Metro Jacksonville

Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

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As the debate wages on around the name of a local high school honoring a man with no historical relationship with the First Coast, Metro Jacksonville shares videos with two different perspectives on the life of the former Memphis, TN slave trader and founder of the KKK.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-oct-who-was-nathan-bedford-forrest

Thank you for posting this. This discussion needs to be had all around the city.

Didnt the daughters of the american revolution..without public input..vote to name it?...an obvious racist group back then..

All kind of Special Interest groups petition for and win the names of schools. It's what happens when the public doesn't go to meetings. If you look into the actual history of Forrest and his life though you see lots of change, and by the end he had a very progressive agenda for racial relationships. He moved with his times and changed with them as well. One of the largest fallacies that all these feels based "historians" make is that they judge people from hundreds of years ago with the rules and practices we have in place today. This is a critical thinking skill that is on middle school social studies curricula. By this same judgement people are passing on Forrest, every white (and even some black abolitionist) person from before 1950 is Racist by some form or another. How do you think they felt about homophobia? Or interracial marriage? More importantly there is overwhelmingly more positive messages coming out of Forrest's own hand in the form of letters, speeches, and journals than there are in the stacks of negative comments and lines of uneducated people who think they know history. There is as much proof for Forrest's racism as there is for Washington, Franklin, or my great great great great grandfather. Then again most people can't comprehend the fact that the Klan existed as a segmented organization in several different instances. They can't comprehend that in the beginnings they had noble intentions that careened out of control in the next decades or so. You look at the KKK in the 1960s and assume that's how it's always been.

So call me back when we're ready to start talking about real history. About the socio-economic reasons why people in the south who'd never even seen slaves were stirred to war. About not solely demonizing white europeans when teaching about slavery (a world wide problem practiced by almost all cultures that exists to this day). More importantly, try again when you're ready to actually try thinking in the shoes of the people who lived in these time periods, instead of sitting in your computer chair judging all those who came before you with your biased education.

Wow a reasoned thoughtful post. Thought I was on the wrong site.

polyneux, you appear to be well versed on the history of Forrest the man.  What was his relationship to Jacksonville and why was the school named after him of all people?

There are all kinds of schools, roads, and buildings, named after all sorts of people some of whom have no connection to Jacksonville.

I wasn't aware that it was a rule that if you name something after someone in Jacksonville that they have to be related to Jacksonville somehow.

What if Jacksonville or Florida didn't even exist as a city or state when the named person was around?

I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named (unless of course some extreme circumstance occurs, like the person goes on a shooting spree, but that's really why we wait till they're dead, isn't it...) What are we to do, rename schools every 50 to 75 years as our politics and moral systems continue to change?

It's as much a part of our history that we -named- the school, that the school exists. This to me is more important than necessarily the details of the person it is named for. Placing a monument is as monumental as  the person iconified.

Quote from: polyneux on October 25, 2013, 03:07:07 PM
I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named (unless of course some extreme circumstance occurs, like the person goes on a shooting spree, but that's really why we wait till they're dead, isn't it...)

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

QuoteFort Pillow Massacre, (April 12, 1864), in the American Civil War, Confederate slaughter of black Federal troops stationed at Fort Pillow, Tennessee. The action stemmed from Southern outrage at the North's use of black soldiers. From the beginning of hostilities, the Confederate leadership was faced with the question of whether to treat black soldiers captured in battle as slaves in insurrection or, as the Union insisted, as prisoners of war.

In what proved the ugliest racial incident of the war, Confederate forces under General Nathan B. Forrest captured Fort Pillow on April 12, 1864, and proceeded to kill all the black troops within; some were burned or buried alive. A Federal congressional investigating committee subsequently verified that more than 300 blacks, including women and children, had been slain after the fort surrendered. After the incident, black soldiers going into battle used the cry "Remember Fort Pillow!"

Does this count?

Quote from: polyneux on October 25, 2013, 03:07:07 PM
There are all kinds of schools, roads, and buildings, named after all sorts of people some of whom have no connection to Jacksonville.

I wasn't aware that it was a rule that if you name something after someone in Jacksonville that they have to be related to Jacksonville somehow.

What if Jacksonville or Florida didn't even exist as a city or state when the named person was around?

I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named (unless of course some extreme circumstance occurs, like the person goes on a shooting spree, but that's really why we wait till they're dead, isn't it...) What are we to do, rename schools every 50 to 75 years as our politics and moral systems continue to change?

It's as much a part of our history that we -named- the school, that the school exists. This to me is more important than necessarily the details of the person it is named for. Placing a monument is as monumental as  the person iconified.

Ummm. okay. So are you saying there is no historical connection?

Quote from: KenFSU on October 25, 2013, 03:19:36 PM

Quote from: polyneux on October 25, 2013, 03:07:07 PM
I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named (unless of course some extreme circumstance occurs, like the person goes on a shooting spree, but that's really why we wait till they're dead, isn't it...)

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

QuoteFort Pillow Massacre, (April 12, 1864), in the American Civil War, Confederate slaughter of black Federal troops stationed at Fort Pillow, Tennessee. The action stemmed from Southern outrage at the North's use of black soldiers. From the beginning of hostilities, the Confederate leadership was faced with the question of whether to treat black soldiers captured in battle as slaves in insurrection or, as the Union insisted, as prisoners of war.

In what proved the ugliest racial incident of the war, Confederate forces under General Nathan B. Forrest captured Fort Pillow on April 12, 1864, and proceeded to kill all the black troops within; some were burned or buried alive. A Federal congressional investigating committee subsequently verified that more than 300 blacks, including women and children, had been slain after the fort surrendered. After the incident, black soldiers going into battle used the cry "Remember Fort Pillow!"

Does this count?

Yes KenFSU this counts.   The takeaway from polyneux comment's to me boils down to a single comment in which they say "I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named".  Ya see the thing is that this is the opinion of one person, the poster.  Right now there are over 156,000 signatures that say the name should be changed along with a poll that also said 80% of the people of Jacksonville want the name change as well.  It would appear that in the opinion of most folks, up to 80% that the name needs to go. That is what really matters.  There are always those who would like to explain away the horrors of past brutality in the context of history as if any explanation can change what went horribly wrong.  In the case of Nathan Forrest, a lot of things went horribly wrong under his watch and at his command.  No statement no matter how eloquent gives us a reason to ignore that this man, in spite of whatever he did at the end of his life, was personally responsible for the enslavement of many and the brutal murder of many more.  Sorry but Nathan Forrest does not get a "historic" pass.  Enslavement is enslavement and murder is murder.  That's the sorry fact surrounding much of this mans life.  To even suggest that a evolving society with a better understanding about history should keep a public school named after someone responsible for so much horror and pain and not change it cause well, history and all, is nothing more than foolish rhetoric.  Changing the name is part of an evolution away from an imbalanced mindset that said you can enslave and murder hundreds, even thousand of people and still be honored. That mindset is really kind of sick. 

Public high schools named after people in Duval County:

Douglas Anderson-born in Jax
Duncan Fletcher-former Jax mayor
Andrew Jackson-namesake for COJ
Robert E. Lee-Confederate general
Terry Parker-deeded land for the school
Frank Peterson-?
William Raines-local principal
A Phillip Randolph-Jax resident
Jean Ribault-french explorer who settled Jax
Ed White-first American to walk in space, died in Apollo, no ties to Jax
Samuel Wolfson, local businessman
Edwin Stanton-Secretary of war under Lincoln, no ties to Jax

Take away the Forrest name, and you still have a local school named after a Conferate General (Lee) and one after a Union secretary of war (Stanton). Sounds like a fair trade off to me.

Quote from: stephendare on October 25, 2013, 04:41:12 PM

Quote from: bill on October 25, 2013, 02:43:05 PM
Wow a reasoned thoughtful post. Thought I was on the wrong site.

you are.

Stephen, you made me snort my coffee when I read this.  :)

The fact that Nathan Bedford Forrest had no connection to Jacksonville should settle this. The Civil War is over. The Union was preserved. Let that be the end of it.

In naming schools, it is best to name them for the area that they are in or near. Naming schools after some favored teacher or principal that no one remembers in 20 years is also a total waste. Keep it simple. At least with an area name, many will know approximately where the school is without future reference. Not to mention the real waste of all the signage being changed.

Quote from: CityLife on October 25, 2013, 03:52:08 PM
Public high schools named after people in Duval County:

Douglas Anderson-born in Jax
Duncan Fletcher-former Jax mayor
Andrew Jackson-namesake for COJ
Robert E. Lee-Confederate general
Terry Parker-deeded land for the school
Frank Peterson-?
William Raines-local principal
A Phillip Randolph-Jax resident
Jean Ribault-french explorer who settled Jax
Ed White-first American to walk in space, died in Apollo, no ties to Jax
Samuel Wolfson, local businessman
Edwin Stanton-Secretary of war under Lincoln, no ties to Jax

Take away the Forrest name, and you still have a local school named after a Conferate General (Lee) and one after a Union secretary of war (Stanton). Sounds like a fair trade off to me.

What about all the middle schools and elementary with Confederate names? Isnt there a StoneWall Jackson somewhere in Duval? I went to Jefferson Davis and my sister went to JEB Stuart not sure if there are any others.

^By all means feel free to do that research and share.

Clay County got it right when they named their public high schools:
Clay
Orange Park
Keystone Heights
Middleburg
Ridgeview
Fleming Island
OakLeaf

Quote from: thelakelander on October 25, 2013, 02:55:33 PM
polyneux, you appear to be well versed on the history of Forrest the man.  What was his relationship to Jacksonville and why was the school named after him of all people?

This whole effort is pure unadulterated bovine faecies. Lake perhaps the 'War of Yankee Aggression, is 'No es su área de especialización?'

Indeed there is a connection with Jacksonville and North Florida in general. The 4th Regiment, Florida Infantry (Confederate)
Was organized in the summer of 1861 at Jacksonville. During December 1863, it was consolidated with the 1st Florida Cavalry Regiment. In the final days of the campaign for Southern Tennessee we find this in the official records:

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Connection indeed!

Stephen, you are right about revisionist history, read any history book written before 1960 and tell me who is revising our history... hint...it isn't the south. Fact is 45 members of Forrest's scouts were all black men... nobody was watching scouts so lets not try and paint them as 'slaves forced into service.' Forrest offered emancipation to any slave who wanted to fight for the south and these were all volunteers. By the way, anyone want to talk about the slaves held by the north?

Black Confederates, why haven't we heard more about them? "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of the Blacks, both above and below the Mason-Dixon Line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910"---Ed Bearrs, National Park Service Historian

As has already been well stated, the Klan of today bears zero resemblance to any Klan of the 1860's. The south was under occupation, a federal 'Freedman's Bureau,' was given the task of taking plantation land and giving it to black families, but what ended up happening is the officers in charge tended to use the 'one acre for you and ten for me' formula.  'Carpet Bagging,' Yankees committing  numerous atrocities against defenseless southern widows or largely disarmed men. My 'would be' grandmother (related to Ethan Allen) was killed in such a way. This called for retaliation.

An example is what the 'Klan' did in Lake City:
After many incidents of armed Union soldiers using their weapons the ruling status as virtual battering rams the former southern troops (some from the 4th Florida) decided that the young widows should hold a dance for the victors. As the well-watered Federals came out of the building, they found their weapons were missing. Then in small groups they were marched off in the dark and subjected to a thorough butt kicking. The weapons it was said were loaded on a wagon and driven into a shallow lake were they were dumped. Legend? Back in the 1970's or 80's the department of natural resources drained the lake in a program to restore area lakes...guess what they found in the bottom?

These were the deeds of the original Klan, when other area's started building their own Klan things quickly went out of control. Nathan Bedford Forrest was instrumental in disbanding most of the early groups. A federal investigation failed to prove Forrest was ever officially a member. Don't you think that a government determined to punish white southerners wouldn't have jumped on the chance to nail him for his 'crimes?' As was stated, you cannot judge the common society of the 1860's by today's organizations and mores.

What of the so-called Fort Pillow Massacre? Yes, after a written notice to surrender, an offer that included Forrest's word that ALL prisoners would be treated as legitimate POWs. Even so, when the fort refused to surrender and backed by Federal gunboats on the river, it was still far from a massacre. When the atrocities of murder went rampant, Forrest took responsibility and ordered the troops to cease and desist.

Slave trader, no doubt. Not only that but a slave trainer including skills, language and culture far above that of the 90% of the south that didn't own slaves. So lets forget his changed nature after the war, the first southern leader (and millionaire) to address the Poll Bearers, forerunner of the NAACP, July 5, 1875:

QuoteLadies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)

So lets not remember the changed man, we won't celebrate his progressive accomplishments. Instead lets remember the Northern benevolence where it was illegal for a white person to marry a Black person or person with as little as 1/8th Negro blood, places like Oregon, Arizona, Indiana, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota and a few others in 1929.
Perhaps we should cut all ties with these states? How about Delaware that outlawed slavery in 1901? How about a cry about the wife of Union General and US president U.S. Grant, which owned slaves (Generals Lee and Stonewall Jackson stood against slavery). Forrest stood against secession. 

I'm certain the revisionists of the 2000's will win this, you needn't worry; with knowledge like one of the women closely associated with MJ who told me: "I don't know why we have a statue of Jackson, we should dress him in his Klan robes." So Forrest was named by the 'racist' United Daughters of the Confederacy? Maybe the Sons of Confederate Veterans influenced the Daughters? Ignorance is cheap, the UDC and SCV are actually historical societies of decedents of the Confederacy, they have libraries, books, scholarships, reenactors  (for State and National Parks and schools, historical talks, dinners, and are the official US Veterans Administration go-to source for Civil War graves, markers and color guards. Ennis Davis could easily be a member as could any other Black citizens that can trace his or her roots to the Confederacy. How can I suggest this? Because OCKLAWAHA is the former '2nd Lt. Commander of the James Hull Camp of the SCV.'

After Forrest we'll go after LEE, JACKSON (STONEWALL), KIRBY SMITH, JEB STUART, JEFFERSON (BY GOD) DAVIS... then we'll rename Kingsley Avenue in Orange Park (he was a slave trader), we'll demand the Kingsley Plantation be renamed something less 'hurtful' like, 'Cool old white house in a salt marsh island.' You know the one Stephen, the one you've spent so many hours documenting Kingsley's slave and property holdings. Zephaniah Kingsley had a strange relationship with his slave force. He could speak an African language and worked his slaves under a "task system" which meant that once the daily work was done, slaves were free to take care of their own business, like tending their own gardens, going fishing, or taking care of their cabins. If a slave produced crafts or vegetables he was free to sell them and keep the profits.

Laurel Grove Plantation, Good Fortune Plantation, The San Jose, The Ashley, San Diego, Capuaca, Santa Barbara, Mala Compra, Bella Vista, Buena Suerte, Black Creek Estate, Duck Pond Island, Cedar Point Creek, Clapboard Creek, Dames Point,Crosses Point, Mayport, Charlotta, Pablo River, Hester's Bluff, Forbes Bluff, Shipbuilding Island, New Castle Plantation, Reddy's Point and Hampstead Plantations, Cowfoard Ferry, Pottsburgh Plantation, Thornton Tract, Cecilton Plantation, The Hermitage, Orange Bluff, Christianbourg Plantation, Goodby's Creek, Beauclerc Bluff Plantation, Suttonia Plantation, Julianton Plantation, Sweetwater Branch, Julington Creek, Maxton Island, Padamaran Estate, Upper and Lower Crisp, Spring Garden,Tobacco Bluff, Little Florence Cove, Cypress Grove Plantation, Hope Plantation, Six Mile Creek, Don Huertas, Hunt Plantation, Observation, Creek, Denys Rolle Plantation, New Switzerland... and a few dozen more, lots of names to change. Oh my God, I live on the plantation of DON ANTONIO HUERTAS, his house was on the high sand mound... um... this describes where my house sits! Lets riot, we could  go gangster touchy feely. Lots of names to change!

Let the fireworks began, 'Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead' (Oops it was a Yankee that said that!)

Gee I feel better already.

DEO VINDICE
Ocklawaha, (Robert Mann)
2nd Lt. Commander SCV retired
Christian, Family Man, Southron, American... in that order.

Was NBF ever charged or convicted of a crime?  Isn't this the USA where a man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not in the court of public opinion? 

Did philanthropist Louis Wolfson use his brother's name (Samuel) to buy redemption for his conviction of federal crimes by plastering the Wolfson name all over Jacksonville?  What, he couldn't use his own name?  Where does it stop?  :o

Anyone really interested in the fate of NBF High School or any other Duval county school should run, not walk, to join a mentoring organization such as Take Stock In Children.  I did it for 6 years and am trying to figure out a schedule to mentor at my own alma mater.  It takes about 2 hours per week during school hours.

Proud Member of NBF Class of 76

QuoteWas NBF ever charged or convicted of a crime?  Isn't this the USA where a man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not in the court of public opinion?

It doesn't sound like anyone is trying to arrest anyone. There's just an effort to change the name of a building.  It happens and has happened repeatedly over our history. Just look at our streets. Beaver was once Enterprise, Houston was Ward Street and Main was Pine.  All of many of those numbered streets on the Northside were named after various people at one point as well.  Or pull up the sanborns and read the names of buildings that have been torn down. 

The way I view it, it does make Jax see like a backwards place to outsiders (all those petition signatures and media coverage from around the country as proof) but that doesn't mean we have to really care locally.  If the majority of the community believes the name should stay, so be it. If the majority of the community feels different, then find another name and move on.  Nobody is revising history books here.  Forrest will still be in them.

As for organizations such as Take Stock in Children, people should volunteer in they have a passion for.  However, that really has nothing to do with changing the name of a building.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 25, 2013, 11:59:08 PM
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Connection indeed!

That's a pretty weak link.  That's like saying I have a family member from Grand Rapids, MI and I send for them to come down to Florida for a few months to help me pay some bills. 

All of the energy spent arguing over the name of a high school is baffling.  And it sure seems that there is a significant racial undertone to much of the opposition to the name change.  Given the continuing race relations challenges that our city still faces, changing the name of a school seems like a simple conciliatory gesture to promote unity. Changing the name of a school will not change history or anyone's heritage.  Let's mend fences and move forward together.

The best way to repeat history is to remove its existance from our national conscience.  Stew on that for a few minutes.

"Assholery".... :)

I do admire your wordsmithing sometimes.

Why don't we just rename it "Robert Byrd High School"?  As someone here has said in the past:

QuoteYes I admire people who can admit the error of their ways and work as hard as Byrd did to mend them.  You know Bill, the world would be a better place if a few more old racists burned their Klan robes.

Maybe if Forrest had done something like than then.................Oh, wait a minute

Quote from: thelakelander on October 26, 2013, 07:36:58 AM

QuoteWas NBF ever charged or convicted of a crime?  Isn't this the USA where a man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not in the court of public opinion?

It doesn't sound like anyone is trying to arrest anyone. There's just an effort to change the name of a building.  It happens and has happened repeatedly over our history. Just look at our streets. Beaver was once Enterprise, Houston was Ward Street and Main was Pine.  All of many of those numbered streets on the Northside were named after various people at one point as well.  Or pull up the sanborns and read the names of buildings that have been torn down. 

The way I view it, it does make Jax see like a backwards place to outsiders (all those petition signatures and media coverage from around the country as proof) but that doesn't mean we have to really care locally.  If the majority of the community believes the name should stay, so be it. If the majority of the community feels different, then find another name and move on.  Nobody is revising history books here.  Forrest will still be in them.

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 26, 2013, 07:43:03 AM
That's a pretty weak link.  That's like saying I have a family member from Grand Rapids, MI and I send for them to come down to Florida for a few months to help me pay some bills.

Not at all, the 4Th Florida was mustered into Confederate service on Bay Street, in Jacksonville. Your comment is by no means inane, but typical of the common misunderstanding of military service. The FACT that the 4th spent some miserable days attempting to stem a tidal wave with General Forrest is quite common. At the end of the war, in the final major battle, General Joseph E. Johnston's Confederate 'Army' consisted of: Bates Division, which included the: 1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th Florida, 1st Florida Cavalry (dismounted - there were no more serviceable horses) and the 4th Florida. Note that now they were no longer part of General Forrest's Cavalry.

Three more examples to demonstrate that armies EVERYWHERE are mobile and fluid, exchanging divisions, brigades, regiments, battalions, batteries and companies as the need arises or ebbs. There is no such thing as an Army that doesn't constantly morph, thus our own 4th Florida is every bit as much 'Forrest's Army' as any other unit under his command.

Transfer of Australian units from Africa to New Guinea:

QuoteIn the battle for the defense of Australia in WWII we find; British Prime Minister Winston Churchill feared that the removal of Australian units from North Africa would seriously damage an already weakened front.5 Ultimately most of the Australian divisions were released, but at first only the 7th Division and one brigade of the 6th were returned. As a belated recognition to Australia's vulnerability, two U.S. Army divisions were sent. The 41st and 32nd Divisions, ill prepared for warfare in New Guinea, had arrived by May. The protracted battle for Buna reduced the effectiveness of the 32nd so much that in January 1943 it was ordered back to Australia, where the bulk of reinforcements received in early 1943 would be used to replace those lost.

SYNOPSIS: Amazon, MacArthur Strikes Back and The War in the Pacific.
http://www.amazon.com/MacArthurs-Victory-Guinea-1943-1944-ebook/dp/B0012D1DBO

Sudden transfer of the Ichiki-Shitai Special Landing Force at Guadalcanal:

QuoteIchiki-Shitai has been the unlucky unit. They and 8TAS turned back from Midway Operations because of the "Great Victory" of the Navy. How great and empty the victory was! Only 6 hours after departing Guam, we were ordered to return home, the to Guadalcanal. The over-aged and slow transports for use of going back home, were rushed to the most dangerous sea area of the Solomons with no AA guns. The 1st echelon should not be blamed for a failure in carrying out their duty. The upper levels of the Army or the Imperial HQ should be blamed for their wishful thinking.
http://www.nettally.com/jrube/genjirou/genjirou.htm

Key Word? INTERCHANGEABLY

QuoteOf the Negro units in the Ardennes during the German counteroffensive of December 1944, one field artillery group and three field artillery battalions participated fully. The 3334 Field Artillery Group, the Negro headquarters and headquarters battery present, landed in France on 29 June with the VIII Corps Artillery. The VIII Corps Artillery used the 3334 Group and Negro battalions interchangeably with white units as needs arose.
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/11-4/chapter21.htm

Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2013, 09:50:49 AM

Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2013, 12:02:03 AM
we should go after those names.  They were simply named for the new all white high schools in order to defy Brown v Board of Education.  This is no way to honor the southern dead.

Its an interesting point, except that it isn't our history.

And other than commemorating the impulses of the Pork Chop Gang mentality that got our schools dis accredited it doesnt really say anything about us as a city.

I think its just as dangerous to allow later revisionists to strip historical characters of their complexity and reduce them to caricatures of ignorant racists assholery for the benefit of a political movement in the 1950s and 60s.

As I've demonstrated, this history is as much ours as is anything in Memphis.

That the United Daughters of the Confederacy has or had anything to do with the 'pork chop mentality', ditto the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the Revolution, the DAV, American Legion, Fleet Reserve or the Sons & Daughters of World War II Veterans Hereditary Society, is simply ludicrous. Your knowledge of the history that I and many others lived through in 1957-65 seems tainted by a thick coating of 'revisionist history' that didn't exist in those years. Here's a note from our President during those amazing years that clearly spells out why Forrest and any other school was named for Southern or Northern leaders during the war:

QuoteBy the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
The years 1961 to 1965 will mark the one-hundredth anniversary of the American Civil War.

That war was America's most tragic experience...etc.
...Military history records nothing finer than the courage and spirit displayed at such battles as Chickamauga (Forrest with the 5th Arkansas opened the attack - with my great grandfather - OCK), Antietam, Kennesaw Mountain (By now Due to the appalling losses suffered by Govan's Brigade during the Atlanta Campaign, the 1st/15th, 5th/13th and 2nd/24th Arkansas Regiments were consolidated into one regiment, which was commanded by Colonel Peter Green of the 5th/13th (specifically of the 5th - OCK).  and Gettysburg. That America could produce men so valiant and so enduring is a matter for deep and abiding pride.

The same spirit on the part of the people at home supported and strengthened those soldiers through four years of great trial. That a Nation which contained hardly more than thirty million people, North and South together, could sustain six hundred thousand deaths without faltering is a lasting testimonial to something unconquerable in the American spirit. And that a transcending sense of unity and larger common purpose could, in the end, cause the men and women who had suffered so greatly to close ranks once the contest ended and to go on together to build a greater, freer, and happier America must be a source of inspiration as long as our country may last.

By a joint resolution approved on September 7, 1957 (71 Stat. 626), the Congress established the Civil War Centennial Commission to prepare plans and programs for the nationwide observances of the one-hundredth anniversary of the Civil War, and requested the President to issue proclamations inviting the people of the United States to participate in those observances.

Now, Therefore, I, Dwight D. Eisenhower, President of the United States of America, do hereby invite all of the people of our country to take a direct and active part in the Centennial of the Civil War.

I request all units and agencies of government--Federal, State, and local--and their officials to encourage, foster, and participate in Centennial observances. And I especially urge our Nation's schools and colleges, its libraries and museums, its churches and religious bodies, its civic, service, and patriotic organizations, its learned and professional societies, its arts, sciences, and industries, and its informational media, to plan and carry out their own appropriate Centennial observances during the years 1961 to 1965; all to the end of enriching our knowledge and appreciation of this momentous chapter in our Nation's history and of making this memorable period truly a Centennial for all Americans.
DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER
Read more at the American Presidency Project: Dwight D. Eisenhower: Proclamation 3382 - Civil War Centennial http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=12029#ixzz2iskxTQbI

DWIGHT was hardly part of the 'pork chop gang' or their mentality.

Quote"...dangerous to allow later revisionists to strip historical characters of their complexity and reduce them to caricatures of ignorant racists  assholery for the benefit of a political movement in the 1950s and 60s."

