RE: Homosexual Marriage & Christianity?

[gradco2004]

The ideas of marriage under law, and marriage under God need to be separated. Marriage should not be left to states to decide if there are Federal benefits involved. I never understood this idea that marriage should be only between one man and one woman. Why not take the DIFFICULT task of keeping YOUR OWN marriage between one man and one woman? Is it so hard for you, that you must legally obligate your marriage to this standard? This concept of exclusion is the principle tenet of religion: "Because you look, act, or think differently, you are less than.” Because this is the mentality commanded by most organized religions (please note my intended exclusion of the word “god”) a compromise cannot be reached in the opponent’s mind. I cannot understand why, in the  progressive society that we claim to live in and uphold, we still trying to govern people’s lives based on our contempt of their lifestyle, or mandates of irrelevant manuscripts. If the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.

[Driven1]

If the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.

I am becoming active (just like you) in the civil affairs of the society that I live in.  You come with your intentions that are based on your lifestyle and I come with mine.  We each come with our own.  You have your own anthropologic reasons for believing the way that you do.  I have my reasons as well.  It should not really be of concern if my reasons are derived from my spiritual beliefs or from a tree I met once as a kid. 

That was a more 'secular' response to your post. 

Now, more personally, I do not want my children growing up in a society in which I see something as clearly violating nature and God's law as "legalized by the state".

[gradco2004]

And also...

The bible is NOT clear about homosexuality (as if that was the litmus test anyway)

A clear statement:
Man shalt not insert his penis into any bodily openings of another man. Nor shalt he marry another man.

An unclear statement:
Man shalt not lay with man as with woman (forgive the lack of direct quote)

That is NOT clear! I lay with man on my side, but I lay with women on my back. Who is to say that the position of your body in the bed is not what is meant?

Another example:
Man shalt not make his dog blue.

Do you mean I shalt not make my dog sad? Or I shalt not make my dog the color blue? Is it okay for woman to make the dog blue?

Basically, you read into it what you want.

It would be far less insulting to gays (and human logic) if you just say that you are prejudice toward gays and have no desire to let them freely run their lives. It would be far more honest and end the contradiction to the loving spirit of this god character people speak so highly of.

[gradco2004]

If the Christian God gave man the free will to chose if they want to follow him or not… then why are mere mortals taking it upon themselves to insert their choice to follow Christ onto other citizens? You are taking it upon yourself to revoke the free will God gave to everyone. In no way are gays asking you to approve of their marriage, they are asking you to not vote in opposition to a contract that would have no bearing on your own life.

I am becoming active (just like you) in the civil affairs of the society that I live in.  You come with your intentions that are based on your lifestyle and I come with mine.  We each come with our own.  You have your own anthropologic reasons for believing the way that you do.  I have my reasons as well.  It should not really be of concern if my reasons are derived from my spiritual beliefs or from a tree I met once as a kid. 

That was a more 'secular' response to your post. 

Now, more personally, I do not want my children growing up in a society in which I see something as clearly violating nature and God's law as "legalized by the state".

Okay, that's nice and all...

But

[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.

[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.

This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?

[Driven1]

actually, i think everyone here could agree that we have all had a pretty decent and civilized discussion.  right?

[gradco2004]

In this ONE case, yes.

[Driven1]

In this ONE case, yes.

i agree...i wish more of our discussions were more like this.  we obviously have a broad spectrum of views on this very controversial matter and we have been able to express them without getting down in the mud with namecalling and viciousness. 

[Driven1]

Okay, that's nice and all...

But

[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.

[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.

This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?

gradco...give me a little time on this one.  honestly, you've kind of gone over my head.  i'm going to have to take some time to read what you are saying and see if I can answer your questions.  btw - i do not "judge" you.  and i do think that if you choose to be gay (or didn't choose, or whatever...) that you SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple.  just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God. 

[shawnsoldit]

I find it so interesting that straight religious people are so concerned about who I love...wanna quote their religious text like it means something.  IF it means something, then please understand it means something to YOU...so it is very simple...don't get married to someone of your own sex or YOUR God will cast you into the fires of hell. Sounds smart to me.

Honestly the thought of "lying with a woman"....does nothing for me....been there done that for many years  to simply please those who told me I was going to hell. I was miserable, and dishonest to myself and the woman I was with..all I did was LIE/LYE with the woman...there was nothing of any value there.

Simply put, I am gay...I don't know why I am...I just am and when I love someone, and I'm not talking about the heterosexual "right" to go to the courthouse  or Vegas on the first day I meet someone and get married kinda love...I'm talking about truly loving someone,  then that IS God.   "God is Love".... (I think it even says it in the new testament...so I guess "God is Love"  applies if this is what you say you believe.)

I have not been "lying with" a man for the last 13 years.  I have been loving him, and supporting him and he is my best friend.  We just got back from California.  Yes, after 13 years,  we were legally married in the Beverly Hills Courthouse.  The ONLY thing that changed....is California is $150.00 richer....and I have a piece of paper that is a step closer to acknowlegement of "EQUAL RIGHTS" as a tax paying American--there are no  special rights wanted here.

