or adultery or homosexuality), we are to confront them with God's truth.  If God is in them, they will be called to repentance.  If not, we are to "treat them as [an unbeliever]" to use Jesus's words (that is, to leave them and pray for them to be called to repentance).  

Matt 18: 15-18
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

But you are right - we are NOT to get confrontational and act angrily and judgmental (like those "Christians" who hold up the hate signs in protests, etc...) to those who are non-believers (as it is COMPLETELY NATURAL for them to do all things against God - just as it was for us before we came to Christ).  

[Driven1]

As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".

My view...


OCKLAWAHA

I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)

fighting,

good question.  the answer is what Ock alluded to earlier  - that Christians are now under a "New Convenant" (hence the name of the "New Testament").  it is not that the laws of the Old Testament were wrong - it is that every single one of those tedious OT laws were fulfilled by Jesus Christ.  He was the only one who fulfilled every law (crossed every "t" and dotted every "i"), through living a perfect, sinless life.  It was then the substitutionary punishment He received on the cross (death that we should have received) and His subsequent rising from the the burial grave 3 days later that gives life eternally to to those who are His children. 

Also, in doing all of this, he freed us from "the law of sin and death".  The law was good and perfect , but it was also admittedly IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law (who has even followed the TEN Commandments-  not one - we've all stolen SOMETHING or lied at least once).  The law was only instituted by God to show how IMPOSSIBLE it is for man to be holy - only One is holy.  We are now no longer (according to the NT) under law, but under grace (as Ock said), but grace is not a license to sin (see previous post).  The book of Romans spells out quite clearly the fate of those who treat grace as a license.

By the way, if you are interested in the relationship of the OT to the NT, the best book by far is the book of Hebrews in your Bible.

Hope that makes sense and/or answered your question.

[rachel9795]

It is important to not say that "God" does a certain thing and that "God" did this or "God" did that.  God is different in every religion.  For one to take credit and say that their God is better than another is unfair.  No one knows for sure...so don't act like it.  The bible was written by a person that you have never met in a time that was very different from today.  I have no problem if someone wants to live their life according to how a book tells them to, but they should not say that that is how everyone should live their lives.  My "God" is different from yours, so don't take ownership and tell me what "God" believes.  

I agree that there are a lot of valuable lessons in the bible, but I would never ask a country to use a book (fiction or not) as a guideline on how to govern.  Not fair!

[Driven1]

Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)

Any breaking of God's instructions (no matter how we as humans may classify them as "minor" or "major") is willful disobedience to Him.  Think about it for a moment. The God of the universe.  Who created everything and everything in it.  The One who looks at the stars and says "go here" and they obey.  The One who creates mountains in a single word.  The One who says to the oceans, "you will only go this far" and they obey.  That same One gives us an instruction and we say, "No!".  No matter how trite we may consider His will, we have sinned against him if we disobey ("all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God").

[Driven1]

It is important to not say that "God" does a certain thing and that "God" did this or "God" did that.  God is different in every religion.  For one to take credit and say that their God is better than another is unfair.  No one knows for sure...so don't act like it.  The bible was written by a person that you have never met in a time that was very different from today.  I have no problem if someone wants to live their life according to how a book tells them to, but they should not say that that is how everyone should live their lives.  My "God" is different from yours, so don't take ownership and tell me what "God" believes.  

I agree that there are a lot of valuable lessons in the bible, but I would never ask a country to use a book (fiction or not) as a guideline on how to govern.  Not fair!

Rachel.  Welcome to the forums!  Glad to have you here.
Also, life is not fair.  God is, but life is not. 

[fightingosprey07]

As far as the size or type of sin, I really don't see where God grades it in the scripture. It appears to me that a sin, is a sin, is a sin... We have all sinned - so who will toss the first stone? True God says to the woman, "Go and sin no more". But you WON'T read that OCK said to the woman, "go and sin no more".

My view...


OCKLAWAHA

I was under the impression that the ten commandments were supposed to be more important than the other "rules" in the bible. For example, the O.T. gives guidelines for which foods can and cannot be eaten, but I don't know of any Christians who follow those guidelines. Is eating pork as serious a sin as killing someone? (I'm not trying to be divisive, I just really don't know.)

fighting,

good question.  the answer is what Ock alluded to earlier  - that Christians are now under a "New Convenant" (hence the name of the "New Testament").  it is not that the laws of the Old Testament were wrong - it is that every single one of those tedious OT laws were fulfilled by Jesus Christ.  He was the only one who fulfilled every law (crossed every "t" and dotted every "i"), through living a perfect, sinless life.  It was then the substitutionary punishment He received on the cross (death that we should have received) and His subsequent rising from the the burial grave 3 days later that gives life eternally to to those who are His children. 

Also, in doing all of this, he freed us from "the law of sin and death".  The law was good and perfect , but it was also admittedly IMPOSSIBLE to follow the law (who has even followed the TEN Commandments-  not one - we've all stolen SOMETHING or lied at least once).  The law was only instituted by God to show how IMPOSSIBLE it is for man to be holy - only One is holy.  We are now no longer (according to the NT) under law, but under grace (as Ock said), but grace is not a license to sin (see previous post).  The book of Romans spells out quite clearly the fate of those who treat grace as a license.