The 'revisionism' you refer to most certainly exists, Lincoln is a god, the South fought because it HATED Blacks (pretty absurd on the face of it), Northern Armies were here to liberate slaves. Myself or any other student of the period can name chapter and verse all day long of how wrong those new perceptions are. Simply read ANY book on the subject written before 1920 when Clarke and Tyler took charge of the KKK and membership exploded from 3,000 to over 100,000.

JUST TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD IS REVISIONISM:
One line from the Official Records which I find telling is an account from Pensacola were a Federal Commander wrote (paraphrased) "Last night several contraband came into our camp supposing we are here to grant them freedom, I had then whipped and taught them to the contrary, we returned them to the Confederates under a flag of truce this morning."

What is the meaning of Contraband?

con·tra·band noun \ˈkän-trə-ˌband\
: things that are brought into or out of a country illegally

Full Definition of CONTRABAND

1
:  illegal or prohibited traffic in goods :  smuggling
2
:  goods or merchandise whose importation, exportation, or possession is forbidden; also :  smuggled goods
3
:  a slave who during the American Civil War escaped to or was brought within the Union lines.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contraband

It should also be remembered this same (humanitarian) Northern Army is the Army (and president Lincoln) that waged a war of extermination on the American Indians. So much so that they recruited Confederate POW's offering freedom for assisting with that dark task. These recruits were called 'Galvanized Confederates.'

Lastly there are no calls to erase Lincoln's name from schools or monuments, as recently as Nov. 2012 a new historical drama film directed and co-produced by Steven Spielberg heaps worshipful praise on the deceased president.

(for those who care for the international research and read)

QuoteAbraham Lincoln 'wanted to deport slaves' to new colonies

Abraham Lincoln wanted to ship freed black slaves away from the US to British colonies in the Caribbean even in the final months of his life, it has emerged.

It was the act of compassion that seemed to epitomise the decency of Abraham Lincoln.

Abraham Lincoln is frequently voted America's greatest President due to his stance on slavery.

A new book on the celebrated US president and hero of the anti-slavery movement, who was born 202 years ago on Saturday, argues that he went on supporting the highly controversial policy of colonization.

It was favoured by US politicians who did not believe free black people should live among white Americans, and had been backed by prominent abolitionists like Henry Clay as far back as 1816.

Mr Lincoln also favoured the idea. But he was believed to have denounced it after signing the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed of most of America's four million slaves, in January 1863.

The notion that he came to regard it as unacceptable contributed to the legend of the 16th president, who is frequently voted America's greatest, and is held by some to have left an impeccable record.

Yet Phillip Magness and Sebastian Page, the authors of Colonisation After Emancipation, discovered documents in the National Archives in Kew and in the US that will significantly alter his legacy.

They found an order from Mr Lincoln in June 1863 authorising a British colonial agent, John Hodge, to recruit freed slaves to be sent to colonies in what are now the countries of Guyana and Belize.

"Hodge reported back to a British minister that Lincoln said it was his 'honest desire' that this emigration went ahead," said Mr Page, a historian at Oxford University.

The plan came despite an earlier test shipment of about 450 freed slaves to Haiti resulting in disaster. The former slaves were struck by smallpox and starvation, and survivors had to be rescued.

Mr Lincoln also considered sending freed slaves to what is now Panama, to construct a canal — decades before work began on the modern canal there in 1904.

The colonisation plan collapsed by 1864. The British were fearful the confederate states of the American south may win the civil war, reverse emancipation, and regard British agents as thieves. Congress also voted to remove funding.

Yet as late as that autumn, a letter sent to the president by his attorney-general showed he was still actively exploring whether the policy could be implemented, Mr Page said.

"It says 'further to your question, yes, I think you can still pursue this policy of colonisation even though the money has been taken away'," he said.

Mr Lincoln was assassinated in April 1865.

Dr Magness said the book would change readers' views of Mr Lincoln. Amid sharp political division, he is repeatedly championed by modern-day politicians, including Barack Obama, as a great unifier.

"Looking back from modern perspectives, we see colonisation as a very bigoted idea," said Dr Magness, of the American University in Washington.

"So it's a tough issue to integrate in to Lincoln's story.

"It's a tough racial issue, and it raises a lot of emotional issues. It doesn't mesh well with the emancipation legacy, and it doesn't mesh well with Lincoln's image as an iconic figure."
published by the Telegraph Media Group: The Daily
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html

Quote from: kbhanson3 on October 26, 2013, 08:08:23 AM
All of the energy spent arguing over the name of a high school is baffling.  ...  Given the continuing race relations challenges that our city still faces, changing the name of a school seems like a simple conciliatory gesture to promote unity. Changing the name of a school will not change history or anyone's heritage.  Let's mend fences and move forward together.

Have to agree with this. It's the name of a school and it isn't THAT big a deal. Having said that, the natural reaction is "well then why change it?" Because when all is said and done, despite the complicated nature of Forrest the historical figure, he was still the first leader of the KKK and there is no amount of backtracking or explanation to make that sound positive. Old friends who have moved away chuckle when they hear about this and say "only Jacksonville," and new friends from out of town are incredulous when they hear about it and ask "Why don't they just change the name?"

And as I've said, I'm a born-and-bred Jacksonvillian and 100% southerner. But as for Forrest? Put up a statue of him in a park or something. But surely there's a better name for the school.

It is literally almost only happening in Jacksonville. All other schools named for him, save one in his home town of Chapel Hill Tenn, have been renamed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest_High_School

Even Memphis renamed the park that currently holds his remains...

QuoteKlan Protests in Memphis Over Renaming of Three Parks

MEMPHIS — The Ku Klux Klan rallied in Memphis on Saturday to protest the City Council's decision last month to rename three city parks that honored Confederate troops...

....The old names were Confederate Park; Jefferson Davis Park, named for the Confederacy's president; and Nathan Bedford Forrest Park, named for a Confederate lieutenant general and the Klan's first grand wizard. The new names are Memphis Park, Mississippi River Park and Health Sciences Park, but the council may change those, too.

The last time the Klan rallied in Memphis, in 1998, fighting broke out between members and counterprotesters, and the police fired tear gas to disperse the crowd. They arrested 20 people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/us/klan-protests-renaming-of-3-confederate-parks-in-memphis.html?_r=0

Quote from: Bativac on October 27, 2013, 05:30:05 PMBut as for Forrest? Put up a statue of him in a park or something. But surely there's a better name for the school.

Luckily, there's no need for Jacksonville to do this. He already has a statue in the Memphis park that was named after him until that city decided to rename it earlier this year.  In response, the KKK has filed a lawsuit.

QuoteMayor A. C. Wharton said reaching a compromise would be difficult. He angered Confederate groups last week by proposing that a statue of Ulysses S. Grant be erected to create balance and honor the Union troops.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/us/memphis-drops-confederate-names-from-parks-sowing-new-battles.html

Quote from: Meme0214 on October 26, 2013, 04:51:15 AM
Was NBF ever charged or convicted of a crime?  Isn't this the USA where a man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not in the court of public opinion? 

Fort Pillow took place 6 months prior to the adoption of the First Geneva Convention...so I don't think there were any legal standards to charge people for war crimes at that time.

There are plenty of public figures in history that weren't charged with crimes and aren't worthy of being celebrated...so that's really kind of a worthless point anyways.

I'm not gonna get into the whole "Forrest name change" debate, but I will say this much; It seems like Southern named buildings, streets etc, that have controversial connotations for whatever reason (racial etc) are quickly denounced, while the Northern counterparts are completely let off the hook, and in some cases it would be blasphemous if anyone speaks out against.

Look at Tom Yawkey, who was a Boston Red Sox executive. He was known for being a racist by many (Jackie Robinson among others) and the Red Sox was the last team to have a black player. What do the ball club do? Name a street in his honor Yawkey Way, right by Fenway Park in one of the most liberal states today. No one says a peek. There are plenty of other examples too. So I'll try to get this through my head; Southern 'accused' racist = bad, Northern 'accused' racist = tolerable, okay...   

^I don't think so. Haydon Burns was a racist too and Isiah Hart was a plantation owner with 48 slaves. No one is talking about renaming the Haydon Burns Library or Hart Bridge.

Let's not group "Nathan Bedford Forrest" into the general term of "Southern".  The controversy surrounding this has little to do with South vs North, West or East and more to do with the acts of the guy in question and reason why the place was named after him locally.

I've heard it said that Andrew Jackson never set foot in Jacksonville (I've not verified that).

Is the reason for renaming this school because there's no ties to him in Jacksonville? By that logic we should rename Jax, and anything in town with "Washington" no?

Quote from: Bativac lik=topic=19931.msg351807#msg351807 date=1382909405


And as I've said, I'm a born-and-bred Jacksonvillian and 100% southerner.

Sounds to me like this gentleman is a bit closer to a "galvanized" Yankee to me, y'all.

^Sorry Ock, but it's a bit too convenient to paint all the opposition as not being "true Southerners". If "true Southerners" means "people who agree with Ocklawaha on this issue", there's going to be a continually decreasing stock of them.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 28, 2013, 11:45:20 AM

Quote from: Bativac lik=topic=19931.msg351807#msg351807 date=1382909405


And as I've said, I'm a born-and-bred Jacksonvillian and 100% southerner.

Sounds to me like this gentleman is a bit closer to a "galvanized" Yankee to me, y'all.

It's all a LIE! Everyone knows that people from Jacksonville are JAXONs, not "Jacksonvillians!" Grab your pitchforks boys!

Quote from: coredumped on October 28, 2013, 11:23:25 AM
I've heard it said that Andrew Jackson never set foot in Jacksonville (I've not verified that).

Is the reason for renaming this school because there's no ties to him in Jacksonville? By that logic we should rename Jax, and anything in town with "Washington" no?

No, that's the reaction to the response of those like Ock who claim it's "our" history.  The school was not named after Forrest because of our region's history.  It was done in the height of the Civil Rights era as a show of disrespect to the idea of equal rights for all races and desegregation. In other words, the only thing we're honoring is an act of supreme local ignorance and elitism by a small group of Jaxons in the 1950s.

You are correct, however, he was the military Governor of Florida at the time. Jacksonville Fl has the distinction of being the only city/town to be named after the man before he became President in 1828. No, he didnt come here, but he certainly did have an impact on the region.

Quote from: coredumped on October 28, 2013, 11:23:25 AM
I've heard it said that Andrew Jackson never set foot in Jacksonville (I've not verified that).

Is the reason for renaming this school because there's no ties to him in Jacksonville? By that logic we should rename Jax, and anything in town with "Washington" no?

The Red Sox paid for this with 30 years of futility. Also, nobody is suggesting we rename Bay Street Yawkee Way, though a large number of local neighborhoods were built, or named for the much maligned northern yankees. Riverside, for example, was largley developed by Massachusetts native John Forbes.

Also, by giving your opinion, you are defacto "getting into the whole" discussion.

(

Quote from: I-10east on October 28, 2013, 12:44:01 AM
I'm not gonna get into the whole "Forrest name change" debate, but I will say this much; It seems like Southern named buildings, streets etc, that have controversial connotations for whatever reason (racial etc) are quickly denounced, while the Northern counterparts are completely let off the hook, and in some cases it would be blasphemous if anyone speaks out against.

Look at Tom Yawkey, who was a Boston Red Sox executive. He was known for being a racist by many (Jackie Robinson among others) and the Red Sox was the last team to have a black player. What do the ball club do? Name a street in his honor Yawkey Way, right by Fenway Park in one of the most liberal states today. No one says a peek. There are plenty of other examples too. So I'll try to get this through my head; Southern 'accused' racist = bad, Northern 'accused' racist = tolerable, okay...   

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 28, 2013, 08:45:05 PM
Also, by giving your opinion, you are defacto "getting into the whole" discussion.

Blah blah blah, be that obligatory 'overly protective and sensitive of my hometown' guy; You're like a dime a dozen around here....Too bad the truth hurts....

What's the truth that hurts?

^^^Tom Yawkey was a racist as I said earlier, and Demo had to stick up for his beloved city, Boston. I have the reputation of being overly-defensive of Jax; I admittedly use to be that way, but now I try to refrain from doing that; The only exception is when I think someone is treating Jax unfairly.

Everytime that I make ONE critique about ANY city outside of Jax, someone ALWAYS come to it's defense, no matter what! Just like a knight in shining armor or something. It's cool to say WHATEVER about Jax though.... *sigh*   

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 26, 2013, 11:24:36 PM

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Noone is suggesting that we forget our history.  History is not static.  It is a constantly unfolding story.  Changing the school's name would simply be the next chapter in the history of NBF.  Personally, I hope we never forget the story of people like NBF and how we as a society have become more enlightened and constantly strive to move beyond intolerance, oppression and racism. Changing the name of the school, and the reasons for making the change, would be something remembered by generations to come.  So rest assured that history would not be forgotten.

Quote from: I-10east on October 28, 2013, 10:25:36 PM
^^^Tom Yawkey was a racist as I said earlier, and Demo had to stick up for his beloved city, Boston. I have the reputation of being overly-defensive of Jax; I admittedly use to be that way, but now I try to refrain from doing that; The only exception is when I think someone is treating Jax unfairly.

Everytime that I make ONE critique about ANY city outside of Jax, someone ALWAYS come to it's defense, no matter what! Just like a knight in shining armor or something. It's cool to say WHATEVER about Jax though.... *sigh*

I didnt stick up for Boston. I said that Yawkey being a racist retarded the RedSox ability to compete in baseball. Furthermore, while I do love that city, they have a pretty horrendous reputation as a racist city, including being where bussing started, and furthermore, I love Jax. I dont love some of the backwards bullshit, like trying to justify the continued name of a predominantly black school after the first grand-wizard of the KKK through manipulation of history, but Jax is a pretty awesome city in most ways. I dare you to try to find me a city without its warts.

To your point (I think) the whole discussion is pretty silly. I think for me the issue is, there are so many people that deserve to be memorialized that are local, or even national heros. In 50 years, I would prefer the random kid get curious about who Scott Speicher was, or maybe who John Delaney, or who Hans Tanzler were. Each of these people have blemishes, and maybe History will decided each was a bad person for one reason or another, but they are all people who can be held up as pillars of the Jax community today.

NBF was a man of his times. He was a proud southerner, a noteworthy tactician, and he probably acted in a manner he though befitted a man of his times. Im not saying he needs to be struck from the history books, or even necessarily looked down upon historically, but he has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on October 29, 2013, 09:21:22 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 26, 2013, 11:24:36 PM

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Noone is suggesting that we forget our history.  History is not static.  It is a constantly unfolding story.  Changing the school's name would simply be the next chapter in the history of NBF.  Personally, I hope we never forget the story of people like NBF and how we as a society have become more enlightened and constantly strive to move beyond intolerance, oppression and racism. Changing the name of the school, and the reasons for making the change, would be something remembered by generations to come.  So rest assured that history would not be forgotten.

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 29, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
He has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

Well said, completely agree.

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 29, 2013, 10:28:57 AM
I didnt stick up for Boston. I said that Yawkey being a racist retarded the RedSox ability to compete in baseball. Furthermore, while I do love that city, they have a pretty horrendous reputation as a racist city, including being where bussing started, and furthermore, I love Jax. I dont love some of the backwards bullshit, like trying to justify the continued name of a predominantly black school after the first grand-wizard of the KKK through manipulation of history, but Jax is a pretty awesome city in most ways. I dare you to try to find me a city without its warts.

My bad Demo. I thought that you were an apologist first and obviously you're not, sorry that I misunderstood you. You sound reasonable. I thought that my examples of controversial names was comparable though; Street names have been changed for similar reasons.

This Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

Quote from: I-10east on October 29, 2013, 11:51:22 AM
If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

I might be in the minority (or maybe not?), but I wouldn't mind seeing Confederate Park receive a new name. I get the history, but it still strikes me as needlessly offensive to Jacksonville's quarter-million black residents.

^Of course it's offensive.  It was also meant to be offensive in 1959.  It's kind of crazy that people want to preserve such an offense as preserving our history.

Quote from: I-10east on October 29, 2013, 11:51:22 AMThis Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

My outlook is kind of different.  This debate has gone on for decades.  Way before the term PC popped up on the screen. As our local population becomes more diverse, the name will eventually change. It's really only a matter of time.

I disagree with the slippery slope argument here. Nobody is calling for Kirby Smith, who was from the region, or even Lee, or JEB Stuart, which are both for more national figures to be renamed. I dont think this is about the confederacy. I think this is about NBF. Period.

As far as Confederate Park, I actually am ok with the name. It was named that due to an event, and not to fly in the face of integration. I dont think "confederate" is offensive, and it really is part of our history. The discussion about what the confederacy stood for is a complicated and lengthy discussion that involves economics, immigration, social structure, and era politics that most people simply dont understand in a meaningful way.

Quote from: I-10east on October 29, 2013, 11:51:22 AM

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 29, 2013, 10:28:57 AM
I didnt stick up for Boston. I said that Yawkey being a racist retarded the RedSox ability to compete in baseball. Furthermore, while I do love that city, they have a pretty horrendous reputation as a racist city, including being where bussing started, and furthermore, I love Jax. I dont love some of the backwards bullshit, like trying to justify the continued name of a predominantly black school after the first grand-wizard of the KKK through manipulation of history, but Jax is a pretty awesome city in most ways. I dare you to try to find me a city without its warts.

My bad Demo. I thought that you were an apologist first and obviously you're not, sorry that I misunderstood you. You sound reasonable. I thought that my examples of controversial names was comparable though; Street names have been changed for similar reasons.

This Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

Yeah, given that the name is the result of a Confederate veteran's reunion that took place in 1914, it makes sense.  However, for those wanting to keep the NBF name for the sake of history, what about Dignan?

It was changed a decade or less after the original name. I personally would be ok with Dignan, but its been Confederate for 100 years.

Another one would be Klutho, which was original Springfield park. Im ok with Klutho Park.

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 29, 2013, 02:44:14 PM
I dont think "confederate" is offensive, and it really is part of our history. The discussion about what the confederacy stood for is a complicated and lengthy discussion that involves economics, immigration, social structure, and era politics that most people simply dont understand in a meaningful way.

You could probably say the same thing about the Third Reich though, and I doubt you'll find "Nazi Park" in many progressive German cities. I agree that all of the above is true, and that the roots of the Civil War extended far beyond the mere issue of slavery into the fundamental differences between north and south, but to me, the common sense test says:

1) "What self-respecting black person would be excited to spend the day in Confederate Park?"
2) "What message does a park of this name project about our city to out-of-town visitors?"

If the choice is between reflecting history or historic events, or creating an inclusive, progressive school, park, etc. that the entire community feels comfortable enjoying, you've almost got to go with the ladder.

But then again, that's just me.

I'm one of those guys who gets angry every time we celebrate Columbus Day :)

Quote from: Demosthenes on October 29, 2013, 11:08:57 AM
To your point (I think) the whole discussion is pretty silly. I think for me the issue is, there are so many people that deserve to be memorialized that are local, or even national heros. In 50 years, I would prefer the random kid get curious about who Scott Speicher was, or maybe who John Delaney, or who Hans Tanzler were. Each of these people have blemishes, and maybe History will decided each was a bad person for one reason or another, but they are all people who can be held up as pillars of the Jax community today.

NBF was a man of his times. He was a proud southerner, a noteworthy tactician, and he probably acted in a manner he though befitted a man of his times. Im not saying he needs to be struck from the history books, or even necessarily looked down upon historically, but he has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on October 29, 2013, 09:21:22 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 26, 2013, 11:24:36 PM

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Noone is suggesting that we forget our history.  History is not static.  It is a constantly unfolding story.  Changing the school's name would simply be the next chapter in the history of NBF.  Personally, I hope we never forget the story of people like NBF and how we as a society have become more enlightened and constantly strive to move beyond intolerance, oppression and racism. Changing the name of the school, and the reasons for making the change, would be something remembered by generations to come.  So rest assured that history would not be forgotten.

Exactly!  Well said.  One can make arguments until blue in the face about all the justifications for not changing the name, but at the end of the day the name is divisive.  Change it.  Move on.

Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

Changing the name is a big deal. It is a gateway to other cultural aspects of Jacksonville being mowed down.  Our names and places (however named) are what make us special.  Changing the name out of ignorance due to someone else's (non-native) political agenda is not appropriate.  It sends the wrong message to the children too. It says to them... "Disrespect your history, your elders, and your culture."  Black, white, red, or yellow NBF was a war hero fighting for his home and constitution.  He is part of all our culture and history. He was a highly thought of person who should continue to be recognized. 

The petitions being signed are not local and not started by locals. They hold no merit in this case other than the fact that if you signed that petition you expose yourself to being one of the uninformed and gullible.

Finally, I find it amazing that this issue was vetted such a short time ago (once and for all) and that a new superintendent can come in and misdirect the entire public by putting this emotional, disrespectful, ignorant request back on the table as possible.  Our school district is awful.  This was just in the paper the other day: 

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-30/story/circuit-judge-criticizes-duval-school-system-violence

The basic safety of our children is at stake these days and we are all spun up trying to erase history instead of teaching it to our children. I beg you to read this whole thread closely because it is so obvious that changing this schools name is more about deconstructing our historical identity for political gain than anything else.

I for one would like to know where I can sign a petition asking for the name to remain.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 01:58:31 AM
Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

It seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 01:58:31 AMChanging the name is a big deal. It is a gateway to other cultural aspects of Jacksonville being mowed down.  Our names and places (however named) are what make us special.  Changing the name out of ignorance due to someone else's (non-native) political agenda is not appropriate.  It sends the wrong message to the children too. It says to them... "Disrespect your history, your elders, and your culture."  Black, white, red, or yellow NBF was a war hero fighting for his home and constitution.  He is part of all our culture and history. He was a highly thought of person who should continue to be recognized. 

I am a native of Jacksonville.  My ancestors fought for the Confederacy (a North Carolina regiment).  I am proud of my heritage, but I am not blind to the blemishes in that heritage. Our names and places do not make us special.  What we do in our lives day in and day out is what makes (or does not make) us special.  Changing the name because of the racist practices of NBF (even if they were typical of his era) including being the first Grand Dragon of the KKK is not sending the wrong message to children.  It says to them that some past practices in history are not okay.  We need to acknowledge them for what they were, teach children why they're not okay, move beyond them but never forget them.  Changing the name would be part of the lesson on racism that we all need to teach children.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 01:58:31 AM
The basic safety of our children is at stake these days and we are all spun up trying to erase history instead of teaching it to our children.

My children attend public schools.  Just this Friday, my wife and I had a meeting with my son's teachers, a guidance counselor and an asst. principal in part about a safety concern.  I am much more concerned about student safety than this name debate, but I'm pretty confident we have the capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time.

I have not seen one argument/point for the renaming of Forrest high school that has carried any substance.

QuoteIt seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things. Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history.

Like it or not, life during the Civil war was more complicated than the Hollywood history the offended would choose to believe.  I would submit that unless the activist calling for this name change also endorsed changing the name to another Confederate general that then they are the haters and dividers.

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

Stephen Dare often fights to stop erasing history. This is no different than tearing down a building. It is erasing the wishes of 2 generations of people who wanted to honor this man's memory based on his deeds.  Just because many from those generations are gone does not make it acceptable to change the name of the school.

If you open this can of worms then everything named to honor a person becomes susceptible to attack and change.  We cannot dishonor our forefathers  and rename monuments for a mob mentality.  Build another school somewhere and name it what you want.

QuoteOur names and places do not make us special.

I do not go to China to eat at Pizza Hut. Do you understand?  The names of things give us identity. We still have things named after the original American Indian names around here. Don't you see how cool that is? How interesting? This schools name fits the design of schools named in the area. It is fairly unique.

QuoteThe rest of the South was Dixie, but Jax was always a hotbed of Yankee sympathy, money and complicity.

The Yankees occupied Jacksonville during the war and I am sure that influenced the area but Jacksonville is/was definitely Dixie.

Have you noticed how many schools in Jacksonville are named after Confederate heros? It was designed by our forefathers to make us pay attention to the past and to see the sacrifice these admirable men made.

Jacksonville was and is the cornerstone of the South.  A large metropolis that is nothing like southern Florida and nothing like Atlanta. We still have traditions. We still have an identity. It is also military town so we have a great number of transplants from around the country. This mix makes us special. We are the best of the South. We are the best of the old mixed in with the new.  The foundation of Jacksonville is still connected to what we are building on today. It is important that we honor that and teach its merit.

I hope these words find their way to someone who matters in this decision.  Fix our school system and stop wasting time with debating history.  Teach the people at the school why the guy is hero...stop this nonsense.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 11:08:46 PM
I have not seen one argument/point for the renaming of Forrest high school that has carried any substance.

QuoteIt seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things. Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history.

I agree that history does not change.  However, I don't believe anyone is trying to change history.  There's just another movement to change the name of a building in Jacksonville.  Even if the school is named after General Sherman, it doesn't change the history of Fort Pillow and everything else Forrest was involved with far away from the First Coast. The only reason the local school got the name it has was because of a racist response against the Civil Rights movement in 1959.  This actually has nothing to do with Jacksonville's Civil War history.

QuoteLike it or not, life during the Civil war was more complicated than the Hollywood history the offended would choose to believe.  I would submit that unless the activist calling for this name change also endorsed changing the name to another Confederate general that then they are the haters and dividers.

The Civil War isn't the debate here. That's just a red herring.

QuoteI do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

I'm black and I find it offensive but let me explain.  I don't find the Civil War offensive. I find the reason behind us naming the school after Forrest offensive.  I consider myself to be informed. I also choose not to honor those who did the offense because of their desire to keep Jim Crow laws in place, so because of that, I'm very fine with seeing the name changed.

QuoteIf you open this can of worms then everything named to honor a person becomes susceptible to attack and change.  We cannot dishonor our forefathers  and rename monuments for a mob mentality.  Build another school somewhere and name it what you want.