Let me be clear, we are not look for straight people's approval, or a religious blessing on what we have. We are looking for our government to not treat us as second class citizens.   Did you know that there are still 1138 federal benefits that I and my Husband (in 5 states) do not receive...because the majority wish to vote yes on silly laws that block equal rights for all?  Probably not because you as a straight person are receiving them.

So go ahead, sit on your high horse with your religious book in your hand as you vote. And everytime you vote to pass laws that limit my civil rights, I want you to ask yourself " Am I a BETTER American than them and deserve special rights?  If the answer is yes...then...(aren't you special) and go ahead and vote away....

And for all of you that vote so that the minority may have EQUAL RIGHTS as tax paying Americans so that we may live with the dignity and respect. I say thank you.  

Vote NO on Prop 2 or at least READ the WHOLE PROPOSITION before you vote...it benefits NO ONE!)

[gradco2004]

Okay, that's nice and all...

But

[1] Laws (in America) should not be created due to one's religious contempt of a group of people.

[2] You are not basing your opinion of nature on fact. You may believe your explanation, but it is not fact.

This may be politically incorrect, but why should your basis for restricting marriage equality be seriously considered when the reasons are superfluous as to why restrictive laws are needed (i.e. safety, infringing on the rights of others, etc)?

gradco...give me a little time on this one.  honestly, you've kind of gone over my head.  i'm going to have to take some time to read what you are saying and see if I can answer your questions.  btw - i do not "judge" you.  and i do think that if you choose to be gay (or didn't choose, or whatever...) that you SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple.  just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God. 

Thank you for the reply.

I do not want to settle for just a civil union though. I want either marriage equality for all or none. I do not support separate-but-equal. God does not issue marriage licenses, so why does this continue to come up in SECULAR issues such as marriage? The ceremony is what should be governed by your religious convictions, not the legal matters IMO.

I mean, this goes beyond your ideology. This actually effects real people's lives. Many straight people take for granted the benefits automatically bestowed on them with just this little piece of paper. Gay people lose custody, and property, and money, and visitation rights, and life decision making, etc behind the religious convictions of others. It is a destructive & vicious cycle of elitism really.

"My bible (which you are not obligated to live by) has commanded me to deny you the privelages that I receive because I say so. Now I love you, but life is not fair & what's love got to do with it anyway? Please don't be upset with me, your problem is with my God (who you have never met or seek to meet or follow for that matter) as he commands all the steps in my life. Please take me seriously as I stomp on your future well-being. I will be praying for you."

[blizz01]

you SHOULD have the same legal civil rights (like writing a will, visiting a partner in the hospital) as a hetero couple.  just to be clear, the one thing we differ on is the marriage issue as I see that instituted by God.

AGREED

[RiversideGator]

i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it.  i respect them just the same as my other friends.  so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I? 

And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.

I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.

Yes.  There is no free will.  The thief or the tax cheat or the murderer bear no responsibility for their actions.  After all, their genes made them do it! 

[RiversideGator]

i have two friends who choose to be gay and that's it.  i respect them just the same as my other friends.  so - i prove your assertion wrong, don't I? 

And I have a few friends who chose to be black, a few chose to be asian, and (believe it or not) one or two of them even chose to be women! I would like to applaud your 2 friends for being able to choose to be gay. I mean gosh, the gays really love all the ridicule, stigma, and inability to marry. It really is such a wonderful life and easy decision.

I think im going to decide to be gay tomorrow for the Rocky Horror Picture Show at the Florida Theatre, and then Sunday Im going to decide to be straight for the Jags game. Its gonna be an awesome and fabulousssss weekend.

Exactly! and that's the problem, people still think that others make a choice, when it's not one

You cant choose your race but you can choose your behavior.  Sex acts are behavior.  Sorry but that argument doesnt hold water.

[RiversideGator]

It's just so funny the Amendment 2 is even ehre, when gay marriage is already outlawed in the State Constitution. This won't hurt gays as badly, IMO. I'm just relaly worried about seniors and people that live together domestically to save money or just have a companion around to help and such.

I'm just still baffled by how this became such an issue, when it should be a non-issue right away. Just watch, if DADT is repealed, which may happen with Obama, this could set the tone of things to come. I can honestly see down the road, these bannings being done away with by the Supreme Court, some day. I would love for DADT to be repealed, it is such a stupid law. Only the saltiest sailors and retired ones really like it. Most could care less, which is the new Navy now, the old just needs to go(except for traditions, them gotta stay)

DADT needs to go, I agree.  We need to go back to actively discharging homosexuals. 

[RiversideGator]

And also...

The bible is NOT clear about homosexuality (as if that was the litmus test anyway)

The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of homosexuality.  It is absolutely wrong, period. 

Homosexuals like to distort this in order to rationalize their behavior unfortunately.