By the way, if you are interested in the relationship of the OT to the NT, the best book by far is the book of Hebrews in your Bible.

Hope that makes sense and/or answered your question.

Thanks Driven, you answered my question so well that I may ask you more in the future. When I ask my christian friends these questions they can't even come close to answering them. Here's another one for you: what happened to all of the people who died before Jesus was born? Did they all automatically go to heaven or hell?

[rachel9795]

I never said anything about life being fair......I just don't agree with you saying that your God is better or more superior than any other persons God.  I don't think people should go around preaching to people who don't even care about what they have to say.  Because you sound ridiculous to me.  Anything that is prejudice should be kept to yourself.  

Marraige is being noticed in this country for legal and tax purposes.  Does a sheet of paper say your married in your God's eyes?  So, it really has nothing to do with religion.  If two people want to get married for legal and tax purposes, I have no problem with that, even if they are of the same gender.  No one ever said that your God has to recognize it.  It would probably help the economy if more people were married!

[Shwaz]

" I don't reckon you have to go with women to be a good daddy to a boy. You been real square-dealin' with me. The Bible says two men ought not lay together. But I don't reckon the Good Lord would send anybody like you to Hades."

-Slingblade (Karl)

[fightingosprey07]

I never said anything about life being fair......I just don't agree with you saying that your God is better or more superior than any other persons God.  I don't think people should go around preaching to people who don't even care about what they have to say.  Because you sound ridiculous to me.  Anything that is prejudice should be kept to yourself.  

Marraige is being noticed in this country for legal and tax purposes.  Does a sheet of paper say your married in your God's eyes?  So, it really has nothing to do with religion.  If two people want to get married for legal and tax purposes, I have no problem with that, even if they are of the same gender.  No one ever said that your God has to recognize it.  It would probably help the economy if more people were married!

In Driven's defense, I did ask him to elaborate on the Christian point of view on this issue. He usually doesn't "preach" on too many issues.

As far as your opinion on gay marriage, I couldn't agree more.

[jacksonvilleconfidential]

" I don't reckon you have to go with women to be a good daddy to a boy. You been real square-dealin' with me. The Bible says two men ought not lay together. But I don't reckon the Good Lord would send anybody like you to Hades."

-Slingblade (Karl)

I think I love you Shwaz, in the gay way.

[Driven1]

Thanks Driven, you answered my question so well that I may ask you more in the future. When I ask my christian friends these questions they can't even come close to answering them. Here's another one for you: what happened to all of the people who died before Jesus was born? Did they all automatically go to heaven or hell?

Another good question.  One I have had before - and asked before myself (along with many, many others).  I'll give a short answer and a long answer.  Here they are...

The short answer to your question is that â€" like today â€" those who followed God went to heaven and those who did not, did not. 

God first reached back out to man through his relationship with the Jews.  Through his revelations to them, man again had a way to spend eternity with God.  By the way…there were many people who were not Jews and who God gave opportunity to become Jews and follow His laws and receive forgiveness.  Some of them did.  Many did not.  This is well-documented throughout the historical books of the OT. 


Followers of God before Christ followed the old covenant laws for forgiveness.  The way of salvation at that time was through obedience to the laws given by God through various prophets and people like Moses and Joshua.  In those laws a person was forgiven of their sins by making various sacrifices. 


The long answer...

Back then a lot of value was placed on animals that were used for meat. There wasn't all that much money floating around, not a lot in way of places to buy food, not very good ways to preserve food, and the animals were needed for survival. Bulls, sheep (meat and clothing=wool) goats,(meat and milk) rams, oxen, doves, grain, and more.

The people would sacrifice the very best of these animals and grain to God. Desiring and showing a great need for forgiveness. They would give up what was essentially their “daily bread” to God â€" in a sense saying, “We will trust YOU God for our daily bread”.  They showed respect, repentance and honor to God in this way. 

Often, the blood of these animals was offered too. Blood shows life.  No blood…no life. The blood shows total surrender plus the meat of the animals was to be placed on a sort of stone alter (like a cooking pit or table) and burned/cooked there. The people were not to eat the meat since it was offered to God and not used as food for themselves.

Also, as early as 550 BC (though the prophet Isaiah), the Jews came to believe in a coming Messiah (Jesus).  It is difficult to read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah (which it is well-documented was written 550 years before Christ was born) and then read the crucifixion of Jesus and NOT believe in what is written.

The blood was a forerunner of the blood that would shed by Jesus, when He was crucified for our forgiveness. Jesus gave His very best-His own life, His own blood, for our forgiveness. Jesus blood came about when the nails were driven into His hands and feet, when the thorns were smashed into His head, when He was whipped, and when a spear was thrust into His side. Jesus shed His blood for our forgiveness, much like the blood of the animals was shed for forgiveness.
Animal and grain sacrifice was no longer needed after Jesus sacrificed His holy self on our behalf on the cross.

[Shwaz]

I think I love you Shwaz, in the gay way

I'll be gay with you if this marriage proposal passes... I could use the tax break.

The people would sacrifice the very best of these animals and grain to God

I flushed one of my Beta fish yesterday... he did not pass in vein though. He died for the sins of my other Beta fish. They can now understand god's meaning for them and try to live in his image.. as well as pass judgement on messageboard's.