If you really understand local history, you'll see this is nothing new.  For example, half the streets you drive on have been renamed over the last century. We also have had several schools and buildings named after various local individuals that have been closed and demolished. Life goes on. Regardless of what happens with this school in Jax, Forrest will still have his place in history books and statue in the place he actually lived in.

Quote

QuoteThe rest of the South was Dixie, but Jax was always a hotbed of Yankee sympathy, money and complicity.

The Yankees occupied Jacksonville during the war and I am sure that influenced the area but Jacksonville is/was definitely Dixie.

Have you noticed how many schools in Jacksonville are named after Confederate heros? It was designed by our forefathers to make us pay attention to the past and to see the sacrifice these admirable men made.

Jacksonville was and is the cornerstone of the South.  A large metropolis that is nothing like southern Florida and nothing like Atlanta. We still have traditions. We still have an identity. It is also military town so we have a great number of transplants from around the country. This mix makes us special. We are the best of the South. We are the best of the old mixed in with the new.  The foundation of Jacksonville is still connected to what we are building on today. It is important that we honor that and teach its merit.

We can spin this quote into a completely different thread but I don't believe it's accurate to claim Jax in either direction.  Jax has always been a multifaceted community. Heck for most of the first century, Jax was a majority black city and a quite progressive one at that.  I think it's a major stretch to loop the majority of that population in as Confederate sympathizers. Many of our most educated blacks during the turn of the century left during the Great Migration because of new Jim Crow laws intended to degrade them as human beings.  Unfortunately, that "across the tracks" history is largely unknown by most today. Nevertheless, it is quite awe inspiring when you start digging into it.

Anyway, all of this is pretty mute when it comes to the renaming of Forrest High School because the debate isn't about Civil War history. A major reason is the exact reason the school was named after Forrest in 1959. That wasn't to honor the guy that had nothing to do with Jax. It was a show of disrespect for those local people who were fighting for equal rights.  IMO, there's no honor in preserving that.

QuoteI hope these words find their way to someone who matters in this decision.  Fix our school system and stop wasting time with debating history.  Teach the people at the school why the guy is hero...stop this nonsense.

I've mentioned it before but the name will eventually change as Jax continues to diversify and move into the 21st century. However, I do agree that we should be fixing our school system as well. Yet, this doesn't stand in the way of that happening.

QuoteI agree that history does not change.  However, I don't believe anyone is trying to change history.  There's just another movement to change the name of a building in Jacksonville.  Even if the school is named after General Sherman, it doesn't change the history of Fort Pillow and everything else Forrest was involved with far away from the First Coast. The only reason the local school got the name it has was because of a racist response against the Civil Rights movement in 1959.  This actually has nothing to do with Jacksonville's Civil War history.

Just another? I do not recall another monument or public building having the name changed. Change does happen but it is normally when something is torn down. 

Sherman was your real demon. Forrest was a tinker bell compared to him.

There is no proof of an association of the naming of schools with the Civil Rights Movement.  Jacksonville already had schools named after Confederate Generals. It would be far easier to say that the names were chosen to follow  the trend started in the late 20's. You have no grounds to re-name this school other than a disputed association with a long vanquished (idiotic) organization.  If the activist are really only concerned with this association then by all means choose another Confederate hero to name the school...at least then they can keep their Mascot. That would show that this is not just a racial attack on southern heritage.

Another idea...name it after a Floridian Black Confederate even....There were 3 in St. Augustine! 

QuoteI'm black and I find it offensive but let me explain.  I don't find the Civil War offensive. I find the reason behind us naming the school after Forrest offensive.  I consider myself to be informed. I also choose not to honor those who did the offense because of their desire to keep Jim Crow laws in place, so because of that, I'm very fine with seeing the name changed.

Again there is no base for your contention.   It would seem you have completely avoided the facts that have been quoted, described and listed over and over by the historian in previous posts. You speak and are making decisions based on ignorance or hate. You pick.

QuoteIf you really understand local history, you'll see this is nothing new.  For example, half the streets you drive on have been renamed over the last century. We also have had several schools and buildings named after various local individuals that have been closed and demolished. Life goes on. Regardless of what happens with this school in Jax, Forrest will still have his place in history books and statue in the place he actually lived in.

I do not like streets being renamed...ever. However they change a lot so it happens. Schools and buildings sometimes get knocked down or sold but that is not the case here. What we have here is looking like Racial imperialism.  I hope I am wrong.

Quote
I've mentioned it before but the name will eventually change as Jax continues to diversify and move into the 21st century. However, I do agree that we should be fixing our school system as well. Yet, this doesn't stand in the way of that happening.

It does stand in the way. It is creating less confidence in the system. It is distracting everyone from the core problem. It is even making the core problem worse.

I have no faith that the community council will have adequate representation or the intelligence to do the right thing or even the smart thing.  However I hope that my efforts here will fall on a few ears out there. This whole thing is a circus and is bad for Jacksonville.

QuoteThere is no proof of an association of the naming of schools with the Civil Rights Movement.  Jacksonville already had schools named after Confederate Generals. It would be far easier to say that the names were chosen to follow  the trend started in the late 20's. You have no grounds to re-name this school other than a disputed association with a long vanquished (idiotic) organization.  If the activist are really only concerned with this association then by all means choose another Confederate hero to name the school...at least then they can keep their Mascot. That would show that this is not just a racial attack on southern heritage.

So for you this is all about preserving a certain part of "Southern" heritage?  That's cool but for a lot of people out there, that's not what this is about. That's certainly not my perspective.

There's also no trend starting in the 20s that carries through to the naming of Forrest. For example, you've got schools like Terry Parker, Ribault, Paxon, Fletcher, Englewood, Douglas Anderson, etc. sprinkled in there between the 1920s and 1959.

Last, this isn't an act of war, it's a name change. The only grounds needed to change the name of the school or anything else locally is a majority of the public demanding it. As I said earlier, I truly feel it will eventually change because as time goes on, the city will continue to get more diverse and the community's desires will morph to that of it's demographics. To that effect, it is what it is.

QuoteThere's also no trend starting in the 20s that carries through to the naming of Forrest. For example, you've got schools like Terry Parker, Ribault, Paxon, Fletcher, Englewood, Douglas Anderson, etc. sprinkled in there between the 1920s and 1959.

Just to be sure I went and did some homework.  You are dead wrong.  There was a trend. Duval, Jackson, Lee, Kirby Smith (PS25). We have a bunch of schools named for southerners...a good number of Confederates. They are scattered all over the timeline.

I can say this though...our leaders over the years have gone out of their way to provide balance in honoring the culture of everyone.  Black Americans have been given school after school to dedicate. There is no shortage of them. There is plenty of room for Forrest.

Just look at this:  http://www.examiner.com/article/back-to-school-who-they-are-named-after

It does not list all the names but look how many are centric around Black American sub culture?

You have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

QuoteThe only grounds needed to change the name of the school or anything else locally is a majority of the public demanding it. As I said earlier, I truly feel it will eventually change because as time goes on, the city will continue to get more diverse and the community's desires will morph to that of it's demographics. To that effect, it is what it is.

I can definitively state that majority rule has never been the factor in the naming of schools. It has always been about diversity or donation or service.  No one will understand how you can claim diversity if you keep chipping away at only one end of the spectrum. 

It is just wrong.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:01:28 AM

QuoteYou have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period.

Are you suggesting that efforts to address past instances of racism against blacks equates to current racism against whites? Or am I missing your point?  Because it sounds like the same "logic" that would say that there should be an NAAWP since there is an NAACP.

And, again, as someone with family roots in the Confederacy, it is amazing to me that there is so much energy over holding onto the vestiges of what happened 150 years ago.  I just don't understand why so many people view the Confederacy as something that defines who they are today.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:01:28 AM

QuoteThere's also no trend starting in the 20s that carries through to the naming of Forrest. For example, you've got schools like Terry Parker, Ribault, Paxon, Fletcher, Englewood, Douglas Anderson, etc. sprinkled in there between the 1920s and 1959.

Just to be sure I went and did some homework.  You are dead wrong.  There was a trend. Duval, Jackson, Lee, Kirby Smith (PS25). We have a bunch of schools named for southerners...a good number of Confederates. They are scattered all over the timeline.

I'm very aware of those schools and names.  I'm just saying it's no more of a trend than anything else.  However, all this is mute for why there continues to be push after push to change the name of this particular school.

QuoteI can say this though...our leaders over the years have gone out of their way to provide balance in honoring the culture of everyone.  Black Americans have been given school after school to dedicate. There is no shortage of them. There is plenty of room for Forrest.

Just look at this:  http://www.examiner.com/article/back-to-school-who-they-are-named-after

It does not list all the names but look how many are centric around Black American sub culture?

You have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

I'll pass on this.  It's pretty clear to me that you don't care about a name change, you're more concerned with making sure something honoring confederate history remains.

Quote

QuoteThe only grounds needed to change the name of the school or anything else locally is a majority of the public demanding it. As I said earlier, I truly feel it will eventually change because as time goes on, the city will continue to get more diverse and the community's desires will morph to that of it's demographics. To that effect, it is what it is.

I can definitively state that majority rule has never been the factor in the naming of schools. It has always been about diversity or donation or service.  No one will understand how you can claim diversity if you keep chipping away at only one end of the spectrum.

LOL, you can't be serious.  After all, we're talking about the same place that attacked a group of black kids with axe handles less than a year later because they wanted to be served at a lunch counter instead of the back door. However, you are right that majority rule was not a factor in the naming of Forrest.  It was a debatable subject then, just like it is now.

QuoteIt is just wrong.

This is just opinion.  It means as much as the opinions of neighboring residents who don't agree with this assessment.

Please know that I whole heartedly am against renaming anything.  NBF should remain.  My suggestion was to consider the implications of taking a school named after a Confederate general and naming it anything else. 

If you name it after another Cofederate at least it does not seem like you are attacking our Culture.

Furthermore, it seems you now agree that the naming of NBF is not proven to be related to Civil Rights movement reaction.  That is just one more reason you listed that is now refuted. 

You must understand that the United Daughters of the Confederacy would absolutely pick a Confederate as a name.  In fact, outside of pre-statehood who are Florida's earliest heros? Confederates!

Again I post to say that the intentions of this move are very clear. It is either retribution or an offensive meant to begin the renaming of Parks, monuments, libraries, schools, or roads.  I can only imagine how much reaction would occur if this was going the other way.

Lets rename James Weldon Johnson....how about that? How does that feel?  That would be wrong too.  Name new things what you want but Leave what is in place alone.  It is wrong and the intentions prove it.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 03, 2013, 07:41:17 AM
It seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Well said, friend.

Completely agree.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:36 AM
Please know that I whole heartedly am against renaming anything.  NBF should remain.  My suggestion was to consider the implications of taking a school named after a Confederate general and naming it anything else. 

If you name it after another Cofederate at least it does not seem like you are attacking our Culture.

That's not "our" culture.  It's kind of a stretch to suggest that our nearly two century old city is defined by a four year war that took place 150 years ago. Nevertheless, this whole confederate stuff is a red herring to why Forrest's name should be stripped off that facility. Btw, Dignan Park was renamed Confederate Park nearly a century ago.  Since you've taken a stance against renaming public facilities, would you be opposed to honoring Dignan by restoring the name?

QuoteFurthermore, it seems you now agree that the naming of NBF is not proven to be related to Civil Rights movement reaction.  That is just one more reason you listed that is now refuted. 

You must understand that the United Daughters of the Confederacy would absolutely pick a Confederate as a name.  In fact, outside of pre-statehood who are Florida's earliest heros? Confederates!

No, I do believe it was a reaction to what was taking place nationwide and locally during the time the school name was selected.  It's kind of hard to ignore, once you start digging into Jax's history. Btw, when you speak of "our" culture, are you talking about Jacksonville's or the United Daughters of the Confederacy? Also, why in the world is the United Daughters of the Confederacy selecting public school names for a major city that happened to be engulfed in the middle of a major fight for Civil Rights at the time?

QuoteAgain I post to say that the intentions of this move are very clear. It is either retribution or an offensive meant to begin the renaming of Parks, monuments, libraries, schools, or roads.  I can only imagine how much reaction would occur if this was going the other way.

Lets rename James Weldon Johnson....how about that? How does that feel?  That would be wrong too.  Name new things what you want but Leave what is in place alone.  It is wrong and the intentions prove it.

It's a stretch to compare Johnson and Forrest together. If Johnson committed Forrest's acts and had no relation to this town, then we'd have something to talk about.

There was a meeting regarding this last night... what happened at the meeting?

How about naming it Van Zant High School? A white southerner who is actually from Jax that isn't an embarassment to most reasonable white Jaxson's.

I'm a distant relative of Robert E. Lee and had a few Virginians on my mom's side fight for the Confederacy and some for the North...but guess what? The war was 150 years ago. The Confederacy lost and its not exactly a cause worth remembering....so nobody in my family gives a crap. We certainly don't care about "some dork up in Tennessee".

Since the DCSB has stopped naming schools after people, if they are going to rename it, they should just rename it Firestone Rd. High School, that way everyone will be pissed off. 

That would probably be fine with most people.

It is everyone's culture that lives in Jacksonville...if you do not identify with it then that is a shame. However it is still your culture. Renaming is the wrong thing to do.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 10:33:50 AM
It is everyone's culture that lives in Jacksonville...if you do not identify with it then that is a shame. However it is still your culture. Renaming is the wrong thing to do.

No actually it is not everyone's culture. Not even close.

Reconstruction era certainly was difficult for Jacksonville and the rest of the south. To act like Jacksonville was a yankee town is interesting but not accurate. Keep in mind if you move here you don't get to change the history of the place.

We are all part of this place and should honor its past...regional and local...pre statehood and post...sucession and reunion. Celebrate our city's personality instead of trying to rewrite or shape it!

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville.

I have never seen monument dedicated to the fallen sons of Jacksonville who fought for the Union. But yes reconstruction and progression should be celebrated too. However one does not cancel out the other.

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville.

After all, Dignan is a part of our culture and history and renaming is bad for Jacksonville.

You guys are just being ridiculous at this point. You hate being southern...I get it. However you shouldnt ruin it for the rest of us.

Jacksonville has had a lot of influences. Don't demonize just one of them! How about reading the Statue in Hemming sometime.

Try being inclusive like so many have done for years for Black americans....btw check this out...Lets name the next school after one of these guys!

http://www.florida-scv.org/Camp1316/Black%20Confederates.htm 

Renaming Forrest is really bad for Jacksonville.  It reeks of intolerence. It also reeks of propaganda. A man is not measured by a club he started to protect his people and then left when he disagreed with it.

He was much more than that...He fought for this place...for the South...where Jacksonville sits. He risked everything to protect his people. He sounds like a strong hero that should be honored.

It's interesting that this claim to preserving "our" local "history" is tied to a guy who lived hundreds of miles away in another state, and a school that's only 54 years old.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 12:40:38 PM
It's interesting that this claim to preserving "our" local "history" is tied to a guy who lived hundreds of miles away in another state, and a school that's ONLY 54 years old.

I really can care less either way if it's changed, but 54 years isn't exactly a really short time; If you're anti-Forrest, that fact isn't the best way to tackle the renaming controversy.

^54 years is a short time when it comes to our overall history. Also, Forrest is Forrest. No one is erasing his past or rewriting history books.  Fort Pillow still happened. Him having nothing to do with Jax isn't changing. It's just the renaming of a local school that shouldn't have been named after the guy in the first place. 

Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 01:08:05 PM
^54 years is a short time when it comes to our overall history.

We'll agree to disagree. I think it's a pretty considerable length of time, esp considering most Jax high schools aren't terribly old.

Hmmmm its like the lot of you are part of a lynch mob trying to convince yourselves you are right. You are wrong. Every point and reason is refuted. Find something else to pile on and smother.

Quote from: I-10east on November 05, 2013, 01:11:58 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 05, 2013, 01:08:05 PM
^54 years is a short time when it comes to our overall history.

We'll agree to disagree. I think it's a pretty considerable length of time, esp considering most Jax high schools aren't terribly old.

That's fine. But that's not going to be a strong enough reason to keep the name.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:15:14 PM
Hmmmm its like the lot of you are part of a lynch mob trying to convince yourselves you are right. You are wrong. Every point and reason is refuted. Find something else to pile on and smother.

Umm, ok. Just don't pull out the musket and cannon balls in retaliation if the community decides to move on from the Forrest name.

We (those of us who prefer a change, not every one agrees) are right that:

1) Forrest was not from Jacksonville or Florida and had no particular connection to area
2) The name was only chosen in 1959, when the school opened.

Those facts are pretty inarguable. Further, a number of us note that:

Forrest opened as a whites-only school, despite the Supreme Court ruling school segregation unconstitutional in Brown vs. the Board of Education 5 years earlier. In fact, a number of other segregated schools were created around this time, and several of the white schools were named for Confederates. Jacksonville didn't have a proliferation of Confederate-named schools before then - all I can name is Lee High, which opened in 1927. Why the change?

It doesn't take much reading between the lines here: the name was proposed specifically to invoke a particular view on the Southern order, in the face of federal intervention to protect the constitutional rights of African-American students.

This is a pretty ugly little historical footnote that undermines the claim that the name is historical or only chosen to celebrate Southern history. Beyond that, many locals consider Forrest particularly unlikable because of the Klan connection and the massacre of blacks at Fort Pillow. Given that:

1) Forrest was not from Jacksonville or Florida and had no particular connection to area
2) The name was only chosen in 1959, when the school opened

...the arguments for a name change look more and more sensible.

Not a chance....just go back and read. Too busy to repeat all that for a new guy.

Sorry, not a "new guy". And you never did respond to the argument that the school name was only proposed in 1959, as a swipe at the civil rights movement.

Sgarey123's answer to this is posted on page 5.  It was never about race. Only about honoring Forrest'dedication to the Confederacy.  I'm also sure that was what the whole Ax Handle Saturday thing was about a few months later. Those kids should have known better than challenging tradition and our culture by asking to be served at Woolworth's lunch counter.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:01:28 AM

QuoteThere's also no trend starting in the 20s that carries through to the naming of Forrest. For example, you've got schools like Terry Parker, Ribault, Paxon, Fletcher, Englewood, Douglas Anderson, etc. sprinkled in there between the 1920s and 1959.

Just to be sure I went and did some homework.  You are dead wrong.  There was a trend. Duval, Jackson, Lee, Kirby Smith (PS25). We have a bunch of schools named for southerners...a good number of Confederates. They are scattered all over the timeline.

I can say this though...our leaders over the years have gone out of their way to provide balance in honoring the culture of everyone.  Black Americans have been given school after school to dedicate. There is no shortage of them. There is plenty of room for Forrest.

Just look at this:  http://www.examiner.com/article/back-to-school-who-they-are-named-after

It does not list all the names but look how many are centric around Black American sub culture?

You have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

QuoteThe only grounds needed to change the name of the school or anything else locally is a majority of the public demanding it. As I said earlier, I truly feel it will eventually change because as time goes on, the city will continue to get more diverse and the community's desires will morph to that of it's demographics. To that effect, it is what it is.

I can definitively state that majority rule has never been the factor in the naming of schools. It has always been about diversity or donation or service.  No one will understand how you can claim diversity if you keep chipping away at only one end of the spectrum. 

It is just wrong.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 01:59:11 PM
We (those of us who prefer a change, not every one agrees) are right that:

1) Forrest was not from Jacksonville or Florida and had no particular connection to area
2) The name was only chosen in 1959, when the school opened.

Those facts are pretty inarguable. Further, a number of us note that:

Forrest opened as a whites-only school, despite the Supreme Court ruling school segregation unconstitutional in Brown vs. the Board of Education 5 years earlier. In fact, a number of other segregated schools were created around this time, and several of the white schools were named for Confederates. Jacksonville didn't have a proliferation of Confederate-named schools before then - all I can name is Lee High, which opened in 1927. Why the change?

It doesn't take much reading between the lines here: the name was proposed specifically to invoke a particular view on the Southern order, in the face of federal intervention to protect the constitutional rights of African-American students.

This is a pretty ugly little historical footnote that undermines the claim that the name is historical or only chosen to celebrate Southern history. Beyond that, many locals consider Forrest particularly unlikable because of the Klan connection and the massacre of blacks at Fort Pillow. Given that:

1) Forrest was not from Jacksonville or Florida and had no particular connection to area
2) The name was only chosen in 1959, when the school opened

...the arguments for a name change look more and more sensible.

Kirby-Smith was built around the time Lee was. 

I think part of the problem with renaming Forrest is that once that one gets renamed, you will see people trying to get other school names changed as well.  You'd probably see fights over Jefferson Davis, Kirby-Smith, J.E.B Stuart, and probably even Lee.
I think it is a good thing that the DCSB stopped naming schools for people a number of years ago. 

^Edmund Kirby Smith was also from NE Florida. As for a "slippery slope" to renaming the other schools, there's never been a proposal like that that has gotten any traction. Perhaps that would change, perhaps not; either way it's not a particularly good reason to keep this name.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
^Edmund Kirby Smith was also from NE Florida. As for a "slippery slope" to renaming the other schools, there's never been a proposal like that that has gotten any traction. Perhaps that would change, perhaps not; either way it's not a particularly good reason to keep this name.

Oh, I am not saying that it is a good reason, but it could be a reason so many are resistant to the name change.

Tacachale,

To go ahead and clarify...

Quote1) Forrest was not from Jacksonville or Florida and had no particular connection to area
2) The name was only chosen in 1959, when the school opened

1) Forrest was General for the Confederacy.  Florida is part of the region we call "the south" and also was part of the Confederacy.  This is an affliation in its own right. If you scroll back several pages one very informed member of this site goes further indicating that Forrest also commanded one of the regiments that came from Jacksonville.  Regardless, a great number of Confederate Generals have been honored across the entire South regardless of home or visitation.

2) The school did open in 1959 at the location of Jeb Stuart sits today.  It was not integrated until it moved in 1966 to the location it is at today. Knowing Government like I do I could completely see administration seeing the move as a golden oppurtunity to implement the new policies. I could believe that the building where Jeb Stuart is having not been intended for such a manuever in the planning stage.  Things took a lot longer back then! Seriously.

I do not know how familiar you are with the relationship the different levels of government have with each other but sometimes it can be troublesome ( katrina was a perfect example).  One could say that Brown vs Board of Education was the first time the Federal Government inserted itself like that (other than the war).  It does not surprise me a bit that it would take several years for policy to come to fruition.  It was a territory battle.  You folks all see the social side of the matter and get emotional about about the core issue.  It is a whole different matter when it comes to government.  It just does not work like a business and it never will. Another good example would be "Obamacare." It will take years before that works I am sure.

I hope this helps....Renaming NBF is a bad idea. It kills some of our local flavor. It ticks off 54 years of graduates. It cost money.  It stirs up racial hatred.  It is an awful thing all around.  I blame Vitti for bring it back to the table. I feel like he must be so overwhelmed that he needed a distraction to keep the stock holders (us) busy quillibling over until he can figure out what to do.

QuoteSgarey123,  It kills some of our local flavor.

OMG.....that is all!

Quote from: carpnter on November 05, 2013, 06:06:27 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
^Edmund Kirby Smith was also from NE Florida. As for a "slippery slope" to renaming the other schools, there's never been a proposal like that that has gotten any traction. Perhaps that would change, perhaps not; either way it's not a particularly good reason to keep this name.

Oh, I am not saying that it is a good reason, but it could be a reason so many are resistant to the name change.

Gotcha, and I agree - that's definitely something to think about. I also think the "no change" side has more of a point on the money this will cost than is sometimes acknowledged.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 10:20:16 PM

Quote from: carpnter on November 05, 2013, 06:06:27 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 05, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
^Edmund Kirby Smith was also from NE Florida. As for a "slippery slope" to renaming the other schools, there's never been a proposal like that that has gotten any traction. Perhaps that would change, perhaps not; either way it's not a particularly good reason to keep this name.

Oh, I am not saying that it is a good reason, but it could be a reason so many are resistant to the name change.

Gotcha, and I agree - that's definitely something to think about. I also think the "no change" side has more of a point on the money this will cost than is sometimes acknowledged.

For some of them the opposition is much more base than an issue of money or history.  A woman was hauled from this afternoons meeting by JSO for yelling and disrupting the meeting.  It is alleged that she called one of the School Board members a "Ni@@er".  For those who think this isn't about race and bigotry, think again.  For many of those who support keeping the name it is all about racism. 

Sgarey123,

Yes, Florida is part of the South, but that doesn't mean than anyone from any part of the South represents our local history or culture. And even more so, simply because Florida was part of the Confederacy doesn't mean that any Confederate figure from any Confederate state is part of our local history. Florida was also once part of the Spanish and British empires, but we'd find it odd if we were to consider "Francisco Pizarro High School" and "Earl Cornwallis Middle" to represent our local culture. Oklawaha did try to come up with a Jacksonville connection for Forrest, but it's *really* stretching it. He's just passionate at the topic, like yourself, which is a good thing even if we don't agree.

I'm very well aware of the background of education in the 50s, and the issue of segregation was far more significant than you're saying. After Brown, the powers in Florida and the other segregated states, both in the South and outside it, fought like Kilkenny cats to keep the status quo. They launched obstructionist legal challenges hoping to overturn, nullify, or postpone the ruling from taking effect. Here in Florida, we kept opening segregated schools. That is the background in which Forrest and the other schools were named.

LOL, Cornwallis Middle?  I like it.

I simply CANNOT be the only one...  :)

Kilkenny cats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny_cat

QuoteThe term Kilkenny cat refers to anyone who is a tenacious fighter. The origin of the term is now lost so there are many stories purporting to give the true meaning.

To "fight like a Kilkenny cat" refers to an old story about two cats who fought to the death and ate each other up such that only their tails were left.[1] There is also a limerick (with optional added couplet) about the two cats:


There once were two cats of Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
And they scratched and they bit
'Til (excepting their nails And the tips of their tails) Instead of two cats there weren't any!

Should probably rename Jacksonville while we are at it.  You could make an easy case against Andrew Jackson but I have just never liked the name personally.

Great cities require distinctive names

whenever i tell people where i am from, i say "Jacksonville" and then as a follow up "Florida" bc there is probably a Jackson or Jacksonville in every state.

maybe we could adopt a symbol like Prince...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 06, 2013, 06:45:21 AM
I simply CANNOT be the only one...  :)

Kilkenny cats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny_cat

QuoteThe term Kilkenny cat refers to anyone who is a tenacious fighter. The origin of the term is now lost so there are many stories purporting to give the true meaning.

To "fight like a Kilkenny cat" refers to an old story about two cats who fought to the death and ate each other up such that only their tails were left.[1] There is also a limerick (with optional added couplet) about the two cats:


There once were two cats of Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
And they scratched and they bit
'Til (excepting their nails And the tips of their tails) Instead of two cats there weren't any!

You WEREN'T, and Thank You for doing the Google work for me!  :D

Renaming hurts Jacksonville.

There is racism going on from both sides of the issue. The objective way to handle it is to ignore those folks. The kkk are a bunch of small minded buffoons and do not own the confederacy. However, the other side should be careful to not think along the same lines as them.

Renaming Forrest's grave site was certainly racist. You folks may not realize it but NBF name was a household word. As popular as Lee.

He does represent Jax.....he represents the entire south.

Renaming is foolish. Do not act like Memphis, tenn.

How could there possibly be a racist reason for advocating the name change?? We are treading on the border of absurdity now, if we've not already fallen into the abyss.

Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on November 06, 2013, 12:11:35 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 06, 2013, 06:45:21 AM
I simply CANNOT be the only one...  :)

Kilkenny cats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny_cat

QuoteThe term Kilkenny cat refers to anyone who is a tenacious fighter. The origin of the term is now lost so there are many stories purporting to give the true meaning.

To "fight like a Kilkenny cat" refers to an old story about two cats who fought to the death and ate each other up such that only their tails were left.[1] There is also a limerick (with optional added couplet) about the two cats:


There once were two cats of Kilkenny
Each thought there was one cat too many
So they fought and they fit
And they scratched and they bit
'Til (excepting their nails And the tips of their tails) Instead of two cats there weren't any!

You WEREN'T, and Thank You for doing the Google work for me!  :D

Ha, sorry guys, that won't be the last 19th-century Irish reference you'll be Googling if you read my posts. Here's another great invocation of the Wild Cats of Kilkenny by the greatest band the world has ever known:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1APnWRAMo

Please do provide what you think "racism" is? 

There is no logical basis to change the name...here or memphis.  Memphis basically showed how minorities who gain the majority act. No grace there....lets show some here.

Renaming is a bad idea. Hold true to what makes us different...do not throw it away.

M

IMO the most fitting definition provided by Merriam Webster is "racial prejudice or discrimination."  I am not aware of anyone who is advocating removing NBF's name from the school due to racial prejudice or discrimination against people of his race.  Please enlighten us if I am blind on this point.

Naming something after a guy from some other state isn't celebrating local history and it doesn't makes us "different". Far from it, it makes us a place that doesn't think enough of its own history. Again, should we have "Francisco Pizarro High School" and "Earl Cornwallis Middle?"

Black folk have been taught not to enjoy their own culture. Thus they feel they have one separate and do not identify with their own confederate roots. Simply no marrketing has been done...no teaching...no preaching to convince them otherwise.

At the same time everyone is being assimulated to forget what local means...heritage...who they are. I would say most know the nfl better than politics...or general history...much less family history. People move more now too which makes them feel no ownership in the culture they live.

Essentially there is a movement to rid the states of personality...cultural differences...diversity.

The point is that this is the result...black culture taking away what they percieve as white culture! Racism.

For years leaders have made sure the minority is represented and now as soon as the coin flips....well now you see why renaming is bad...right? Intolerance...racism...one culture feeding on another.

This is not what jacksonville should be about. Ever.

I'm a proud black southerner. I've been taught mine from a very young age.  It's not confederate. No need to treat or view all of us a some sort of tribe that must think and abide by the same views and rules.

QuoteSgary123:   
Essentially there is a movement to rid the states of personality...cultural differences...diversity

Oh....so this is actually a nationwide conspiracy?  That explains everything...... 

Just curious, who made you the spokesperson for all that is southern?  Was there an election or something that the rest of us born and bred southerners missed or did you decide all on your lonesome that your view of southern history is the accurate one and a matter of "grace" and all?  If so, how old were you exactly when your mama dropped you on your punkin head?  Bless your little heart, guess you don't know any better.   :P

It's getting comical in here, y'all.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 06, 2013, 05:18:40 PM
The point is that this is the result...black culture taking away what they percieve as white culture! Racism.

Yes, it is getting comical.  This will be my final post on this board (feel a little like a bass who has swallowed a hook with a bad worm and need to spit it out).  I am white, so I don't see how it could be racist that I would advocate for a name change.  And, I don't feel like "black culture" (whatever that is) is taking away my "white culture" (as if it is a homogeneous culture in the first place).  But the beauty of this protracted back and forth is that I believe we have once again exposed that many of the underlying arguments against changing the name are indeed a perpetuation of the same racist attitudes that prevailed when the name was originally selected.  It is my sincere hope that our community will soon progress beyond such small minded beliefs and actually become a "Bold New City of the South."

I love this town. I wish you all did too. I find it sad that you can not understand the very clear points that I have made here.  How quickly we forget all the lessons we were taught for years about  Civil Rights.  Its just unbelievable to you that the victim has now changed.

The mob being a mixture of fools thinking they are doing the right thing when they are merely breaking the ideals that provided them this choice.

Be inclusive. Be tolerant. Save Jacksonville from going down this road. Honor our history and cherish it before we are just another town.

Renaming is bad for all of us.

Duval schools board member Connie Hall requests Forrest High be renamed

QuoteFor the first time a Duval County School Board member Tuesday night formally requested that the school board consider changing the name of Nathan Bedford Forrest High.

Initially the board resisted the sometimes impassioned pleas from community members Tuesday night to make a decision now about whether to rename it.

But near the end of the meeting progress was made; board member Connie Hall submitted a letter formally requesting the school be renamed, requesting that a vote become an agenda item for a future board meeting. Then the seven board members voted unanimously to have a special meeting Friday to formally accept her request, have a board discussion and instruct the superintendent to formally set up procedures for possibly renaming the school, including soliciting community input.

"This has been in the community for quite some time, too long," Hall said. "It definitely needs to be addressed, one way or another."

full article: http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-11-05/story/complaints-about-forrest-high-school-name-voiced-school-board-meeting

QuoteSgary123...  I wish you all did too. I find it sad that you can not understand the very clear points that I have made here.

Oh we understand your points quite clearly.  ::)

With regard to NBF, I am personally less concerned about the historical aspect behind the push to rename.  I am not racially sensitive enought to care on my end but I certainly understand if others are.  The man really doesnt have ties to the area worthy of having a high school named after him (Robt. E. Lee actually did visit the area, but thats a different conversation). 

What we are really talking about is ownership and in that respect, renaming does help.  It shows progress.  It fosters community involvement which in turn fosters ownership and community pride.  When you take ownership you care.

Rename it, take ownership and make Forest a better place. Ill start a new thread on renaming Jacksonville...

Well now...that is special.

While we are at it lets just shoot and eat every endangered species we can. Lets knock down anything not built after 1980. Lets close all the mom and pop businesses and only shop at "approved" stores.  Lets close every business that isn't funded by the Government.  No more non-franchise restaurants...you get chains only. Heck, lets burn all the books that do not have the "correct" way of thinking. Knock down every tombstone, monument, fountain, and plaque.  We can rename every bridge, building, highway,battlefield, school to something above the Mason-Dixon line (so we can look cool to them..what we have down here just sucks right?). 

Diane...you supported Black heritage with the restoration of a hospital downtown. Why? Why do we need that? Mow it down. We do not need our own identity or history.  After all Jacksonville is a Yankee town! We are wannabes!  We can be told what we are once we forget our real roots. In fact lets just demolish the fort at St. Augustine or we rename it after Colin Powell! YAY! :)  You know what....once we get all the above done...lets all just wear the approved uniforms...okay? Cool!

I do not believe for one minute most of you "get" it.  All you see is "KKK" and that is sad. The big picture is so much more. Eat what you have been cooking for years folks....renaming this is bad. There is no other way to slice it.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 07, 2013, 10:37:32 AM
Well now...that is special.

While we are at it lets just shoot and eat every endangered species we can. Lets knock down anything not built after 1980. Lets close all the mom and pop businesses and only shop at "approved" stores.  Lets close every business that isn't funded by the Government.  No more non-franchise restaurants...you get chains only. Heck, lets burn all the books that do not have the "correct" way of thinking. Knock down every tombstone, monument, fountain, and plaque.  We can rename every bridge, building, highway,battlefield, school to something above the Mason-Dixon line (so we can look cool to them..what we have down here just sucks right?). 

Diane...you supported Black heritage with the restoration of a hospital downtown. Why? Why do we need that? Mow it down. We do not need our own identity or history.  After all Jacksonville is a Yankee town! We are wannabes!  We can be told what we are once we forget our real roots. In fact lets just demolish the fort at St. Augustine or we rename it after Colin Powell! YAY! :)  You know what....once we get all the above done...lets all just wear the approved uniforms...okay? Cool!

I do not believe for one minute most of you "get" it.  All you see is "KKK" and that is sad. The big picture is so much more. Eat what you have been cooking for years folks....renaming this is bad. There is no other way to slice it.

Not sure I follow, are you simply opposed to change?

I think most people on Metro Jacksonville support preserving our unique local culture and history. However, many of us disagree that naming a school after a guy from Tennessee nearly 100 years after the Civil War is really a part of our local culture and history, let alone that the name should be kept despite so many people taking issue with it.

There is a German club in Avondale btw.  You miss the point again.

You are trying to misdirect from the core point.  The absurdity of destroying everything unique about this town includes having a school named after Forrest.  Furthermore you invite change based on ignorance...furthermore you turn us into a City that pines to be like somewhere else instead of being proud of who we are.

Have an open mind.  Our Grandparent's generation named all these schools and they did a good job spreading out the naming.

Finally...I get what you are inferring. The fact is race is not the factor driving me to want to keep name. The people removing it have a that problem.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 07, 2013, 10:37:32 AM
Well now...that is special.

While we are at it lets just shoot and eat every endangered species we can. Lets knock down anything not built after 1980. Lets close all the mom and pop businesses and only shop at "approved" stores.  Lets close every business that isn't funded by the Government.  No more non-franchise restaurants...you get chains only. Heck, lets burn all the books that do not have the "correct" way of thinking. Knock down every tombstone, monument, fountain, and plaque.  We can rename every bridge, building, highway,battlefield, school to something above the Mason-Dixon line (so we can look cool to them..what we have down here just sucks right?). 

Diane...you supported Black heritage with the restoration of a hospital downtown. Why? Why do we need that? Mow it down. We do not need our own identity or history.  After all Jacksonville is a Yankee town! We are wannabes!  We can be told what we are once we forget our real roots. In fact lets just demolish the fort at St. Augustine or we rename it after Colin Powell! YAY! :)  You know what....once we get all the above done...lets all just wear the approved uniforms...okay? Cool!

I do not believe for one minute most of you "get" it.  All you see is "KKK" and that is sad. The big picture is so much more. Eat what you have been cooking for years folks....renaming this is bad. There is no other way to slice it.

Yes I did support the effort to restore and save the historic "Brewster Hospital" and in fact was the driving force behind getting this done.  It took ten years time to do it too, so I am no stranger to facing off with foolish folk who wish to argue a point by presenting straw man arguments.  Firstly, Nathan B. Forrest has no historic connection to Jacksonville.  The Brewster building is one of the oldest structures in Jacksonville built here in 1865, twenty years earlier than originally thought.  It's history as the first Black hospital in our city and the S.E. is a driving part of Black history, that did not include enslaving people but rather allowing them to become nurses, doctors, professors and medical professionals and this is pure Jacksonville history, not a broad reaching association.  People were not murdered there, they were healed.  The hospital itself was a lesson in inclusiveness and that was evidenced by the fire of 1901 after which folks black and white fled to the Brewster for medical treatment and it was provided to all. Frankly I am appalled by thinking that would attempt to put the racist beliefs and murderous actions of a man not from Jacksonville in the same category as the Brewster.  It is utterly ridiculous to invoke the name of the Brewster or my association with it as an emotional ploy and attempt to excite thinking by suggesting that all history should be torn down.  This is a name change to a school, not about tearing the school down.  You certainly have worked very hard to justify and spin your personal views about this name change into an issue that in your mind is about "intolerance" on the part of people who understand three important facts.  One, Nathan B. Forrest has no historical connection to Jacksonville.  Secondly, that he was responsible for creating a racist organization and ordering the massacre of hundreds of imprisoned people. The third fact is the glaring reality that in the year 2013 enough people have grown in their understanding about the ugly attached to racism that they refuse to allow a vestige of hatred, in this case Forrest be the moniker for higher education in a non segregated school.  You claim to love Jacksonville, more than anyone else.  Seriously? Your words don't portray a love of community at all but rather the aim of an apologist who would excuse both the racism and murders perpetuated by Forrest and call it local flavor.

I propose a compromise.  To honor a Confederate officer and Commanding Rebel Officer at the Battle of Olustee... rename Forrest to Joseph Finegan High.  Mascot can remain the Rebels... He seems to have been an honorable fellow... Everyone should be happy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Finegan

It is either this or Skynrd High...  8)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/FineganJoseph63.jpg)

Look, I am being inclusive here....the people who want to rename are playing offense. They want to remove and replace to make one group happy at the expense of the other!  Its one thing to want honor someone but quite another to dishonor another to do it.

I want the name to stay because I like our local flavor! I am proud that we haven't turned our back on the last few generations based off of lies and surveys from another region. I say to heck with them if they don't like it. This is the SOUTH in the State of Florida in the bold city of Jacksonville! We are the home to many and honor everyone equally.

I know the regulars on this board a r e preservationists and its makes me respect you for that however the same reasons apply to the name of the school...it is special. Just as cool as the indian names of things around here...just as cool as Bewsters hospital.

Why the war path folks? Why is one culture any better than another? We need all the differences we can get here. Why reward those on the war path? 

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville...It seems many agree!

Progress...

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-11-04/story/forrest-sac-members-ok-school-name-staying-same

Quote from: Apache on November 07, 2013, 04:48:40 PM
I think this guy is just messing with you all now. Literally makes no sense. No points. No rationale. Talking in circles and thinks everyone agrees with him.

I believe he's probably drinking some Rye Whiskey right now and laughing his ass off.

Apache, this is my sense as well.

Somebody has to stop the mob. Kill the smear campaign.  Stand up for whats right and not what popular....The big difference is I choose to preserve and honor all. You guys seem to think it is "OK" to leave one group out! The largest group...the base of the soup! 

The one moment in the history of the country that defined everything means nothing to you guys.  You deny it had any affect on your lives. You want to tarnish one of it finest soldiers.  I mean do you realize how cruel that war was? If you lived and didn't lose a limb it was miracle!

Did any of you go to high school there? How about any of the others named after Confederate heroes?

Have you ever watched a football game in the cold while the band's drums are thundering...a players scores a touchdown...and a Confederate soldier fires a cannon!  BAM! Black and white kids cheering onward under one banner for their school...chanting the name of the honored warrior that we all admire and hope to measure up to.   

I reckon not.  You want us to chant to Colin Powell. Better yet you want to take that all away. For what? To make some guy named Omotao happy? To make people who do not live here happy? The news? The New Yorkers? No Way...

I make total sense. Those that disagree can try to divert. But keeping the name is the right thing to do.

^^just a FYI. I don't believe you could get Colin Powell as the name anyway.  I recall reading something I believe that Duval County has a current policy in place where no schools can be named any longer after any person dead or alive.

Quote from: stephendare on November 07, 2013, 09:38:29 PM
If you even halfway believed your own hype, sgarey, you would be the first person asking that Nathan Bedford's name not be dishonored by allowing a bunch of racist segregationists from the 1960s to smear his memory.

I don't think you care one whit about southern history.

And the rest of us don't care one whit about whether or not the Klan gets to keep its smug little joke up.

Yup.  Agree!

Omotao was quoted in the paper suggesting Colin Powell be the new name.

Stephen,

Pretty typical to make character attacks when you have clearly no grounds left in your argument.

You are really calling me the "Klan?" lol   Wow...

I am the real Mcoy. Stephen...a true Floridian whose heritage includes both Spanish and Huguenot pioneers. I would not have anything to do with the Klan.  I have spent my life seeking out diversity. I also spent my childhood listening to my elders.

I believe everything I have written...and every thing I have written is true.

But know this....I can see a bully in the room on this one and I am merely pointing it out.  We must defend our local identity no matter what others say.  We can not be a town that endorses or cow-tails to smear campaigns against it.  We are a great City. We have nothing to apologize for.  Nathan Bedford Forrest was praised even by his enemies!

Read this and tell me this man was not an honorable man: 

Forrest's farewell address to his troops, May 9, 1865[edit]

Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.

The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone. In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.

I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

— N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General
Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps
Gainesville, Alabama
May 9, 1865

Interesting link from the Museum of Southern History here in Jacksonville right off their FB page.  Lets connect the dots shall we?  Gosh, I wonder if old Sgarey123 knows the pastor?  They sound a bit like soulmates to me. Certainly seem to share the same passion for old Forrest and the same twist on history. Tell me Sgarey123, how much of your views are based in exposure to folk like the old pastor here who was popular enough at the local Southern museum to warrant a link shared about him.....twice....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDnwpNNiqDQ&feature=share  (click link for passionate you tube video where the pastor honors Nathan B. Forrest.)

and this......http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/john-weaver

(http://i.imgur.com/kG3ntvA.jpg)

John Weaver

30 New Activists Heading Up the Radical Right (2012)
Date of Birth:
1945
Location:
Fitzgerald, GA.
Ideology:
Neo-Confederate

A minister for more than four decades, John Weaver is a religious mainstay of the racist neo-Confederate movement and a man who has recently become a leading proponent of training Christians for armed battle.

Weaver, who earned a bachelor's in theology from Bob Jones University (which until 2000 banned interracial dating), is the pastor of Freedom Baptist Ministries in Fitzgerald, Ga., and preaches weekly in Waycross, Ga., and Live Oak, Fla. But his interests go way beyond preaching.

For years, Weaver was a leading member of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a hate group that opposes interracial marriage and has described black people as a "retrograde species of humanity." He also long served as chaplain to the Southern heritage group Sons of Confederate Veterans at a time when its leadership was largely controlled by racist extremists.

Weaver was much sought after by extremist groups. In March 2007, for instance, he spoke for five nights at South Pointe Baptist Church in Pelzer, S.C., at a conference sponsored by Christian Exodus. That group was working to get Christians in South Carolina to secede and was led by Cory Burnell, himself a former member of the League of the South (LOS), a neo-secessionist hate group.

"John Weaver is the quintessential Southern preacher, bringing the whole counsel of God with practical application to every area of life," Burnell said at the time. "He teaches the biblical doctrine of interposition as well as any man, and brings powerful illustrations from American history, with touching stories from the First and Second Wars for American independence."

Regardless of whether or not "interposition" is "biblical," it is a doctrine that was used by racist Southern state governments to defend slavery and, later, to try to "nullify" laws and court rulings against segregation. It is also one that the courts have repeatedly ruled unconstitutional.

In April 2011, Weaver made an appearance on "The Political Cesspool," a racist radio program run by James Edwards out of Memphis, Tenn., that has featured a veritable "Who's Who" of the radical right. Others on the show have included former Klan leaders, Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis and fellow travelers.

Weaver has also taken up weapons in a big way. He recently became a certified instructor for Front Sight, a firearms training institute. At a Georgia LOS meeting in March 2011, he taught members to draw down on an enemy. He taught gun safety at the LOS national convention last July.

Also last year, Weaver spoke at the Church of Kaweah, a militant hate group based in California. Today, the church sells tapes of Weaver's sermons and also features him in a church video entitled, "To Teach Them War

I have never heard of him before. I do not know him.

Someone like Forrest should have all kinds of fans. He was a huge personality. A real hero who led his troops into battle on horseback!

My elders loved politics and spanned both parties...spanned different levels of wealth too.

I have never even been to a re-enactment. I am a regular guy who appreciates his local history despite what Hollywood and the history channel says.  I do not appreciate people picking on this town or on the South. I think we are the best part of the Continent. Unfortunately our regional pride has been getting chipped away with a generational change and a push of propaganda.

I certainly do not think we should hire a man like Vitti ever again.  The nerve he shows coming in here and stirring up all this trouble...for what ends? Resume? He should be fired. This is what happens when we continually hire people from out of town for our highest paying positions. Pratt-Daniels went to a lot of work to put this issue to bed and then this guy walks in takes us backwards!

It's funny to even conceive that 1/7 of the population would not fight in the war...for their home and families. Did you know that hundreds of Black Americans attended Nathan B. Forrest's funeral?

Let's just hope that we can hold the ship together.  Fight back when people want to knock down our history...our identity. Stand strong an ignore those who would manipulate the mob and history for their own means.  We must ignore those that act like only "certain kinds" of history are worth preserving. 

Renaming the school would be like disowning a life long friend based on an untrue rumor.  Do we turn on back on our friend and believe a stranger? I say we support our heros and tell the rest of the world to worry about their own issues.

Yawn back....

It seems to me that you are the hater..not me.  You are the intolerant one...the extremist.  The one who ignores the regional affiliation for where you live.

You can not endorse renaming and still act like an advocate for Forrest or the South. To support this you show that you only accept one side and are intolerant of the other.

stephendare, you can not persuade someone to your point of view when that person lives in an alternate reality.

All that you love about the South was built on the platform of strong regional and local pride.  That region fought a war and its only advantages were strong leaders and home field.

Renaming dishonors every name you just listed...do you not see that?

Is "racistly" a word?

One guest on First Coast Connect this morning suggested that we have so many Southern heroes that we could honor, so why do we seem to only honor generals? I would love to see public places named after artists, artists, and other folks who have had positive influence on our city.

Thats like thinking Shakespeare had nothing to do with Hemingway...or that a tree can grow with no roots.

Every person you mention is a product of their environment! This is not an advanced concept. You are focused on differences and I am looking for the relationships.  You are being a divider!

If you "hate" parts of southern history then just admit it and be done. Just do not think for a second that your position is just. You deny the foundation...and its heros...have anything to do with the section of history you enjoy.

It is absurd.

Do us all a favor and stop trying to dishonor our region.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 08, 2013, 12:35:35 PM
Thats like thinking Shakespeare had nothing to do with Hemingway...or that a tree can grow with no roots.

Every person you mention is a product of their environment! This is not an advanced concept. You are focused on differences and I am looking for the relationships.  You are being a divider!

If you "hate" parts of southern history then just admit it and be done. Just do not think for a second that your position is just. You deny the foundation...and its heros...have anything to do with the section of history you enjoy.

It is absurd.

Do us all a favor and stop trying to dishonor our region.

Let me ask you this.  You claim to know nothing about Pastor John Weaver above....never heard of him, okay. Do you also know nothing about the Museum of Southern History here in Jacksonville?  Being such a history buff and all, certainly you would have visited the museum no?  If so you would have found yourself in the company of folks who laud the pastor's words and ideas and post them on their FB page.  Since you never heard of him, ahem,  I have provided a video of his preaching and a biography of him and his beliefs.  So the question is, do you agree with the Pastor and his views on Nathan B. Forrest as well has his take on the confederacy?   I have one other question for you as well.  Do you really live in Jacksonville or just have a P.O. Box here? 

I have certainly driven by it....if it is the one off Herschel. No time to watch movies yet....holding back this spin and smear session is enough.

I have been to the Ritz theater several times. I am always surprised there isn't an exhibit on Black Confedarates. I will check the movies later today maybe. I live in the core of Jacksonville.

Stephen, you must be frustrated if you still don't understand by now. I am not preaching neo anything. It is not new. I must say though that your intolerance shows you have more in commonwith the Klan than I ever will.

smh at these comments.

School Board just voted unanimously to support the bill of Dr. Connie Hall which is to rename Forrest High School.  The request now moves on to Superintendent Vitti who has already said he would support such a change if it came before him~

Bravo, Duval County School Board!  :)

If that happens, let's just hope that Sgarey123 doesn't go in his war chest to pull out his Confederate uniform and extra muskets.

Now to our recent commentary by the folks at "Friends of Forrest" you may want to give the rhetoric a rest.  How about it there Mr. Nelson, Mr. Brody and especially D.F. Buddy Harris?  You have failed to make a good argument which supports keeping the name of a Nathan B. Forrest on one of our high schools.  Guess most folk today don't cotton to honoring slave holders, murderers or KKK founders.  Who would have thunk it?  lol  Interesting also to see that among those who signed a petition to keep the name were C.C. Powell, downtown developer and former KKK leader, along with W.W. Gay, Miller Electric owner and surprisingly former council member Michael Corrigan.  Shoot Michael, what is up with that?  There is supposedly a petition supporting keeping the name of Forrest and other well known business owners names are on it.  Perhaps someone should get a copy and post the names.  Maybe by doing so we can have a better clarified view of what and who may be holding Jacksonville back in more ways than one. 

We will need to come up with an acronym for this "new" intolerant bunch.  Those that think one piece of culture is better than another. Enough to dishonor a man's memory with baseless accusation.

So much for grace....and local flavor. But you guys don't really care about that do you?

Please visit Detriot and see our future....it will look the same except it will be in the South.

Right Sgarey123.  No one here cares one whit about honoring a man named Nathan B. Forrest who created the KKK, ordered the murder of hundreds, was a slave hunter and slave holder.  We are completely lacking in tolerance. By the way, did you turn in that petition with the full names on it to the School Board?  If so I will make a public records request for it. This has been most unusual and in it's own way a sort of interesting psychological study.  Looks like southern history is doomed.    lol

No loss here. I won.  I soundly beat you all on every point.  If people ever read this they will see that...

I had no real way to stop the tide. This was all I could do. I could only hope the School board would read it.

You have the national media posting untrue things...you have a group out there changing every Wikipedia site that has DCSB or Forrest on it saying they endorse the KKK. Sad....ugly....tactics...more than likely you have a trumped up survey as well.

Can you please post the location of the newly created petition to keep the name? I would love to sign it. 

Nathan Bedford Forrest is the low hanging fruit here.  He is the most difficult to defend.  You will not find the rest of the schools so easy to rename.  In fact I bet you see a surge or people wanting to join heritage clubs now. Of course almost everyone has moved away that would care.  They will either flee or they will become more vocal.  Detroit here we come.

I know this much. It is fairly certain the SAC council knew this would happen. They were allowed to option out. It is also fairly certain the proponents of this knew it would go this route which is why they did not bother showing up at the SAC meeting.  I notice the SAC meeting "delayed" the vote for a month.  Did you guys know too?

So we have a new KKK. One that has organized and shown strategy for manipulating the system and the public,

We can only hope for the next Mr. Stetson?  I hope he shows up soon.

Remember this though....Left wing ideals supported by intolerance, exclusion of thought, and a eradication of regionalism is on the way to a new fascism. A leftist Conservatism.  You all fall into that category at this moment. Remember balance is key to growth and prosperity....

http://www.news4jax.com/news/board-votes-to-initiate-forrest-high-name-change/-/475880/22877328/-/ti6d3cz/-/index.html

So now the real circus begins.... :)  I had fun debating. I hope I am wrong and it stops at one school.  Keep on supporting this nationalism over your region and state....add intolerence...speach codes....guess what you have folks?

Delusional disorder

Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness involving psychosis. Psychosis is the inability to tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of delusional disorder is the presence of delusions -- unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted.

Grandiose: A person with this type of delusional disorder has an over-inflated sense of self-worth, power, knowledge, or identity. The person might believe he or she has a great talent or has made an important discovery

http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/delusional-disorder

Sgarey123 pegging the name change advocates as intolerant is priceless. That was a good laugh. Thank you!

This is copied directly from the Harper's Weekly News, for April 30,1864

No apologist rewrite of history or excuse making can change the truth of what happen.


THE MASSACRE AT FORT
PILLOW.

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible MASSACRE AT FORT PILLOW. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the " superior civilization" of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades ; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows :

On the 12th inst. the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 P.M., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including two 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers.

Diane...it describes you perfectly! You should seek help considering your part of the debate was probably the most worthless of all of them and you think it was sooooo intelligent.

You should consult Ocklawaha about the above propaganda and just how acurate or abnormal that was....just so you know General Sherman himself exonerated Lt. General Nathan Bedford Forrest for this Battle.   

Of course Ocklawaha probably wont respond because you will accuse him of being a member of the KKK. Foolish.

Its all water off the back of a duck now.

Sure it does Sgarey, sure it does.  lol  By the way Ock and I are very dear friends and I am afraid he would not agree with the above judgement about my competence.  lmao  You really are a mess, I'll give you that.  Of course you are the sane and "tolerant" one and the rest of us are a "mob of fools" and "intolerant" to boot so you tell us.   Makes sense to me.   ::)  It's all of us, yes.....all of us.....

Now about that petition you want to sign in support of keeping the Forrest name, they are requiring that you sign it with your actual legal name. You already know that though don't you, as well as you know the Museum of Southern History and the Friends of Forrest group?  Seeing as how you have not posted a single word under you own name on this thread, how is it you will be able to come from behind the computer screen into the open and sign something that will tell the world how you feel and put your name to it?  Of course you could man up and put your name to your writings here.  Why don't you do that or are you not really serious about all that you have dumped online here?

Here's another high school naming controversy out in Cali. In this case, the backlash is the over name of the mascot.

www.ktla.com/2013/11/07/coachella-valley-arab-high-school-mascot-called-gross-stereotyping-2/#aszz2k6dIELCH

Quote from: I-10east on November 08, 2013, 08:09:34 PM
Here's another high school naming controversy out in Cali. In this case, the backlash is the over name of the mascot.

www.ktla.com/2013/11/07/coachella-valley-arab-high-school-mascot-called-gross-stereotyping-2/#aszz2k6dIELCH

Well at least they didn't name the school "The Arab".;) I am sure this is meant to honor the history of the Arab people in the area, you know....by extension seeing as how Arabia is part of the world.  Now they want to kick
"The Arab" out of the school in Hollywood Hills.  How intolerant!  Wait until Sgarey123 gets wind of this.

(sarcasm)

I know that they had to play this song in pep-rallies some years back. Sorry I couldn't resist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuAw77J8_Y

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 08, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
This is copied directly from the Harper's Weekly News, for April 30,1864

No apologist rewrite of history or excuse making can change the truth of what happen.


THE MASSACRE AT FORT
PILLOW.

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible MASSACRE AT FORT PILLOW. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the " superior civilization" of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades ; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows :

On the 12th inst. the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 P.M., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including two 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers.

This is an article that was posted in a Union newspaper.  It's unfortunate that it's being considered irrefutable fact.  Probably a more accurate source for what happened at Fort Pillow would be the Congressional Record.  According to that, Mr Forrest was brought before a panel for possible war crimes, and was exonerated.  He didn't actually "immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks;" rather, he demanded the Fort's occupants' surrender.  They refused to surrender.  This was war; Forrest was tasked with taking the fort; if there was no surrender, then he had to keep fighting them.  Probably the wrongdoer in this situation was the leader at the Fort, who fled and left the soldiers to fend for themselves -- telling them that surrender was not an option.
If the Duval County School Board researches the biography of N B Forrest and determines that he should not have a school named after him, then that's a decision made fairly.  It isn't fair to bombard them with sensationalism (NBF is NOT the founder of the KKK), and make decisions based on that.  If the name is changed, it will be exciting to see the high school become an "A" school the following year, since this is apparently the problem with the school.

Quote from: I-10east on November 08, 2013, 08:43:11 PM
I know that they had to play this song in pep-rallies some years back. Sorry I couldn't resist.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuAw77J8_Y

Simply a celebration of Arab culture right?  :P

Quote from: ForrestGrad on November 08, 2013, 08:55:25 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 08, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
This is copied directly from the Harper's Weekly News, for April 30,1864

No apologist rewrite of history or excuse making can change the truth of what happen.


THE MASSACRE AT FORT
PILLOW.

We give on page 284 a sketch of the horrible MASSACRE AT FORT PILLOW. The annals of savage warfare nowhere record a more inhuman, fiendish butchery than this, perpetrated by the representatives of the " superior civilization" of the States in rebellion. It can not be wondered at that our officers and soldiers in the West are determined to avenge, at all opportunities, the cold-blooded murder of their comrades ; and yet we can but contemplate with pain the savage practices which rebel inhumanity thus forces upon the service. The account of the massacre as telegraphed from Cairo is as follows :

On the 12th inst. the rebel General Forrest appeared before Fort Pillow, near Columbus, Kentucky, attacking it with considerable vehemence. This was followed up by frequent demands for its surrender, which were refused by Major Booth, who commanded the fort. The fight was then continued up until 3 P.M., when Major Booth was killed, and the rebels, in large numbers, swarmed over the intrenchments. Up to that time comparatively few of our men had been killed; but immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks, including the wounded. Both white and black were bayoneted, shot, or sabred; even dead bodies were horribly mutilated, and children of seven and eight years, and several negro women killed in cold blood. Soldiers unable to speak from wounds were shot dead, and their bodies rolled down the banks into the river. The dead and wounded negroes were piled in heaps and burned, and several citizens, who had joined our forces for protection, were killed or wounded. Out of the garrison of six hundred only two hundred remained alive. Three hundred of those massacred were negroes; five were buried alive. Six guns were captured by the rebels, and carried off, including two 10-pound Parrotts, and two 12-pound howitzers.

This is an article that was posted in a Union newspaper.  It's unfortunate that it's being considered irrefutable fact.  Probably a more accurate source for what happened at Fort Pillow would be the Congressional Record.  According to that, Mr Forrest was brought before a panel for possible war crimes, and was exonerated.  He didn't actually "immediately upon occupying the place the rebels commenced an indiscriminate butchery of the whites and blacks;" rather, he demanded the Fort's occupants' surrender.  They refused to surrender.  This was war; Forrest was tasked with taking the fort; if there was no surrender, then he had to keep fighting them.  Probably the wrongdoer in this situation was the leader at the Fort, who fled and left the soldiers to fend for themselves -- telling them that surrender was not an option.
If the Duval County School Board researches the biography of N B Forrest and determines that he should not have a school named after him, then that's a decision made fairly.  It isn't fair to bombard them with sensationalism (NBF is NOT the founder of the KKK), and make decisions based on that.  If the name is changed, it will be exciting to see the high school become an "A" school the following year, since this is apparently the problem with the school.

There a a number of biographies and accounts of what happened but you know what, the request for change is now "officially" in the works.  Commenting here is not going to stop the process.  You guys gave it your best shot but looks to me like no one on the school board bought your version of history.  Time to move on.

Sure would like Ock to respond to your quote. Your competence is normally effective but this time we disagree and I found your tactics trivial, emotional, and bully-boyish. You were like the prisoner in Trading Places (Movie) that said "Yeah".  Not one real conceptual counter! I did not know that much about the museum though.  I will check it out.

Stephen played siege tactics but at least he conceded that we are ALL southern. I can respect that but not the KKK drama. Lakelander and Kbhanson were at least working with me but they are set in position and wont change either. 

Debate in front of people isn't discovery for most due to ego.  Its for the audience. I did learn though.

I do respect anything that has to do with Historical preservation. I hope you keep that up for more than just one group.

I love my home. I have  learned a lot through being tolerant. I used to be you. I used to think the opposition had no right to speak or think.
Now I accept all opinions as long as they are logical. 

Hey forrestgrad....its not over. Read the article......vitti has to vote and then board again.

We can still learn from past generations. I miss them. They knew more collectively than we do. We are learning now what they learned in the 30's and 40's.  I bet the lot of you has never even been in a fight or been hungry.

Who I am is not important to the debate really but if you post that link. I will sign it! you can narrow it down from there. :) 

Sgarey123.  My comments were geared directly in response to the prattle you offered as fact in tandem with your declarations of being the only one in the discussion who loves Jacksonville as well as referring to everyone who had a view different than your own as a foolish mob, haters of their own southern history, intolerant, bullies, trivial, emotional etc. etc. etc.  I don't tolerate that sort of nonsense. 

Now as far as the southern thing and roots, you have no idea of my thoughts about the "entirety" of southern history nor how much of a roll my family and ancestors played in the creation of that history before and during the Civil War, including two Confederate Generals as well as Confederate soldiers in the Calvary and Infantry. Some survived the war many others did not.

This discussion was all about one man and one school. You claim Forrest had no connection to the KKK yet other sources and documents say he was it's creator.  You also say his hand was pushed and he had to murder all of the men, mostly black, in Fort Pillow, cause well, it was war.  There is plenty in the way of documentation that indicates Forrest ordered the attack on men trapped in the fort and bottom line is if he did or didn't this all happened on his watch and the buck stops with him.  He was also a slave owner and slave catcher, documents and history also support this truth.  But most importantly he had nothing to do with Jacksonville, nothing.

The war was fought, the south lost and that is that.  Having the name of a man with such a dubious past on a Jacksonville school does nothing to preserve southern history and it is foolish to suggest that it does or portray a name change as a precursor to the demise of southern history and heritage or as you put it southern flavor.  I am very proud to be born and bred southern with family roots going back to the first arrivals on this continent of English/Scott's who made their way into Virginia and throughout the south, Carolina, Tenn, Ga, Louisiana,Mississippi, Texas, Florida and many other states. One of my ancestors was one of the generals sent to Olustee. I honor those of my ancestors who were willing to risk their lives for a cause they believed in.  They were brave individuals, but that does not mean I have to honor the covenant of slavery or the other gross manifestations of the time which included the creation of the KKK.  My great great grandfather served in the Confederate Infantry, survived the war and then returned to rebuild his church that was burned down.  Was he a bad man? No.  Did he have slaves?  No  Yet he fought next to his friends and relatives through a deep sense of loyalty to those he loved.  I get that about this war and I honestly think that in your eyes this is still about loyalty to relations in the south while negating the horrors that the conflict inflicted upon both sides.  History cannot be changed but as enlightened and evolving, people we should be insightful and mature enough to understand that history is a fluid thing and now is the time in history to admit that much of what was fought for by our ancestors was in it's essence flatly wrong and that statement is directed to the idea that anyone has the right to enslave another person for their own enrichment.  The pain, devastation and debasing of human beings at that time in history should be remembered but fighting to keep them enslaved is something I will never honor even considering the time in history this all took place.  So if you are looking for some sort of concession on my part to your beliefs, it's not going to happen.  I love my heritage and my people deeply and at the same time can fully acknowledge that they were mistaken in some of their beliefs. 

On another note, if you want to sign a petition supporting the Forrest name you will have to do your own homework.  I do not intend to try and deduce who you may be depending upon those signatures, I don't need to because I know who you are.  I just think you should be man enough to put your real name to everything that you insisted is fact. That by the was has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with standing behind what you say in the same open way I have and you are clearly unwilling to do so, which I find fascinating. 

I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

Quote from: Jaxson on November 08, 2013, 10:18:07 PM
I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

This is another aspect of this argument that the apologists simply refuse to see or acknowledge John and it truly is a shame.  If one really cares about community they should have the depth of character to understand that keeping a thorn in the side of Jacksonville for more than fifty years now over this naming and what it meant is something that we should do and now the process is underway.  It's a healing thing which is long overdue and frankly I don't think some will ever understand that.

I think you are correct Stephen.  :)

I didn't get "name calley." But I did get an opinion finally from the cat!

Funny how until I called her out she was more interested in who I was than what I had to say?  Why is that? Ms. Melendez? Now you know apparently?  How is that?

Over the years I have watched as incremental changes took place. Each time it failed they would wait a few years and try again and again. As the older people have died off these changes are speeding up. Some good, some really bad. This one is bad.

I am not ashamed of anything I have said but I have no reason to give you the information. "Do your own homework." I hear this site is famous for that right?

By the way:

1) I never claimed NBF had no connection to KKK. You are delirious. Your friend will know if he did or not. I always heard he disowned the club. I think that is enough to pass. 
2) I never said his hand was pushed. I did say it was war. I also said the Yankees were far more cruel than he ever was. Of course they invaded his land but I guess he lost so what he did was bad and all the others throughout history are just angels now?

We have strung up one man's legacy for no other reason than a little national attention. We are embarrassed by our forefathers decisions.  His favorite town that is now 90% black renamed his park where he is buried, a tourist attraction even. Why? Because some buffoon non-existent club claims him as a founder (which is apparently not known as a fact)? 

Now Jacksonville has been tapped to legitimize this? How is it even possible? It smells like Federal influence and rotten.  Now 54 classes of students from there are going to be disenfranchised. 54 years of students! That makes it historical and special to those of us from public schools.

The whole things stinks and the best thing of all is this site has no influence whatsoever. If it did then my points would have hit home.

Post again...I will too.  You are all wrong and are opening Pandora's box. Hopefully Vitti will come to his senses.

7 generations of Dares.....and they all completely saw into the future on what you say is acceptable to think. Nice work making that one up.


I do not have to prove anything. You proved it with your own words. You are intolerant of a culture that you lived within your whole life. You prove this by judging a known great man based on what some others think outside of Jax. He passed the test just 6 years ago. Why now? How?

You beat kimberly daniels without getting thrown in jail and I wont hold this craziness against you. However, it is not right to allow this to be done to such a man. He deserves better and so do the 54 classes who will not have a high school name in common with future generations of students. It is a lynch mob....started and endorsed by outsiders with very little affiliation to our history and no affiliation to our town. We should not have to apologize! This is our Culture!

One more thing:   

Quote
The takeaway from polyneux comment's to me boils down to a single comment in which they say "I'm of the opinion that once a school is named it should stay named".  Ya see the thing is that this is the opinion of one person, the poster.  Right now there are over 156,000 signatures that say the name should be changed along with a poll that also said 80% of the people of Jacksonville want the name change as well.  It would appear that in the opinion of most folks, up to 80% that the name needs to go. That is what really matters. 

80%?  Untrue!Are you getting paid for this?  This is pure cr@p. This comes back from the first guy to oppose. NOT TRUE! How can you even show your face in this town? Are you getting paid for this? Holy Cr@p!

One more thing...Please post...but use a "free proxy". Google it. That way madame "turnonherownpeople" wont be able to cash in on your identity. She won't ask you if you have "P.O Box."  Free speech...yeah bs.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 08, 2013, 10:28:28 PM

Quote from: Jaxson on November 08, 2013, 10:18:07 PM
I think that the context in which Nathan Bedford Forrest High School was named can be more distressing than the man it was intended to honor.  Saint or sinner, Nathan Bedford Forrest's name was put on a school at a time when the centennial of the Civil War was approaching AND when many Southerners disagreed with the Brown v. Board of Education ruling by the Supreme Court.  If indeed the school naming was intended to be a thumb of the nose at the federal government and not a sincere tribute to someone historic, I see the need to change a school's name not for the sake of being 'politically correct,' but for building bridges between the races to show that we have progressed as a school district.

This is another aspect of this argument that the apologists simply refuse to see or acknowledge John and it truly is a shame.  If one really cares about community they should have the depth of character to understand that keeping a thorn in the side of Jacksonville for more than fifty years now over this naming and what it meant is something that we should do and now the process is underway.  It's a healing thing which is long overdue and frankly I don't think some will ever understand that.

Sadly I think there is an unspeakable motivation for many who want to preserve the name.  Their minds are closed to understanding the need for healing in our city's race relations.  They don't want the healing if it is going to touch their grand southern heritage.  And so the debate is futile.  You just can not persuade a mind that is closed.

Ok...I changed it. I can respect the rules. Now I am off to check my p.o. box.

Finally had time to check links....video was gone but learned that there is NO KKK in Jax.

It would seem the activist have us worried about an imaginary monster.

This is not "racial healing."  This is racial domination.

I have seen true integration work with a confederate named school. Changing the name will not help the kids. In fact Forrest if studied is a man of honor and bravery that kids should admire.  We have a black American as President and Mayor. The children are not racial victims and changing the name of the school instead of teaching who the man was is detrimental.

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville.

Word on the street is that some favor the name 'Westside High" as a NBF replacement; That sounds way too bland IMO. I think that they might as well change the mascot name 'Rebels' if the NBF name changes. I know what they could replace Rebels with, how bout the Redskins?...oh wait....

^ hahaha ... Nailed it  ;D

On the spot, fellas!  I don't know how this farce will play out but I can guarantee you one thing, the ego driven, self-appointed saviors of the "offended" will be moving on to the next available "cause" to insert themselves into.  Unfortunately, it has become a sad pattern of a self-centered culture.

Quote from: jaxnative on November 10, 2013, 01:07:03 PM
On the spot, fellas!  I don't know how this farce will play out but I can guarantee you one thing, the ego driven, self-appointed saviors of the "offended" will be moving on to the next available "cause" to insert themselves into.  Unfortunately, it has become a sad pattern of a self-centered culture.

Self appointed saviors and a farce!  Seriously?  If it were not for people who sensed an imbalance or wrong in society we would still have slavery, no under ground railway, wife beating would still be legal, children would not have schools to attend, women would not have the vote, hate crimes would still be legal and so many more egregious actions and behaviors would still plague America.  God bless the "self appointed saviors" who sense a wrong and do all they can to right it.  That's the way a healthy society works by the way.  No person or persons are the chosen ones or those with a rightful voice.  That right belongs to everyone.  Try and remember that when you dismiss what others do to change a wrong, real or perceived.  As it stands this issues was passed unanimously by the school board and supported by community members and is happening with the proper parameters of the School Board.  That's the reality here.

Hi!

So happy to be back after a short break. :)

So tell me folks what organization is behind this? Is it metroJacksonville.com?  It seems you guys are part of the group doing this? How do we join?

I just want to know who to talk to around here.  The fact is Nathan Bedford Forrest High school really should be not be renamed. We all know this...you guys have trumped up some emotional reasons and fabricated a few things. You have even pulled out a few interesting slices of history to create distance.  You have connected dots that never existed.  Now you want to change the name of a high school that has been around for 54 years. 

I ask why? what is it really? I don't want to hear he isn't part of Jacksonville (there are plenty of other schools named that way). I do not want to hear that Jacksonville is not part of the South or Confederacy (just not true).  I do not want to hear the unproven "middle finger" theory to the Supreme Court.  I do not want to hear the three letters "KKK" ever again.  I seriously want to know the real reason, WHY?  No more propaganda!

I know that this will make some Black people happier after this is done as it serves an undeserved revenge theme. I get this one as I have watched Hollywood and TV misrepresent fact after fact. They covered up black people across the board in history (Confederate participation too). 

It will make the national news happier because they will have another "Race based" story. They get the best ratings.

It will make you happier because people from up North won't sneer at our town in ignorance. I guess left wing closed minded people will be happy since they have destroyed another regional icon.

None of the above groups benefits are enough for a change. It just seems odd.

It does not help the kids. It teaches them the wrong lessons on many levels. It disenfranchises them from past graduates. It acts like they attend a sub standard school. It teaches hate. It destroys school spirit. There are endless negative effects for the children that I foresee.

It does not facilitate or promote the values of the Civil Rights movement. If anything it is starting another Civil Rights issue.  Should we taint that movement with the cleaning of Confederate influence out of the South? Revenge?  It does not follow any logic on a philosophical level.

All I can figure is someone is wanting to look good. Who? 

You know people told me voting for Obama or Mayor Brown was the right thing to do. That we needed to "heal." That by electing Black Americans to office it would show the 30% of the population that they were represented. We all did that. We elected them. What is the result?  Do they seriously want to teach us that we made a mistake here?

Now regional icons that have been in place for decades are on trial! They are dead but they are on trial.  It does not matter if they had a trial already and won. It is time to face judgment again!  They will be held to modern values that we spent centuries cultivating.

Help me out here...give me some answers? I need them because it looks bad for the future.

I said no more propaganda.....The below 43 black freedman soldiers in his Calvary were shooting the Yankees at Fort Pillow as well.  Go back to my post and answer the core question! This incident is not enough to change the name of the school. He was exonerated of mis-conduct back then by Congress! I believe that matters more than what they are trying to conjure up now.

Your videos are tainted.

Furthermore, are you guys going to go after all the other schools? Might be nice to know now rather than later.

Read below:   

Forrest : Memphis' first White Civil Rights Advocate


Lt. General Nathan Bedford Forrest (1821-1877) was a renowned Southern military leader and strategist during the War Between the States. During the Civil War, Forrest's Confederate cavalry wrecked havoc among Union forces throughout the mid-South. He gained worldwide fame from his many battlefield successes, but the wartime heroics have overshadowed his post-war work as a community leader and civil rights advocate. He fought fiercely on the battlefield, yet was a compassionate man off the field. After the war, Forrest worked tirelessly to build the New South and to promote employment for black Southerners. Forrest was known near and far as a great general, and was a well-respected citizen by both blacks and whites alike.

The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (predecessor to the NAACP) was organized by Southern blacks after the war to promote black voting rights, etc. One of their early conventions was held in Memphis and Mr. Forrest was invited to be the guest speaker, the first white man ever to be invited to speak to the Association.

After the Civil War, General Forrest made a speech to the Memphis City Council (then called the Board of Aldermen). In this speech he said that there was no reason that the black man could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or any other job equal to whites. They were part of our community and should be involved and employed as such just like anyone else. In another speech to Federal authorities, Forrest said that many of the ex-slaves were skilled artisans and needed to be employed and that those skills needed to be taught to the younger workers. If not, then the next generation of blacks would have no skills and could not succeed and would become dependent on the welfare of society.

Forrest's words went unheeded. The Memphis & Selma Railroad was organized by Forrest after the war to help rebuild the South's transportation and to build the 'new South'. Forrest took it upon himself to hire blacks as architects, construction engineers and foremen, train engineers and conductors, and other high level jobs. In the North, blacks were prohibited from holding such jobs. When the Civil War began, Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army. All 44 agreed. One later deserted; the other 43 served faithfully until the end of the war.

Though they had many chances to leave, they chose to remain loyal to the South and to Forrest. Part of General Forrest's command included his own Escort Company, his Green Berets, made up of the very best soldiers available. This unit, which varied in size from 40-90 men, was the elite of the cavalry. Eight of these picked men were black soldiers and all served gallantly and bravely throughout the war. All were armed with at least 2 pistols and a rifle. Most also carried two additional pistols in saddle holsters. At war's end, when Forrest's cavalry surrendered in May 1865, there were 65 black troopers on the muster roll. Of the soldiers who served under him, Forrest said of the black troops: Finer Confederates never fought.

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

Your theories to re-brand Jacksonville and persecute Forrest have been well covered and answered.  I will attempt to teach you the answers to your additional questions. You have yet to answer even one of mine. Why are you on a public forum if you can not answer my questions?

War crimes? No. They were asked to surrender the fort and did not. The leader of the opposing force fled.  Congress Exonerated him.  You realize this was the bloodiest war ever experienced up to that time right? Gatling guns were introduced and so was Grape shot in cannon. They experienced 30% losses over and over in battles. Today we would think 10% was horrifying.  Guess who had all the fancy toys? Guess who had all the immigrants to throw in front of bullets? The Union did.  Also Guess who invaded? Not the Confederates

Your notion is preposterous and you are a revisionist if you really think the way you do.  Jacksonville didn't just sympathize with Confederacy. It was part of it.  You know, a large number of Confederates chose to live in Jacksonville after the war too.  Florida was the third State to leave the Union. It was before a few others you would consider "more southern."  Check this reference out:  http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Yankee_in_a_Confederate_Town.html?id=b-miff6lMU0C  The author sure thought of Jacksonville to be Confederate! It is in the title.  Give up on this crazy notion.

Confederate is not an evil word. It does not "immediately" place you in a hate group. Why do you hate it so much yourself?

Now answer my questions:

1) Are the other schools names after Confederates going to be next?
2) Why do this at all? See earlier post
3) Who really wants to happen? Who is funding this movement? Who funds this website?
4) Who does this make look good?

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 11, 2013, 04:27:59 AM

Now answer my questions:

First, thanks for giving us credit for leading the movement to rename Forrest, but we're not responsible for that. What we are responsible for is providing an online venue for debate and discussion on this topic and several others to take place for all to see.  Anyway, I answered most of your questions pages ago. 

Here's a quick review:

Quote1) Are the other schools names after Confederates going to be next?

No. not that I'm aware of. As stated many times, this whole Forrest renaming issue has nothing to do with fighting to erase Confederate history.

Quote2) Why do this at all? See earlier post

See pages and pages of comments about what was taking place in this city when the Forrest name was selected. It's time to correct errors of our local past and move on.

Quote3) Who really wants to happen? Who is funding this movement? Who funds this website?

A. Evidently, the majority of the local community.
B. Who needs money to fund a movement when you can take advantage of technology, common sense and social media?
C. MJ's funding comes out of its board member's pockets, donated time for what we see as a community service and online advertising revenue. See the "About Us" section. However, why does any of this matter?

Quote4) Who does this make look good?

I don't think this issue is about making anyone look good.  It's about correcting mistakes/injustices of our local past and moving on.

Maybe guys like you shouldn't attack Nathan Bedford Forrest on Veterans Day.  He is still regarded as the perfect soldier and will be studied by military folks forever.

I skimmed the book and yes I knew it had numerous things that you would use for your argument in it.  Please note that the delegate from Jacksonville was also the only one to write out "Jacksonville" next to his name on the secession document.  The town was Confederate. Period. Its in the dang title for Pete's sake! It may have had some Union Sympathizers in it but the core of your argument is gone.  The resource shows that....

I want to know the real reason because everyone of the reasons you guys have listed are fabrication that can be fixed with education. Education that would heal this City! Changing the name hurts the city.  Do you not see that?

I ask about funding of the site because I see clear bias going on...the main players are working together too. If I was not here this thread would be half as long and logic would have been routed.  The true racists are not smart enough to understand the real issue at stake here. They just like NBF like a football team and they do not even have their facts straight.

I noticed in the news that almost no one for changing the name showed up to the SAC meeting. This means a group of very dedicated people knew ahead of time that the meeting did not matter. This is scary. It shows more than a bunch of people want the name changed. It shows organized and covert group movement and behavior. 

Lakelander, I hope you are right. I hope that on this Veterans day your promise that the other soldiers we named our schools for legacies are safe.  I hope  the Shields we bear them on proudly are sturdy and their memory and influence in this Confederate town are remembered.

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 11, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
I want to know the real reason because everyone of the reasons you guys have listed are fabrication that can be fixed with education. Education that would heal this City! Changing the name hurts the city.  Do you not see that?

What exactly is fabrication about the atmosphere of 1959 in Jacksonville and what do you have to present as factual data proving a case of fabrication?

QuoteI ask about funding of the site because I see clear bias going on...the main players are working together too. If I was not here this thread would be half as long and logic would have been routed.

It's my opinion, but I believe your commentary in this thread actually helps prove why the name of this particular school should be changed. Anyway, as far as organization of MetroJacksonville.com goes, this is a privately operated website where all sorts of ideas and topics are allowed to be debated on.  Thus, every individual will be challenged to prove the basis of their opinions.  That's something that hasn't been largely allowed in Jacksonville in recent decades.

Just look at this thread. No one has tried to muzzle your opinions in favor of a different storyline. Any Joe Blow can check out this thread and read it to solidify, form or change their previous thoughts on this particular topic, based on commentary from different perspectives.

QuoteLakelander, I hope you are right. I hope that on this Veterans day your promise that the other soldiers we named our schools for legacies are safe.

School name or not, Forrest's legacy is safe and is not changing.

QuoteI hope  the Shields we bear them on proudly are sturdy and their memory and influence in this Confederate town are remembered.

Our Confederate portion of our local history isn't changing.  Neither are the other aspects of Jacksonville's rich history that suggest it was much more than a Confederacy haven.

QuoteRenaming is bad for Jacksonville.

F schools are bad for Jacksonville. Spending billions on an Outer Beltway to send jobs and growth into Clay and St. Johns County is bad for Jacksonville. Not collecting a mobility fee is bad for Jacksonville. Not maintaining our public parks is bad for Jacksonville.  Having a dysfunctional transit system is bad for Jacksonville. Ignoring local history is bad for Jacksonville. Losing Forrest's name on a Westside high school isn't going to make or break our city.

The Fabrication--- You guys are asking me to disprove what you have not proven yourself.  A clear trend of schools named after military leaders from the South (that region you live in) was what was being followed. No schools were built in 30's (no money) or 40s (WWII).

Forrest Legacy--  The school name is part of it. Renaming it also lends weight to the morons in Memphis cannibalizing one of the Cities heroes.

Confederate Town - Stephen....it was "Confederate!"  We lost sons to the war on the side of the "Confederacy."  We adapted to whatever came our way. That was smart. Stop saying that nonsense.  How about we say we were both...even if we had no Union soldiers from Jacksonville.

F schools - You have a point on that paragraph but the schools name is not why people are moving away. They are leaving because we have broken the stream of generational values.  I submit it is because we do not respect our history. Our communities have been dis-joined from the schools and also our history.  Trust me when I say going to the school your Father and Grandfather went means something. 

Happy Veterans Day. Confederate or Union they were both fighting for their version of the Constitution. Remember that....and teach it to your youth.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 11, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
The Fabrication--- You guys are asking me to disprove what you have not proven yourself.  A clear trend of schools named after military leaders from the South (that region you live in) was what was being followed. No schools were built in 30's (no money) or 40s (WWII).

What Jax was going through around the time of the school's opening is as much fact as you're going to find in this discussion.  You also keep mentioning a clear trend of schools named after military leaders from the South is what was being followed. 

Although this has nothing to do with renaming Forrest, can you provide a contiguous list of Duval County school openings and names from the 1920s through the 1970s?  Yes, we have some schools that are named after Confederate generals, but I'm 100% sure there's no continuous trend between the 1920s schools and those in the late 1950s and 60s. 

Southern soldiers with school names:

William Duval 1873- PS#1? commanded volunteer force in Seminole War, first non-military Governor, Southerner
Andrew Jackson 1928 - PS#35 Commander in  Seminole war, First Governor,  Definately southerner
Robert E. Lee 1928 - PS#33 Confederate General - Southerner
Thomas Jefferson Elementary - #48 1936? Antebellum Southerner (the original)
Kirby Smith Middle PS#25 - 1923 - Confederate General - southerner
Forrest - 1958 - PS#241 Confederate General - Southerner
Joseph Stillwell 1964 -  PS#219 US General Florida native - Southerner
Jeb Stuart - 1966? #207 Confederate
Jefferson Davis - #216  Confederate President
Stonewall Jackson - #234 Confederate General


These are off the top of my head with no further research. All were southern...7 confederates. I am sure you could ask for a list from public records.  Every school had a PS# so a listing of those would give you the order as well. The PS#s are strange because they jump around a bit but the sorta stick to the timeline.

They did not build many schools in the 30s or 40s due to other hardships.

There are loads of Black American named schools. There are far more than 7. I think we have a really good balance.

Here is the list I snagged from website but it is missing a lot of schools that faded away. I think the rules I quoted earlier are pretty close. ( IE. Regional military,location, Local service, Donation)

Rutherford, Mattie V.   8-Jun   6
West Riverside    PreK-5   12
Grand Park   12-Jun   14
Brentwood   K-5   15
Ortega   K-5   16
Central Riverside   K-5   18
Upson, Ruth N.   PreK-5   19
Fishweir   PreK-5   20
Morgan, Annie R.   PreK-5   21
Kirby-Smith   8-Jun   25
Landon   8-Jun   31
Marine Science Center   12-Sep   32
Lee, Robert E.   12-Sep   33
Jackson, Andrew   12-Sep   35
Kite, Henry F.   K-5   37
Baldwin M/H   12-Jun   38
Duval Halfway House    Alt   39
Gateway Community Services    Alt   39
Impact Halfway House    Alt   43
Tiger S.H.O.P.    Alt   44
Dinsmore   K-5   45
Arlington E   K-5   46
Jefferson, Thomas   K-5   48
Duval Detention Center    Alt   49
Whitehouse    K-5   51
Johnson, James Weldon Academic & Career Training Center   12-Sep   54
Garden City   K-5   59
Oceanway M   8-Jun   62
Fletcher M   8-Jun   63
Hogan-Spring Glen   PreK-5   64
Atlantic Beach   PreK-5   65
DuPont, Alfred   8-Jun   66
Venetia   K-5   68
Lake Shore    8-Jun   69
North Shore    PreK-5   70
Hendricks Avenue   K-5   71
Spring Park   PreK-5   72
Love, John    PreK-5   73
Lake Forest    PreK-5   74
Paxon School for Advanced Studies   12-Sep   75
Southside Estates   PreK-5   76
Hyde Park   K-5   77
Biltmore   PreK-5   78
Ramona Boulevard   K-5   79
San Pablo    K-5   80
PACE Center for Girls    Alt   81
Love Grove   PreK-5   82
San Jose   K-5   83
Bayview   PreK-5   84
Lake Lucina   K-5   85
Parker, Terry    12-Sep   86
Englewood E   K-5   87
Stockton, John N.C.   K-5   88
Woodland Acres    PreK-5   89
Englewood H   12-Sep   90
Mathis, Sallye B.   PreK-5   91
Butler, Eugene   8-Jun   92
Pinedale   PreK-5   93
Windy Hill    K-5   94
Pearson, Rutledge H.   PreK-5   95
Ribault H   12-Sep   96
Cedar Hills   PreK-5   97
Timucuan    K-5   98
Highlands E   PreK-5   99
Long Branch   PreK-5   106
Anderson, Douglas   12-Sep   107
Tillis, Sadie    K-5   116
Evans, Saint Clair   PreK-5   124
Tolbert, Susie   5-Mar   128
Axson, J. Allen   PreK-5   141
Chaffee Trail   PreK-5   142
West Jacksonville   PreK-5   143
Jacksonville Beach   K-5   144
Darnell-Cookman   12-Jun   145
Gilbert, Matthew   8-Jun   146
Brown, Richard L.   K-5   148
Livingston, S. P.   PreK-5   149
New Berlin   PreK-5   150
Johnson, James Weldon   8-Jun   152
Stanton College Prep   12-Sep   153
Ford, John E.   PreK-8   154
Northwestern   8-Jun   155
Carver, George W.   PreK-5   158
Pine Forest    K-5   159
Waterleaf    K-5   160
Daniels, R. V.    K-2   162
Payne, Rufus E.   PreK-5   163
Mount Herman   PreK-12   164
Raines, William   12-Sep   165
Woodson, Carter G.   PreK-5   166
Hull, S. A.   PreK-5   169
Palm Avenue   12-Jun   170
Pre-Trial Detention Center    Alt   176
Hubbard House    Alt   182
Youth Crisis Center    Alt   182
AMI Kids of Jacksonville    Alt   185
Reynolds Lane    PreK-5   202
Kings Trail   K-5   203
Pickett   K-5   205
Brookview   K-5   206
Stuart, J.E.B.    8-Jun   207
Parkwood Heights   K-5   208
Holiday Hill   K-5   209
Oak Hill    PreK-5   210
Southside M   8-Jun   211
Ribault M   8-Jun   212
Arlington M   k-5   213
Hyde Grove   PreK-5   214
Justina Road   PreK-5   215
Davis, Jefferson    8-Jun   216
Brewer, Don   5-Mar   217
San Mateo   K-5   218
Stilwell, Joseph   8-Jun   219
King, Martin Luther   K-5   220
Normandy Village   K-5   221
Greenfield   PreK-5   222
Fletcher H   12-Sep   223
Wolfson, Samuel W.   12-Sep   224
Seabreeze   K-5   225
Crystal Springs   PreK-5   226
Mayport E   PreK-5   227
Merrill Road   PreK-2   228
Jacksonville Heights   K-5   229
Beauclerc   K-5   230
Kernan Trail   PreK-5   231
Chimney Lakes   K-5   232
Lone Star   K-5   233
Jackson, Stonewall   K-5   234
Fort Caroline E   K-5   235
Jones, Mamie Agnes   K-5   236
Sandalwood   12-Sep   237
Fort Caroline M   8-Jun   238
Sabal Palm    PreK-5   239
Arlington Heights   K-5   240
Forrest, Nathan B   12-Sep   241
Sheffield, Louis   K-5   242
Gregory Drive   K-5   243
Highlands M   8-Jun   244
Neptune Beach   PreK-5   246
Finegan, Joseph    K-5   247
White, Edward H.   12-Sep   248
Pine Estates   K-5   250
Alden Road   12-Jun   252
Mayport M   8-Jun   254
Enterprise   PreK-5   255
Landmark    8-Jun   256
Alimacani   PreK-5   257
Robinson, Andrew   PreK-5   262
Abess Park   PreK-5   263
MEAP. Roziers Chets Creek   k-5   264
First Coast   12-Sep   265
LaVilla   8-Jun   267
Biscayne   PreK-5   269
Oceanway E   K-5   270
Westview   PreK-8   274
Kernan   8-Jun   279
Peterson, Frank H.   12-Sep   280
Randolph, A. Philip   12-Sep   285

Sgarey123,

"Trend" is defined as a general direction in which something is developing or changing.

Synonyms include tendency, movement, drift, swing, shift, course, inclination, leaning, etc.  Nothing in the list you posted suggests "Trend" in naming schools after Confederate generals outside of the Great Depression.

Out of the dates posted, the naming of Forrest certainly seems somewhat isolated.  Nevertheless, the renaming of the school has little to do with Forrest representing the Confederacy. It's about the reasoning behind the school's naming and what that was intended to represent.  If anything, it's a show of disrespect to the guy you mentioned to have changed his views before his death.

Why does "southerner" only equate with white dudes? Lake, aren't you a "southerner"?

I can find 6 schools in Duval County named for Confederates:

Edmund Kirby-Smith Middle School (1923); Kirby-Smith was a local and an educator.
Robert E. Lee High School (1927)
Nathan Bedford Forrest High School (1959)
Jefferson Davis Middle School (1961)
Stonewall Jackson Elementary School (1965)
JEB Stuart Middle School (1966, split from Forrest)

The latter four were all founded after Brown vs. the Board and originally opened as segregated, whites-only schools. They're all located within miles of each other in the Westside suburbs. That's the trend here.

Quote from: Demosthenes on November 11, 2013, 10:49:17 PM
Why does "southerner" only equate with white dudes? Lake, aren't you a "southerner"?

Last time I checked. However, I'm learning I'm not because my background doesn't fit Sgarey123's definition, so I have no idea what I am.

okay so I go out on a limb and provide some data for you guys and you hop all over every small detail.  Go back in the thread if you do not understand why Lakelander wanted the info and why I said there was a trend.

The definition of "Southerner" was thoroughly discussed as well (its everyone in the Southern region).  However in this case we are talking Southern Regional early statehood to pre-WWI era military heroes.  For that choice you would only have so many people to choose from.  Those being USA Founders, pre-statehood leaders, Seminole wars leaders, and Civil war leaders in the 1920s. Florida was in Confederacy and therefore would chose heroes from Confederacy instead of Union for naming things.

Keep in mind that the term "Southern" also goes all the way back to the founders as an regional attitude of decentralized power (State's rights) vs centralized (Federalist).  To me it means you like collards and cornbread (culturally).  It means something different in many different contexts.   

There is a trend. I typed it up for you. Nathan Bedford was later but that by no means indicates proof of a middle finger theory.  A trend is more than 2...we have 7 and we have a few others that qualify. You had all the schools in 1920s...then you get the one in the late 30's. Then more in the late 40's...etc. etc...

The only reason I bring up Black American names is I do not want anyone to look at that list and not realize that the naming of the schools was not "spread around" to meet the needs of various sub cultures. Many of the names were chosen throughout the Civil Rights era around same time as Forrest High school.    Again, we are missing so many PS#s in that list too. If you noticed I put them in the order of PS#. It makes it sorta chronological.

I am glad that Confederate does not equal "founder of KKK" or War criminal.  NBF was not a war criminal. His alleged affiliation with  KKK was ended promptly when other chapters started doing things with which he did not agree.  These points are well worn out. 

You guys are welcome for the list. See if we can add dates to it and what each name means? I would love to see that information. 

Renaming the school is not the best tactics here. It will not improve this school. The system is the issue.

As Tacachale's post suggest, the only trend is an uptick in naming Westside schools after Brown vs the Board.  This trend pretty much suggest that naming and opening these all-white schools had significant racial undertones behind them.  Is this something you can agree with?  It's a stretch to keep suggesting that this is an attack on Confederate history.

The original contention was that if there was no trend then it was to spite the Brown vs. Board of Education to name the school Nathan Bedford Forrest. I provided a logical trend that started in the 1920s and was continued over the next few decades. Keep in mind that I provided the total list to show there were A LOT of other schools built right around these same schools with names honoring other subcultures in the south, honoring dedicated public service leaders, and most being named after each street or neighborhood.

The PS#s that are missing could provide additional insight.  Duval and Staton were the originals. They could be #1 and #2. There was an Eastside school #3....Anne Lyttle #4.  What was number 5? There are a lot of gaps. Some of the details on the names are not very detailed.

Its really cool stuff. It would make a heck of an article on this site. It could even be a book. The saddest thing of all that I encountered is that almost every school did not have the history of their name listed. Some did but most did not.  Each school should teach what it was named for? Its the whole purpose! Its why I like naming schools after heroes too.

Renaming would ruin the opportunity for all those students to learn this history. The arguments surrounding it...the drama! Its really is special. A gold mine for learning and classroom discussion.

The British could just wipe out all the things named after King Henry too. They do not do it though. It is great historical information. It is entertaining. We learn from it. We make deductions. Its special. 

They make money from it too.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 12, 2013, 12:18:36 AM
The original contention was that if there was no trend then it was to spite the Brown vs. Board of Education to name the school Nathan Bedford Forrest. I provided a logical trend that started in the 1920s and was continued over the next few decades.

Two schools named in the 1920s, and then a controversial, out of the blue naming 30 years later does not fit the definition of a trend.

QuoteThe PS#s that are missing could provide additional insight.  Duval and Staton were the originals. They could be #1 and #2. There was an Eastside school #3....Anne Lyttle #4.  What was number 5? There are a lot of gaps. Some of the details on the names are not very detailed.

I'm not sure school numbers were in order.  Isaiah Blocker Junior High opened the same year as Annie Lytle. However, it was public school 135 (or something like that). Located in Sugar Hill, Blocker was torn down years ago.  I don't know its history, but I assume it must have closed after desegregation.

Sgarey123, you said there was a trend to name schools after Southerners. That's true, as many schools are named for local figures, and Florida is part of the South. In terms of Confederates specifically, however, it's not true. There was no proliferation of schools named for Confederates before 1959; there were only two, and one of them was a local. Then, after 1959, we got four schools named for Confederates within 7 years. That's when the trend occurred.

And in the US we have George Washington high, and Thomas Jefferson, and (gasp) Andrew Jackson high. Would that not be the American equivalent King Henry high?

Again, if I were a rabid "Southerner" (well, at least the white portion), I would take solace that the only name change anyone is calling for, is that of the KKK guy. I haven't heard anyone suggest we change Lee or Kirby Smith.

However, If the victor truely writes the history books, I want to see us rename Forrest as Sherman high, and Lee should become Grant High.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 12, 2013, 12:23:48 AM
The British could just wipe out all the things named after King Henry too. They do not do it though. It is great historical information. It is entertaining. We learn from it. We make deductions. Its special. 

They make money from it too.

Speaking of Willian Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY. I like my plan to rename Forrest for Sherman.  Hell, he even had some impact in the Jax area, turning land along the St Johns river over to freed slaves, and later returning to Florida during the second Seminole wars.

I like this plan. I shall email the school board.

Quote from: Demosthenes on November 12, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
Speaking of William Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY.

No, not true... only one school in the full name of W.T. Sherman.
There IS a General Sherman Jr High in Lancaster, OH, where he is originally from.

Oops. I see that now. One is General Sherman, the other is William T Sherman. My mistake.

Did you know that the Confederate General who was organizing resistance against Sherman's march to the sea was actually a Pall Bearer at his funeral?

Quote from: Demosthenes on November 12, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
Speaking of Willian Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY. I like my plan to rename Forrest for Sherman.  Hell, he even had some impact in the Jax area, turning land along the St Johns river over to freed slaves, and later returning to Florida during the second Seminole wars.

I like this plan. I shall email the school board.

The school board stopped naming schools after people a number of years ago.  I think the best name you will get will come from Firestone Rd High School, Westside High School, or Jacksonville Heights High School

Awww, bummer!

Quick side note. LBJ, the proud texan and southerner that he was used Shermans quote to bow out of the 1968 presidential run.

"If nominated I will not run,  If elected I will not serve."

I can see my King Henry comparison takes "more" to explain to you all.  I was comparing King Henry in British culture to Nathan Bedford Forrest in American culture. Sometimes it is exposing to an argument to change the target and see if the policy still applies.  It does not.

If the British mirrored the behavior we have seen on this board I would say that King Henry should have his name WIPED from history.  Moronic to say the least...

You guys are either very slow or trying to be opportunist. It is kind of desperate looking to debate in such a way.  It proves how insecure you all are about your position. It shows you have other motives than education for this move.

There is a trend. Here it is again...Back to the chalk board!

William Duval 1873- PS#1? commanded volunteer force in Seminole War, first non-military Governor, Southerner
Andrew Jackson 1928 - PS#35 Commander in  Seminole war, First Governor,  Definitely southerner
Robert E. Lee 1928 - PS#33 Confederate General - Southerner
Thomas Jefferson Elementary - #48 1936? Antebellum Southerner (the original)
Kirby Smith Middle PS#25 - 1923 - Confederate General - southerner
Forrest - 1958 - PS#241 Confederate General - Southerner
Joseph Stillwell 1964 -  PS#219 US General Florida native - Southerner
Jeb Stuart - 1966? #207 Confederate
Jefferson Davis - #216  Confederate President
Stonewall Jackson - #234 Confederate General

The trend is Southern Military figures! DUH!  Please do look for your brain cells this morning in your coffee guys.

The numbers I believe match buildings not names.

If you think Andrew Jackson (De-centralized US Bank) and Thomas Jefferson (Staunch States Right advocate) should not be included then you are not trying to think as they would have back then.

There was a trend in the 20s. It was continued. This is a more solid argument than your middle finger theory. It is more plausible and more logical.  You certainly can do your own analysis but you are better off leaving that up to more educated people (it would seem).

It just hit me. You all don't matter at all. You have no influence over this matter. You are the wrong people to be talking to because you just do not matter.  This site does not seem to matter either.  I have proven that this is a bad move but what good does that do when I may as well be talking to homeless downtown when I am discussing here? You last few points were ridiculous to the point I may as well be discussing this with livestock.

I tried to teach you all but it can not be done. Let me guess, you guys all went to the public schools here in Jacksonville right?

The fact is this whole integration thing solved one problem but created a whole bunch more issues. Making this change takes further in the wrong direction.

Renaming is bad for Jacksonville.  Nathan Bedford Forrest was a good man. He did not deserve the comments made about him yesterday on Veterans day.  I am ashamed to be part of this discussion at this point.

Sgarey123, let me fix this for you:

William Duval 1873- PS#1? First non-military governor of Florida and the guy the county's named for.
Andrew Jackson 1928 - PS#35 US President, military governor of Florida and major cultural force there, and the guy the city's named for.
Robert E. Lee 1928 - PS#33 Confederate General - Southerner
Thomas Jefferson Elementary - #48 1936? 3rd President of the United States
Kirby Smith Middle PS#25 - 1923 - Confederate General, native of Northeast Florida.
Forrest - 1958 - PS#241 Confederate General - Southerner
Joseph Stillwell 1964 -  PS#219 American WW2 general and native of Northeast Florida.
Jeb Stuart - 1966 #207 Confederate General
Jefferson Davis - #216  Confederate President (not a general)
Stonewall Jackson - #234 Confederate General

There are a lot of others you missed; I've selected these at rando, based on those whose names I can identify:

Matthew W. Gilbert Middle School: 1927 (became a junior high in 1939 and renamed for Gilbert in 1951), Bethel Baptist pastor and founder of an early African-American school
Duncan U. Fletcher High School: 1937 - Florida Senator and Mayor of Jacksonville
Hendricks Avenue Elementary: 1943 - Named for the road it's on; this is in turn named for Isaac Hendricks, plantation owner in this vicinity
Baldwin Middle-Senior High School: 1948 - Named for the town, itself named for local railroad president Abel Seymour Baldwin
Jean Ribault High School: 1956 - Led the first French expedition to this area
Samuel Wolfson High School: 1965 - local businessman
Alimacani Elementary: 1990 - Alimacani or Alicamani was a 16th-century Mocama village on Fort George Island
Kernan Middle School: 2002 - Named for the road it's on, in term named for local landowner and philanthropist Kernan Hodges

There definitely has always been a trend to name schools after people of local importance. The 1959-1966 trend to name schools after Confederates from other states seems to be an exception.

It has always amazed me that people can look at the same facts, and come to such different conclusions, but that is what makes human beings so fascinating. Is there a reason the school can't just be named Forest High?

Quote from: CG7 on November 12, 2013, 01:29:59 PM
It has always amazed me that people can look at the same facts, and come to such different conclusions, but that is what makes human beings so fascinating. Is there a reason the school can't just be named Forest High?

There is no reason it cannot.  According to the school board rules, this issue is now in the hands of Superintendent Vitti, he must make sure that student's, faculty, alumni and people living in that schools district have the chance to fill out questionnaire's on the issue of the name change and suggestions about what the new name should be.  The new name cannot be after a person living or dead.   That rule changed a few years back.  Once the information is collected and a public meeting for the above mentioned people held, the information will be reviewed and a suggestion or suggestions for the name change will come from Mr. Vitti.  The final word as to the choice of name however will be up to the school board.

MJ's version of the Civil War continues....

What's MJ's version and how does it differ from the truth?

^^^I don't think that you and others are gonna be able to change Sgarey's mind and vice-versa, just saying. Does that still make me a 'resident troll'? Don't get so pissed at little tongue-in-cheek trivial comments. 

Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2013, 06:23:08 PM
dont try and run from your commment, which had nothing to do with how credulous sgarey is.

How am I 'running' from my comment? What, am I trying to hide some kinda sinister conspiracy or something? I didn't say anything about Sgarey being 'credulous', all I said was yall aren't gonna change each other minds, hence the Civil War comment (like the Union vs the Confederacy, ya know). It really doesn't take a genius to figure that out oh I forgot, you don't have any sense of humor.

Quote from: I-10east on November 12, 2013, 03:58:09 PM
^^^I don't think that you and others are gonna be able to change Sgarey's mind and vice-versa, just saying. Does that still make me a 'resident troll'? Don't get so pissed at little tongue-in-cheek trivial comments. 

I don't view you as a troll. You don't fight the definition. A Jacksonville apologist and person with a different viewpoint than most forum members here? Sure, but that's different from a troll and to have people posting with different perspectives on issues makes the forum worth participating, IMO. 

Anyway, I view these debates in a different light.  I'm actually not trying to convince Sgarey of anything. The way I see it, the debate back and forth happens to be followed by hundreds of other people within the community.  The conversation helps provide a detailed background into the topic that allows onlookers form their own educated opinions.  Personally, I've learned a lot, just from participating and following this discussion.

Me too! For instance, it used to be publicly acceptable to be racist. (Oh, you know uncle Bob, he is a good enough guy, he just doesn't care for the blacks!)

Now you have to wrap your racism in revisionist history and try to make it seem like everyone else is racist for not accepting your views.

I would say we have come a long way!!!

I'm doing some research on another topic but came across this blurb from a 1996 Times-Union article about LaVilla.  It has a pretty interesting quote describing how slaves saw Jacksonville during the Civil War.

QuoteRebirth after abandonment
The Florida Times-Union - Sunday, September 15, 1996
Author: Cynthia Parks

.....Other immigrants flung their spice into the melting pot of LaVilla.

But through it all, and before it all, were African-Americans.

Some first saw LaVilla as slaves, and some became Union soldiers.

During the Civil War, slave owners tried to move their chattel inland to Lake City and Ichetucknee Springs, but slaves knew that Union gunboats on the St. Johns River meant freedom . They left the corn on the stalk, headed for the river and joined the occupying Union Army.

The first black regiment was trained and disciplined by Col. Thomas Wentworth Higginson, abolitionist and Unitarian preacher. In the third occupation of Jacksonville in 1863, the Union troops built a fort in LaVilla to guard the railroad, and they named it after Higginson.

Many of the colonel's volunteers were from Northeast Florida. Higginson wrote: "They had more to fight for than the whites . . . They fought with ropes around their necks."

Pvt. Thomas Long was part of the force. "If we hadn't become sojers . . . it would have been flung in faces, `Your fader never fought for he own freedom ' . . . Neber can say dat to dis African race no more."

Long was discharged and settled in Jacksonville. So did Hanson, Hamilton, Middleton, Holzendorf.

By 1870, LaVilla -- an incorporated town -- had a population of 1,100, and 77 percent was black.

The mayor was Francis L'Engle, so dyed-in-the-wool a Confederate that he was ready to emigrate to Brazil rather than be ruled under Stars and Stripes.

But L'Engle seized the chance to cut railroad ties for a new industry. He leased quarteracre lots to black freedmen for 99 years, and a town was under way.

Along with whites, black residents of LaVilla collected taxes, made laws, molded a community.

Until 1887.

At that time, LaVilla was annexed by its bigtime neighbor, Jacksonville. Black power was reduced to one representative on the City Council. Restrictive Jim Crow laws, enacted in the late 19th century, sealed their progress.

http://floridamemory.com/items/show/28532  1914.  There is another one of Forsyth Street but it isnt listed... RC119675.

Seems Jacksonville was quite confederate!

Yes, a Civil War reunion for veterans was held in Jacksonville in 1914.....Dignan Park to be exact. Thus, Dignan was renamed Confederate Park. In this particular case, do you still think renaming is bad?

(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110118210108/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/5/57/Nelson_haha.jpg/240px-Nelson_haha.jpg)

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 13, 2013, 08:48:02 PM
http://floridamemory.com/items/show/28532  1914.  There is another one of Forsyth Street but it isnt listed... RC119675.

Seems Jacksonville was quite confederate!

Is anyone here attempting to refute the notion that Jacksonville has been and sadly remains home to people who have difficulty accepting the defeat of the Confederacy and working to achieve unification rather than perpetuating conflict between races?  I think we can all agree on that.

It's an exaggeration to say that Jacksonville was a pro-Union town, but it definitely wasn't a staunch Confederate stronghold by any means. Due to commercial ties and Florida's precarious status, there was a strong Unionist streak in Jacksonville and much of eastern Florida, including among many of the prominent citizens. The estimate by one Unionist Jaxon at the time was that at least 50% of the city was in his camp. African-Americans were obviously overwhelmingly pro-Union, and many came to Jacksonville from elsewhere to join the fight and escape slavery, especially after the final Union occupation (or liberation) of Jacksonville in February 1864. Even before that, there were attempts to organize a pro-Union government in Jacksonville, which was intended to rival the Confederate state government. This fell to the wayside when Union troops pulled out.

Interestingly, Unionist sentiment was also well established in places like Pensacola and Tampa. The major secessionist base was in the Middle Florida plantation region. After Reconstruction, Jacksonville and the other areas gradually became more Democratic and segregationist as blacks and other Republicans were increasingly isolated. By the turn of the 20th century, the Democrats were firmly in power across the state, including in Jacksonville, and they emphasized the area's Confederate leanings.

It's certainly not accurate to say Nathan Bedford Forrest would have been highly regarded by all Jaxons during the war.

Well how about we revisit what sits in the Center of our town....you know the statue you "historians" had no clue about.

Here is a picture of the man the statue depicts:
http://floridamemory.com/items/show/28522

Here is a pretty good write up on the monument:

http://www.scv-kirby-smith.org/confederate_monument__hemming_pa.htm

It seems to me a whole lot of people went to a massive amount of effort to make sure the South kept its identity but at the same time re-joined the Union.  After the war everyone wanted the regions to get along. To do this they wisely allowed the South to keep its heroes. Forrest is certainly one of those. 

Obviously seeing momuments being raised in the 1910's, 1920's etc. clearly establishes a trend. The children of this period would have been the right age to start naming schools 30+ years later. People used to honor the elders.

The inscription is below, I would say this should apply to Forrest as well.

TO THE SOLDIERS OF FLORIDA

This shaft is by a comrade raised in testimony of his love, recalling deeds immortal, heroism unsurpassed.

With ranks unbroken, ragged, starved and decimated, the Southern soldier for duty's sake, undaunted, stood to the front of the battle until no light remained to illumine the field of carnage, save the luster of his chivalry and courage.

Nor shall your glory be forgot,
While fame her record keeps,

Or honor points the hallowed spot,
Where valor proudly sleeps.

CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL
1861-1865

Please do not support renaming Nathan Bedford Forrest High school. It is the wrong thing to do.

Well how about we revisit what sits in the Center of our town....you know the statue you "historians" had no clue about.

Here is a picture of the man the statue depicts (not hemming):
http://floridamemory.com/items/show/28522

Here is a pretty good write up on the monument:

http://www.scv-kirby-smith.org/confederate_monument__hemming_pa.htm

It seems to me a whole lot of people went to a massive amount of effort to make sure the South kept its identity but at the same time re-joined the Union.  After the war everyone wanted the regions to get along. To do this they wisely allowed the South to keep its heroes. Forrest is certainly one of those. 

Obviously seeing momuments being raised in the 1910's, 1920's etc. clearly establishes a trend. The children of this period would have been the right age to start naming schools 30+ years later. People used to honor the elders.

The inscription is below, I would say this should apply to Forrest as well.

TO THE SOLDIERS OF FLORIDA

This shaft is by a comrade raised in testimony of his love, recalling deeds immortal, heroism unsurpassed.

With ranks unbroken, ragged, starved and decimated, the Southern soldier for duty's sake, undaunted, stood to the front of the battle until no light remained to illumine the field of carnage, save the luster of his chivalry and courage.

Nor shall your glory be forgot,
While fame her record keeps,

Or honor points the hallowed spot,
Where valor proudly sleeps.

CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL
1861-1865

Please do not support renaming Nathan Bedford Forrest High school. It is the wrong thing to do.

Quote from: stephendare on November 15, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
yes its just too bad that none of us have ever heard of Hemming.

How in the world did we miss that?  :o

Quote from: stephendare on November 15, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
yes its just too bad that none of us have ever heard of Hemming.

So what's the story behind Hemming?

I don't know, you'd think if it was important there'd be pages and pages of discussion about it on this site or something.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 15, 2013, 09:07:43 AM

Quote from: stephendare on November 15, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
yes its just too bad that none of us have ever heard of Hemming.

So what's the story behind Hemming?

From what's out there, Charles Hemming was raised in Jacksonville.

Oh right, you guys don't need to go to school since you have already been there!
;D

Remember your audience likes links....and you "demand sources."



The link I provided a few posts up should explain everything you need.

Is there a Hemming Plaza downtown with a statue?  Who knew?  Lucky we have Sgarey123 to keep us informed.  ::)

Sgarey123, are you really a Jacksonville resident?

Who I am does not matter.

If you must know I am a native with pioneer roots. This is my home.  There are many like me.

The fact is that renaming the school is wrong.  Regardless of who is offended, who fought, who lived, who is the majority, who is the minority, who decided and why they decided...it is still wrong because right now it is part of our collective culture.  It is our history and we are still learning about it.

We have covered every point of contention. Every problem has an answer to make the new feel okay with the old. It is a transition that we must not ignore. We must respect what was done in the past by our elders.  We must preserve  everything we can because whether you are from here or not you are now part of this great city's history too.  Build new history and allow the relics and lessons left behind to teach us how to move forward. Destroying that legacy (those lessons) hurts everyone. 

This is something I always thought the players (heroes?) of MetroJax understood. Preserve what we can but build new and wonderful things for the future. There is always plenty of room for history when a community seeks progress. There are wonderful things in shotgun shacks as much as the old Barnett tower.  There is a story there. There is a story waiting for some studious teens to try to discover. The high school bears a story as well. It is easier to preserve it than destroy.

Changing the name of the school is wrong. I know you all know it. The question is will you fight the tide and side with history? It is, after all, what you do here right?! Show the town that this is not about race. It is about our story, our culture....our historic identity.

Please listen this time. I do not want to have to send my kids to King Henry high school. That guy was a spoiled b@stard!  ;)

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 15, 2013, 11:03:34 PM
Who I am does not matter.

If you must know I am a native with pioneer roots. This is my home.  There are many like me.

No offense, I just asked because your posting style makes it seem like you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to local history. I could be reading the posts wrong but that's the gist I get.

No, you as a group are trying to make it sound like I do not know what I am saying....when you can not win an argument you use these tactics to misdirect. The concept here is on my side.

I am  the one trying to keep this from being about race. I am trying to keep you all from passing judgement on our history.  It almost feels like you want this to be about race. It feels like you crave to be like a  McCarthy searching for Communists.  The fact is most people from here would rather keep the name and to them it isn't about racism.  It is the action of renaming the school that makes it about race.

You are all acting like the people who so want to punish from history in the 1950s. You are being small minded and intolerant.  You are all better than this....you have to be better educated than this or you would not have such affection for historical preservation in the first place.

You can bury my posts in pages of KKK rubbish.  You can "as a group" try to act like I said something I did not and then hone in on that to bury my posts.  You can even attack my character or origin or posts but it still does not change the concept.

The concept is that you must adhere to the values set forth for inclusion or join the KKK in history as intolerant and extreme. You claim to be fans of civil rights yet you act like children in "The lord of the Flies." 

Nathan Bedford Forrest was an honorable man. A soldier, a General, a leader and a good example for people to study to understand the Civil war. 

I am still in disbelief you all cannot grasp what I am saying. Its as if you are being paid to market the renaming like it is a political campaign or something.  It just does not fit your behavior or even your mindset to carry on in such a way.  Renaming is bad for Jacksonville and you all know it.

The debate has been over for me for quite a while, which is why I haven't posted as much as I did when the thread first began.  The setting for the original naming and why the name change is desired by thousands has been explained.  All the revisionist stories of Forrest in the world aren't going to change the fact of why his name was selected in Jacksonville in the first place.  Personally, I'm not in favor of honoring the racist decision made by local leadership from the 1950s and 60s. No amount of extra fluff and red herrings tossed into the discussion is going to change that core issue at this point. I'm glad to see that new leadership appears to be more open minded.

I agree Stephen. I think it is unfortunate that southerners are fixated with perpetuating and trying to mitigate the actions of Forrest or the cause of the Civil War as if that is all that was honorable about Southern history.

I get it guys.  According to you all then one culture is superior to the other. The founding ideals behind Civil Rights are only for certain approved groups. 

Just go ahead and say that it is a double standard.  Tolerance, diversity, understanding, equality, and acceptance do not apply for Confederates and natives.  It only applies when "real" minorities want something.

I have watched my whole life while history keeps getting revised. It seems that revision also has a double standard.  It only works for "real" minorities and not for Confederates and natives.  Even though there is clear proof of Black confederates they are not allowed to be claimed because that just does not work for those alienating and vilifying the South. 

Black Americans are not victims anymore. They are a growing group of people and not all of them have Al Sharpton politics. Many love there local cultures and history just as they are.  It seems however that now that Black Americans are in charge that we can just cast aside things written in stone and make up new rules for everything.  That is what renaming this school will mean. It is what renaming the park in Memphis meant too.  It is not the right path for a unified and peaceful nation. It is the wrong path to walk down.  I hope the new school board and Vitti read this post because if they vote it to be renamed then they are saying everything I have said above to the Citizens of Jacksonville and the Nation.

Leaving the school name as it is would be proof of a unified and far seeing management rather than a reactionary mob pleasing one.  The wise and sage board and superintendent would look unbiased and fair for all citizens regardless of type.   

Just go ahead and say it. One is okay and the other is not.  The new shall cast away the decisions of the past.  Let the progress begin! No history allowed.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 16, 2013, 03:57:45 PM
I get it guys.  According to you all then one culture is superior to the other.

No. I've been under the assumption that this was your position based off your comments in the previous 18 pages of this thread. Here's a few old quotes that led me to this assumption.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 01:58:31 AM
Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 11:08:46 PM
Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things.Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history....

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:01:28 AMYou have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:36 AM
If you name it after another Confederate at least it does not seem like you are attacking our Culture.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 10:33:50 AM
It is everyone's culture that lives in Jacksonville...if you do not identify with it then that is a shame. However it is still your culture. Renaming is the wrong thing to do.

What I've based my opinion on this topic isn't about the Confederacy. For me, it's about the selection of Forrest (no relation to Jax and a highly divisive character then) as a form of giving a middle finger to the idea of desegregation.  We were a better community then and we're certainly a better more well rounded community now.

If the meme fits, share it! 

(http://i.imgur.com/puukjSS.jpg)

^  ;D Nailed it!

I was going to say Lakelander should win the award for all time worse comeback but then The Chesire Cat showed her lack of intelligence and basic misunderstanding of the entire discussion with that picture.  Pretty sad folks.

You should be questioning yourselves and your own values at this point.  So I guess she is right....she has joined up with the KKK as an intolerant old lady.  Again trying to bury my post in cr@p posts that play to the ignorant.

Nice site folks.  It must be horrifying to realize you are exactly what you hate. Bigots.

This thread is turning pretty sad. I'm just glad it appears a renaming is in the works. 

Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2013, 08:05:33 PM
This thread is turning pretty sad. I'm just glad it appears a renaming is in the works.

Amen.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 16, 2013, 03:57:45 PM
I get it guys.  According to you all then one culture is superior to the other. The founding ideals behind Civil Rights are only for certain approved groups. 

Just go ahead and say that it is a double standard.  Tolerance, diversity, understanding, equality, and acceptance do not apply for Confederates and natives.  It only applies when "real" minorities want something.

I have watched my whole life while history keeps getting revised. It seems that revision also has a double standard.  It only works for "real" minorities and not for Confederates and natives.  Even though there is clear proof of Black confederates they are not allowed to be claimed because that just does not work for those alienating and vilifying the South. 

Black Americans are not victims anymore. They are a growing group of people and not all of them have Al Sharpton politics. Many love there local cultures and history just as they are.  It seems however that now that Black Americans are in charge that we can just cast aside things written in stone and make up new rules for everything.  That is what renaming this school will mean. It is what renaming the park in Memphis meant too.  It is not the right path for a unified and peaceful nation. It is the wrong path to walk down.  I hope the new school board and Vitti read this post because if they vote it to be renamed then they are saying everything I have said above to the Citizens of Jacksonville and the Nation.

Leaving the school name as it is would be proof of a unified and far seeing management rather than a reactionary mob pleasing one.  The wise and sage board and superintendent would look unbiased and fair for all citizens regardless of type.   

Just go ahead and say it. One is okay and the other is not.  The new shall cast away the decisions of the past.  Let the progress begin! No history allowed.

Wow. I'm starting to think that he actually has no clue just how racist his statements and views really are.  Sounds like he thinks Confederates & natives (that's code for white folk) are the victims here.  Very sad.

This southern white folk is 100% in favor of acknowledging history, both for its positives and its negatives.  And for renaming the school so we can move forward in a very non-Confederate kind of way, since that war ended 150 years ago and the Confederates lost, etc. Get over it!  Move on!

Actually Sgarey, you missed the point entirely, once again.  The real message was the one about "shutting up". That went right over your head. LMAO You have told us the same bunch of nonsense over and over and over again.  Turned the coat of history inside out in an effort to make real your version of historical events which attempts to portray your murderous idol Nathan B. Forrest as a war hero. Somehow you can't understand why everyone here is not buying the nonsense you are dishing up. You have failed to persuade anyone to your way of thinking with your rant's and fanatical statements. Now you have fallen further and further into a defensive posture that has you making the most ridiculous declarations about every person on this forum who has an opinion and view different than your own.  Perhaps one of the most desperate series of rant's I have seen in quite some time. Time for you to hush, there is nothing you can say that will add anything positive to this dialog and my guess is I am not the only one tired of hearing you dance around the history of Jacksonville and the south on a thread about renaming a school, which will happen whether you like it or not.  That's the bottom line so time to give it up already. Jeeze! 

kbhanson3.  Apparently we were posting about the same time with similar sentiments.  You beat me to the punch.  I agree that it is well past time for Sgarey to get over it.

Sgarey123, I think one of the things that folks are having a hard time with is that you're framing this as a discussion about local culture and history, but you don't seem to be all that familiar with it. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but from your posts it appears you were unfamiliar with the Confederate Monument in Hemming Plaza, one of the best known and most visible historical structures in the city. Meanwhile, you're arguing that the name of a general from Tennessee should be preserved because it represents Jacksonville history.

Your description of the monument is somewhat off. To my knowledge, the statue at the top of the monument doesn't depict JJ Dickinson or anyone in particular, it just represents Florida's Confederate soldiers. In fact, according to your link (http://www.scv-kirby-smith.org/confederate_monument__hemming_pa.htm), it would definitely not be Dickinson, as the soldier's cap says "'J.L.I.', representing the Jacksonville Light Infantry". Dickinson was a cavalryman in the 2nd Florida Cavalry.

Dickinson's image does appear at the base of the monument, as does one of Edmund Kirby Smith. Both men were notable Confederate soldiers from Florida, and Dickinson was the head of the Florida United Confederate Veterans. A third image has a general Confederate Army scene; according to your link it shows Lee and Stonewall Jackson (I didn't remember that). Overall, though, the monument is dedicated specifically to Florida Confederates.

The monument was placed in 1898 (not "the 1910's, 1920's etc."). Obviously at this time the Civil War was a still a living memory; in fact it was unveiled during a Florida Confederate reunion. It was also a time when the old guard had returned to power and downplayed the significance of Unionists in our state. Incidentally, Jacksonville also has one of the state's only Union monuments, placed in 1891 in Evergreen Cemetery. Like the Confederate Monument (and unlike Forrest High School), it commemorates local soldiers.

If you want folks to "hush" then why are you on a public forum?  The fact you think I do not have the right to post shows that your intolerance is growing.  How bitter can you be?

Let me ask, how long have you studied the KKK? You all seem obsessed with it. The funniest thing is they do not even exist in Jacksonville! I learned that from this board. I had no idea.

I am merely a person that is standing at the gates trying to hold back the mob from taking away a piece of our culture. You guys are for renaming. You are making a change. You are the attackers. Name the new schools whatever you want. Leave the ones named alone.

I seldom go on the offensive because I adhere to the ideal that this discussion can be intellectual.  I want to discuss this problem logically and thoroughly. I want to change your minds. I want the School board to do the right thing. That is why I addressed each problem you had individually.  They are all resolved and have been answered 10 times now (by more people than me too). It is sad.

I realize you all refuse to hear logic but I am not prepared to walk away and let you storm the castle.  I will keep posting. At the very least you will figure out that what you are supporting is hurting people, creating division, and invalidating ideals. You are going to hurt the children by supporting this action. It is sad.

Please proceed to dig up every racist picture you can find on the internet and post it. Those pictures have nothing to do with me and every thing to do with you.  It is the only information you all have brought to the table to support changing the name. It is very sad.

Take a break and think about this thread. Go back and read my posts. You will see inclusion, tolerance, and preservation in every word. Isn't that what you all want? Everyone else has given up on you all. I still think you can change your minds and regain your respect. You can be happy.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was an admirable man. A man who deserves to be studied. A man who deserves to have a high school named after him.  He represents a leader in the South at a time when mayhem was rampant. Research him and spend some time looking for good things instead of bad. Do it for the children and you will be glad after it is all over.

Tacahale,

Please do us all a favor and go down there and read the statue.  You will see. 

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 18, 2013, 12:05:32 AM
Tacahale,

Please do us all a favor and go down there and read the statue.  You will see.

I will see what? I've read the dedication "to the Soldiers of Florida."

This image of an infantryman:

(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/208548e3-d392-4e3c-ad25-06ed5556043e.jpg)

...is not a statue of cavalryman JJ Dickinson, who is depicted in this relief:

(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/c6189108-744b-4ddc-abbb-753109ceb7ba.jpg)

Both the image of Dickinson and this one of Edmund Kirby Smith:

(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/3e00e469-34aa-42e3-9dfc-7f50ddc93d86.jpg)

...depict people from Florida. This is a monument to Florida Confederates, erected in living memory of the war, during a reunion of Florida Confederate veterans. This is quite a bit different than the Forrest High School situation.

Pics from http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMA5R3_Confederate_Memorial_1861_1865_Jacksonville_FL

You have only proven my points further.  Thank you!

I am very familiar with the statue. I was speaking from memory. I walked by that statue for almost a decade twice a day.  I asked you to go look at it because there were some pretty big mistakes made earlier (IE...Yankee town).  These concepts were wrong and an entire platform was built for name change on top of this fallacy.

General J.J. Dickinson's face is on it. I was not wrong. He is depicted on the statue as I stated. He may not be the actual statue (could still be but not likely).  I am happy you found that other link and cleared it all up. That is awesome.

The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Nathan Bedford Forrest is easily in the top 10 well known Generals of the Confederacy  ( http://blueandgraytrail.com/features/bestgenerals.html ). Jacksonville was part of the Confederacy and part of its culture. Therefore, Nathan Bedford Forrest represents a regional hero and can be claimed across all of the Southern states that succeeded from the Union as one of their own. He is regarded as a military genius and it would be appropriate for him to have a school named after him anywhere in the South.

I find it amusing that you guys claim your region/state etc when it suites your argument and then try to disown when it does not. It is childish. If you read the whole inscription (and it is quite a different thing to see it engraved in person) It goes like this (I posted before but this one is better):

TO THE SOLDIERS OF FLORIDA
THIS SHAFT IS BY A COMRADE RAISED IN
TESTIMONY OF HIS LOVE, RECALLING DEEDS
IMMORTAL, HEROISM UNSURPASSED. WITH RANKS UNBROKEN, RAGGED, STARVED
AND DECIMATED, THE SOUTHERN SOLDIER,
FOR DUTY'S SAKE, UNDAUNTED STOOD TO
THE FRONT OF BATTLE UNTIL NO LIGHT
REMAINED TO ILLUMINE THE FIELD OF CARNAGE,
SAVE THE LUSTRE OF HIS CHIVALRY
AND COURAGE.

"NOR SHALL YOUR GLORY BE FORGOT
WHILE FAME HER RECORD KEEPS,
OR HONOR POINTS THE HALLOWED SPOT
WHERE VALOR PROUDLY SLEEPS."

(Below plaque, on base:)
CONFEDERATE MEMORIAL/1861-1865
OUR HEROES
GOD BLESS OUR COUNTRY/1898

This Statue was not "just" for Florida. It was for all Southern Soldiers. The message was preceded with "Soldiers for Florida" because the memorial was meant to heal wounds from the war since they were about to embark on another war in Cuba.

Renaming the school will be a mistake. Again thank you for posting that link. It took me several tries to get to one of them so it would seem people are taking notice and may full well realize that we are close to cannibalizing what makes us special. 

Denialism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In human behavior, denialism is exhibited by individuals choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid dealing with an uncomfortable truth.[1] Author Paul O'Shea remarks, "[It] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event".[2] Author Michael Specter defined group denialism as "when an entire segment of society, often struggling with the trauma of change, turns away from reality in favor of a more comfortable lie."[3]

In science, denialism has been defined as the rejection of basic concepts that are undisputed and well-supported parts of the scientific consensus on a topic in favor of ideas that are both radical and controversial.[4] It has been proposed that the various forms of denialism have the common feature of the rejection of overwhelming evidence and the generation of a controversy through attempts to deny that a consensus exists.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 18, 2013, 11:00:00 PM
The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Umm, I assume you do know who paid for the monument and when it was installed. It's a stretch to use this event as something to validate a town's dominate position a few decades earlier. Btw, you're the only one in this thread trying to force this region's entire history to fit into a confederate box.  I could be reading the last few posts wrong but you're starting to contradict yourself all over the place now. None of which any of this mumbo jumbo has anything to do with changing the name of the school.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2013, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 18, 2013, 11:00:00 PM
The whole reason I brought up the monument (both times) was because someone was claiming that Jacksonville was not a Confederate town.  This monument proves that it was and is. Its in the CENTER OF THE TOWN. Its also one of the few things that survived the fire! I wonder what other Confederate relics burned in that fire. It is a State treasure!

Umm, I assume you do know who paid for the monument and when it was installed. It's still a stretch to claim this event something as someone's town a few decades earlier. Btw, you're the only one in this thread trying to force this region's entire history to fit into confederate box.  I could be reading the last few posts wrong but you're starting to contradict yourself all over the place now. None of which any of this mumbo jumbo has anything to do with changing the name of the school.

That is exactly what is happening Ennis, contradictions all over the place as a fairytale falls apart.  The posts by Sgarey are every bit those of one in denial. 

Something that's worth pointing out in the context of the Forrest renaming is that Hemming Park was itself renamed. It was previously known as St. James Park and was renamed in 1899 after Charles Hemming, a Jacksonville native who had donated the Confederate Monument the previous year. This also goes with thelakelander's point that Confederate Park was originally called Dignan Park until 1914, when it was renamed after a Confederate veterans reunion held there.

So, thanks sgarey, for bringing up two examples of renamings that were not "bad for Jacksonville".

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 17, 2013, 07:47:58 PMNice site folks.  It must be horrifying to realize you are exactly what you hate. Bigots.

From Merriam Webster - Bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

I fail to see how any of the posts here advocating a name change could be considered bigoted.  What would be the group allegedly being treated with prejudice, hatred or intolerance?  Southerners? I'm guessing most if not all of us posting here are southerners. I just don't see any prejudice, hatred or intolerance towards any group in the pro-name change posts.  Puzzling....

okay so here goes...

Please name the contradictions.  Again you guys are making up some emotional BS to misdirect from the real discussion.  I have to hand it to you all. You are good at it. You have been doing it for years together.  Of course I am alone! Who would put up with this mess? I am merely here to keep you guys from spinning this into a renaming publication.  You can smear all you want but I will give back honest and positive information in its place.

Hemming paid for that park. It was an honor for him to choose Jacksonville. Hemming was a confederate (big time).  Go read the links!

Jacksonville has many influences. Confederate is one of the big ones. You guys seem to want to "Re-label" Jacksonville into being some place with out identity. Having a school named after Forrest sets us apart and tells folks we are good enough on our own two feet. We do not have to copy New York, Atlanta, or any other city. We also do not need to be told what to name our schools.  We are part of the South and Forrest was a Southern General (a damn good one too).

Bigots. Yep. That definition describes every one of you on this issue. Numerous quotes and pictures showing intolerance are all in prior posts for the viewing public.  I have jumped through every hoop and stepped boldly into every trap just to get you guys to think this through.  You all still haven't gotten that Natives (black, white, and red)  and confederate heritage enthusiast are a group. You all seem to hate these groups.   

We are not in "denial."  We are protecting this town from assimilation and poverty by fighting this name change. Being part of the Confederacy as a City is something very special. It is interesting. People from other places may want to learn about it and come here and spend some money.  The NFB high school is part of that special heritage that you want to tear down. It is wrong!

I  bet everyone of you is against knocking down the Bostwick building. Imagine this:

"You know I heard a guy in the KKK used to own that building sooooo its gotta go. Everyone from "out of town" says so! It must be true! "

This is what you all sound like. Grow up and respect the past. This is Jacksonville and we do not do things like "everyone else."  We have to bind together and hold together every little thing we can that sets us apart from the strip mall and franchise world.  A huge part of that is retaining our history.  The school name is part of that now. Please join me in the desire to save what we can not get back (ever).  The Bostwick building is a good example. We should do everything we can to hold on to that structure and keep Nathan Bedford Forrest from being renamed too.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 19, 2013, 10:52:37 PM
okay so here goes...

Please name the contradictions.  Again you guys are making up some emotional BS to misdirect from the real discussion.

Here's an example. Either there is a contradiction in the position taken between the first post and the rest or it's just straight up hypocritical.  An accusation is tossed out that every one else has decided that their culture is superior.  However, a review of previous posts suggest the guy making the accusation is doing exactly what he accuses everyone else of.

Quote

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 16, 2013, 03:57:45 PM
I get it guys.  According to you all then one culture is superior to the other.

No. I've been under the assumption that this was your position based off your comments in the previous 18 pages of this thread. Here's a few old quotes that led me to this assumption.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 01:58:31 AM
Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 03, 2013, 11:08:46 PM
Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things.Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history....

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 01:01:28 AMYou have no basis to rename this school. If it does get re-named and it is not named after a confederate then it is racism at work. Period. Again I would love to see it renamed to a Black confederate's name. That would teach the kids that Southern describes them as well.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 08:39:36 AM
If you name it after another Confederate at least it does not seem like you are attacking our Culture.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 05, 2013, 10:33:50 AM
It is everyone's culture that lives in Jacksonville...if you do not identify with it then that is a shame. However it is still your culture. Renaming is the wrong thing to do.

Alright I will take your bait this time and "go on the defensive" again.
You liked your post and you worked hard putting that together so it deserves a real response.

My statement is based off the fact that you are all willing to make one group happy (maybe) while hurting another.  You are not naming a new school. You are removing an existing piece of tradition!  What makes one group more important than the other? It seems obvious to me that you all have that worked out.  One must be more superior than the other.  I said this because I implored you all to think about the ideals set forth in the Civil Rights movement.  Ideals like equality, diversity, and multiculturalism. They are being swept aside.

By all the statements I have read, it is more important to please people that are offended and foreign than offend the people who were honored (NBF Alums, historians and natives). 

This is wrong. The name has been in existence for 54 years and yet some guy from out of town can come here and change it.  What happened to "When in Rome?"

All the quotes you listed (even out of context) have nothing wrong with them.  There is no contradiction. I seriously wish more Black folks appreciated their forefathers involvement in the Confederate army. I find it amazing how many pictures of Black confederates there are.  I also find it amazing  how many Black Confederates collected pensions later in life.  The most amazing thing, however, is that there is no push to document and portray this fact. I wonder why?

Nathan Bedford Forrest had 43 Freedman troops. To pull his name off that school dishonors him and all who served for him in the war.  Wouldn't it be better to teach kids about these facts instead of just rushing to aid a emotional and ignorant plea to remove the name?  One would think so....it would teach those kids a few things. It might even make them love their region, respect their home and listen to their elders once again.

I wish in 1959, ideals like equality, diversity, and multiculturalism would have been accepted by the Duval County School System.  It's pretty inaccurate to attempt to wrap your position in those words. If that were the case, we would not be having this discussion today because the school would have never been named to disrespect the majority of the city's population at the time. Jacksonville owes Forrest nothing.

In fact, it owes Dignan (now Confederate Park), a former chairman of the local Board of Public Works, a lot more than a controversial figure with no relationship to our community.  However, I don't see you saying anything about that. Why is that renaming good but changing N.B. Forrest wrong?  You've never answered that repeated question.

Remember that no one can prove the middle finger theory. I went to a great deal of trouble to outline a more logical reason for the name choice.  Just go back and read.   

It is hilarious that you wish the ideals we mentioned were present back then. They were in the making! The real test is if they still apply now that black Americans are not really a minority in big cities. Will these ideals help other minorities or was it just for black people? 

The Nathan Bedford Forrest eradication is the first test and we are failing miserably to show fairness.

I do not know much about Dignan. The decision was made over a century ago.  Post some info...its just another road on this thread.

Please reconsider your positions on Forrest high school. The bigger picture is at stake here. We must not lose our way.

^That's what I'd like to know.  I'm actually a proud black southern boy and I'm not that obsessed.

I have seen no facts.  Just emotional tactics meant to smear or misdirect from real issue. 

Last night I did some research on the history of Jacksonville's high and middle schools. I didn't do any on elementary schools, there's just too many. The list also leaves out some schools that have since closed (such as Stanton Junior High), but you get the picture.

High Schools
•   1868 Stanton College Preparatory School (Florida's first real African-American school, made 1-12 in 1917. It became a high school in the 1940s, moved to its current location in 1953 and became a magnet in 1981) – named for Edwin M. Stanton, Secretary of War under Abraham Lincoln
•   1922 Douglas Anderson School of the Arts (originally South Jacksonville School # 107, serving grades 1-9. It was renamed for Anderson in 1945 and became a high school from 1955-1968. It re-opened as an arts magnet in 1985)– originally an African-American school, named  for local civil rights leader Douglas Anderson
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts (became a high school following a merger of previous African-American schools; Bethune-Cookman University also grew out of this). Originally the Cookman Institute, the name commemorates its original founders, the reverends S.B. Darnell and Alfred Cookman.
•   1927: Andrew Jackson – named for Andrew Jackson, Jacksonville's namesake, military governor of Florida and U.S. president
•   1928: Robert E. Lee – named for leading Confederate general Robert E. Lee
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949) Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – named for the town, itself named for Florida, Atlantic and Gulf Central Railroad president Dr. Abel Seymour Baldwin
•   1937: Duncan U. Fletcher High School – named for U.S. Senator and former Mayor of Jacksonville Duncan U. Fletcher, who secured the federal grant to build the school
•   1954: Paxon School for Advanced Studies (originally Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School; made a magnet in 1996) – named for the former Paxon Air Field where the school  is located
•   1955: Terry Parker High School – named for local philanthropist H. Terry Parker, who donated the land for the school
•   1956: Englewood High School – named for the Englewood neighborhood
•   1957: Jean Ribault High School – named for French explorer Jean Ribault, who visited Northeast Florida and the St. Johns River in 1562
•   1959: Nathan Bedford Forrest High School – named for Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest
•   1964: Samuel W. Wolfson – named for local businessman Samuel W. Wolfson, owner of the Jacksonville Braves and Suns
•   1965: William M. Raines High School – named for local educator William Marion Raines, principal of Matthew Gilbert High School from 1938-1950
•   1969 (Reorganized and renamed in 1997): Frank H. Peterson Academies of Technology – unknown
•   1970: Sandalwood High School – named for the neighborhood of Sandalwood
•   1971: Edward H. White High School – named for astronaut Edward Higgins White,  the first American to walk in space; killed in training in 1967
•   1977: A. Philip Randolph Academies of Technology – named for local civil rights and labor leader Asa Philip Randolph
•   1990: First Coast High School - named for the regional designation First Coast
•   1990: Mandarin High School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   2010: Atlantic Coast High School – general reference to the region
•   Duval High School: opened 1873, rebuilt in 1908 after the Great Fire, closed in 1927 as several more high schools were built. Named for the county, itself named for William Pope Duval, Florida's first non-military governor


Middle Schools
•   1923: Kirby-Smith Middle School (previously Kirby-Smith High School before 1992) – named for Edmond Kirby Smith, Confederate general from St. Augustine and subsequently an educator at Sewanee, the University of the South
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts – see above
•   1927 Matthew W. Gilbert Middle School (originally elementary; added junior high in 1939, renamed for Gilbert in 1950, became Gilbert Junior-Senior High School in 1952, then a junior high in 1971, with 7th grade only from 1972-1990) – named for Bethel Baptist Institutional Church pastor Matthew W. Gilbert, who founded the Florida Baptist Academy, an early African American school
•   1928 Julia E. Landon Middle School (originally Landon High School, made a middle school in 1964) – named for South Jacksonville educator Julia Landon
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949): Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – see above
•   1940: Alfred I. DuPont Middle School (originally Alfred I. DuPont High School, transitioned to middle school in 1992) – named for Alfred I. DuPont, locally important business magnate and founder of the DuPont Trust and Nemours
•   1940: Lake Shore Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Lake Shore
•   1953: Eugene J. Butler Middle School (originally Eugene J. Butler Junior-Senior High School) – unknown
•   1961: Jefferson Davis Middle School – named for Confederate President Jefferson Davis
•   1952: James Weldon Johnson Middle School – named for James Weldon Johnson, prominent author and civil rights leader from Jacksonville
•   1957: Paxon Middle School – split from Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School
•   1959: Jean Ribault Middle School – split from Jean Ribault High School
•   1961: Arlington Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Arlington
•   1963: Joseph Stilwell Middle School – named for Joseph Stilwell, World War II general born in Palatka
•   1964: Duncan U. Fletcher Middle School – split from Fletcher High School
•   1964: Fort Caroline Middle School – named for the nearby Fort Caroline monument, one of the first European settlements in the continental U.S.
•   1966: J.E.B. Stuart Middle School – named for Confederate general James Ewell Brown "J.E.B." Stuart
•   1969: Highlands Middle School (made magnet in 2005) – named for the neighborhood of Highlands
•   1977: Mayport Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mayport
•   Before 1986: Southside Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Southside
•   1990: Mandarin Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   1990: Landmark Middle School – appears to be a generic name
•   1998: Twin Lakes Academy Middle School – named for the two ponds located on the school grounds
•   1999?: Northwestern Middle School – named for the Northwestern region of Jacksonville
•   2000: LaVilla School of the Arts – named for the neighborhood of LaVilla
•   2002: Kernan Middle School – named for Kernan Boulevard, itself named for Kernan Hodges, local philanthropist and landowner with her husband George
•   2002: Oceanway Middle School (branched off of Oceanway Elementary) – named for the neighborhood of Oceanway
•   2004: John E. Ford K-8 (expanded from John E. Ford Elementary) – unknown
•   2009: Westview K-8 – appears to be a generic reference

As you can see, Jacksonville appears to have 7 schools named after Civil War figures, when we add in Stonewall Jackson Elementary (1965).

The one with the closest period of connection to the Civil War is Stanton High School (1868), a historically African-American school named for Union Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton.

The other six are named for Confederate figures. Two were built in the 1920s: Kirby-Smith Middle School (formerly Kirby-Smith High School, 1923) and Robert E. Lee High School (1928). Of them, Edwin Kirby-Smith was a local.

The other four were built from 1959-1966: Forrest High School (1959), Jefferson Davis Middle (1961), Stonewall Jackson Elementary (1965) and J.E.B. Stuart Middle (1966). As we've said before, these were all built as segregated whites-only schools after Brown v. Board of Education ruled this unconstitutional. They are also all related and located within a few miles of each other in the suburban Westside: Jefferson Davis was built as Forrest's feeder school, and JEB Stuart was branched off when Forrest moved to its current location. Stonewall Jackson is one of the elementary schools serving this area (it's currently a feeder for JEB Stuart).

This gives the lie to the idea that Jacksonville had a long tradition of naming schools for Confederates - before 1959 there were only two middle or high schools so named, plus one named for a Union figure, and there have been none since 1966. As should also be clear, the vast majority of our schools are named for local figures or places. Forrest definitely stands out in that regard.

Not just Confederares.  Southern war heros was the trend. We covered all this some pages back.

^You said it, and you're the only one who believes it. The real trend was clearly locally important figures. In fact, those Confederates are pretty much the only "Southern war heroes" listed here who don't have local connections (except for Kirby Smith, who was a local).

I said the trend was Southern military leaders....I even listed them out.

Go back and look.

Fact is you guys are bogged down in the details. The base concept stands strong.

The trend was brought up to provide an alternative to the middle finger.

The ideals of the Civil Rights movement are in jeopardy.  If the people who created them endorse this renaming then they are also dishonoring the Civil Rights movement.

It is a simple concept.  The small Kid has grown up and is now the bully.

I just listed every middle and high school in the county, and the trend you're claiming isn't real. The real trend is local figures and places; there are only a few named for regional or national figures with no local tie. Forrest is one of those exceptions.

I posted a list by ps# of every school in service (elementary too) I then provided 9? Schools that fit the criteria. Go back and look. They spanned all decades except the 40s I believe.

Once Again this is a minor detail of this whole conversation. We should focus on the main concept of what is happening.

The concept is simple.  It is that one group is taking away from another!  All of the turmoil and sacrifice and headway made under a banner called Civil rights and peace will mean nothing.  It will have been nothing more than a ploy to promote one groups desires over another. It can not be this way.

The School board is new.  Vitti is new.  They need this controversy to misdirect from their acclimation period. There are rumors of disarray and chaos.  If they approve of this renaming process you can be sure that the rumors are true as they are desperate for the mobs approval. 

If they disapprove of the renaming then everyone will know that they are in control and are making logical long term decisions for the community. They will be promoting harmony and upholding the ideals we have all striven to support for so many years.

I care about this city.  I believe that renaming monuments and things put in place to honor people is bad business for a City.  In truth we all know that things written in stone should remain. Renaming monuments is like destroying burial grounds and headstones.  It is very bad. No true leaders would ever think of doing this unless it was an extreme situation.

I beg the board and Vitti to really think over what they are doing. The problems with our school system are not the names or the mascots.  The problems with our schools are that our communities and parents have lost all control and ownership over the schools they live near. We must rebuild. The first step in that direction should be to honor our past and teach our people why Nathan Bedford Forrest and other Southern leaders deserve a school named after them.  The second will be to allow the people to rally around their future and work together to create an atmosphere for happy and educated children to live.

The Daily record (local paper) internet poll shows 84% disapprove of renaming.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com

This site and paper are purely read by local residents. There is very little chance of national mob being reflected here.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 20, 2013, 04:11:20 PMI care about this city.  I believe that renaming monuments and things put in place to honor people is bad business for a City.  In truth we all know that things written in stone should remain. Renaming monuments is like destroying burial grounds and headstones.  It is very bad. No true leaders would ever think of doing this unless it was an extreme situation.

I care about this city too.  It is my birthplace and it is where I am raising my children.  This issue has nothing to do with business for me.  But when it comes to race relations, it is absolutely good business for a city to heal those wounds.  It is very bad for business to appear as though the community is still wrestling with very basic civil rights issues in 2013!  Renaming a school that was originally named after NBF to give the finger to the federal government for forcing desegragation onto the city, i.e., for purely racist reasons, is not whimsical.  It is an extreme situation to use your words.  And no true leader would bow to such nonsensical arguments as you have presented for not renaming the school, essentially "change is bad."  A true leader persuades the masses and guides them to the path of progress, regardless of poll results.  But clearly you are not interested in progress.

This will not be healing. Its more like ripping off a limb and pouring lemon juice on the wound. This will hurt everyone.

It really comes down to whether this new board and sup are working for the local community or if they are working for the people out of town.

^Or at least for all the people in town and involved with the school who want the name changed.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 20, 2013, 02:11:54 PM
Fact is you guys are bogged down in the details. The base concept stands strong.

Wait a minute...

First you come on this thread telling everybody else they don't know the history behind something, then when they recount the history (which happens to disprove you) they're getting bogged down in the details? LOL you don't get to have it both ways.

You  have to be kidding me, right? Or are you another groupee on here?

The trend is there. Just go back and read it.  The fact is no one can "prove" the middle finger theory.  I provided a less dramatic and more probable reason. However, they are all theories. 

The campaign for this change is based off an theory that can not be proven, some tainted history, and a survey filled out by people out of town. 

54 years of tradition is not something you cast aside lightly.  Public service has its duties and one of them is to look after the people of the town, alive and dead.

The Base concept of this issue is all that matters though.

I have absolutely no problem or hesitation in casting aside 54 years of tradition of an ill-conceived school name.  Can do it just as easily as the name was chosen.  Next....

Right. You do not care.

You do not empathize with 54 years of graduates. Generations of people will be affected.  Depending on the birth rate you could have 3 generations of the same family attend that school.  That is a big school too. 1800+ people go there.  They probably graduate 500 a year. That is a lot of people.  You are messing with their youth and memories.

It is a very foolish stance. I hope you aren't leading anything in Public Service right now.

Changing the name is wrong.

You have consistently missed the fact that nobody is calling for the renaming of any other confederate named facility. Furthermore, you keep trying to twist history in your favor. History is not black and white. Its nuanced. Forrest was probably not quite the villain some say, but he most certainly was not a hero, particularly on the issue of civil rights.

Renaming seems too easy now. Fucking burn it down. Do it in honor of every black family terrorized by the KKK, for every Caucasian beaten or killed for working to achieve equal rights. For every man and woman who were not allowed to care for one another because there were different races and were threatened or disowned.

No, I don't blame all of that on Forrest. I blame it on thickheaded, backwards yahoos who claim bigotry is in the name of history. The unfortunate thing for Forrest is, biggots make up his fan base.

I now no longer want it renamed becase of him. I want it renamed because of you. Congrats.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 21, 2013, 10:56:39 PMYou do not empathize with 54 years of graduates. Generations of people will be affected.  Depending on the birth rate you could have 3 generations of the same family attend that school.  That is a big school too. 1800+ people go there.  They probably graduate 500 a year. That is a lot of people.  You are messing with their youth and memories.

Quite the contrary.  I am deeply sorry for those poor people who will have their identities stolen and lives ripped apart by the renaming of their school. I must admit that I'm not quite sure how they will find the strength to go on and live productive lives.  Let's all have a moment of silence in honor of their sacrifice for the greater good.

Okay, sarcasm aside, that is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.  I'm sure there are many grads who oppose the renaming, won't like the new name and some will probably continue to call it Forrest in a childish act of rebellion.  But those concerns just don't stack up against the reasons for renaming, as if that needed to be pointed out.

My alma mater, Episcopal High School, was recently renamed Episcopal School of Jacksonville. I've somehow managed to cope.

Are you sure, Tacachale?  Maybe the life altering name change just hasn't hit you yet.

I think you may be onto something, Tacachale.  Maybe if they just renamed it to Forest High School the thousands of grads wouldn't even notice, and their lives would remain blissfully unaffected.

Gosh, oh golly gee....Did you folks know that there is an online petition to stop the renaming effort of the Nathan B. Forrest School stating that this is reverse discrimination?  lol  Well there is and it is authored by a Skot Wilson, who is also now posting to the FB page of the Museum of Southern History in Jacksonville.  That would be the page on which you can find the online video of the ramblings of a southern preacher who is also a member of a well known hate group.  Mr. Wilson is a fellow well known to City Council who has often delivered to them the same type of racist blather we have seen repeatedly on this thread and been censured for it by a sitting member of council more than once.  Here is the link to the "petition" as well as the pleading introductory from Skot Wilson.  I think it will sound familiar to you guys.  Just saying.... Oh, I particularly like the little notice in the statement that points out this piece was authored by a guy who isn't a racist cause he worked on the campaign to elect Alvin Brown.  This was a real lol moment for me when I read it as Skot Wilson now claims he cannot stand Alvin Brown and in fact is planning to sue him for some tables and chairs that were not returned to him that he loaned to Brown.  You can see his comments about Alvin Brown on Andy Johnson's FB page.  Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....

Quotehttp://www.change.org/petitions/duval-county-school-board-prevent-reverse-racism-keep-nathan-bedford-forrest-hs-name?share_id=egOMgTyfZU&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

(http://i.imgur.com/jm3XoQY.jpg)

Quote
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Duval County School Board: Prevent Reverse Racism, Keep Nathan Bedford Forrest HS name.

    Petitioning Duval County School Board

Duval County School Board: Prevent Reverse Racism, Keep Nathan Bedford Forrest HS name.

        Skot Wilson

        Petition by

        Skot Wilson

        Orange Park, FL

We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict.

There is a movement to change the name of Nathan Befored Forrest High School in Jacksonville, Florida, by people who seek to re-write history, based on reverse racism.  Racism is wrong no matter who does it. Nathan B Forrest was a Confederate General who was accused of war crimes against Union soldiers and blacks, but an investigation exonerated him of that charge. He had blacks under his command. He had many blacks attend his funeral. Yes, he was the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, but the KKK was ORIGINALLY formed to promote chivalry and fight against carpet baggers in the Reconstruction, and when racist acts started being done, he left the KKK and distanced himself from them.

Research his speeches using "was Nathan Forrest a racist" as your keyword, and READ HIS SPEECHES. He called for eqality, saying we are all under one flag, and basically we should all put the evils of war and former thinking behind us and move forward together as people all under ONE FLAG!

In contrast, Jacksonville is named after Andrew Jackson, a murderer, bigot, and racist. Even Abraham Lincoln made racist speeches where he wanted to send former slaves back to Africa and saw them as inferior to whites. No one ever says anything, especially blacks, against modern day black racists. Why not? It is not a crime to be white, nor was it for Forrest to speak in favor of racial equity even though his fellow whites jeered and ridiculed him for it.

The truth is that he was ahead of his time, especially for the South, that he was a man of honor, who employed techniques of war that may have been at times brutal, but all war is brutal. Look at the modern racism against Arabs, at what Americans did in Iraq? Abu Ghraib is a blight on this nation. How many war crimes did American perform in Vietnam? We drive cars from Japan, but who remebers Pearl Harbor or the Bataan Death March? How many Mitsubishi cars are driven by people who had Zeros crash into ships and kill their grandfathers?   

This name change effort is nothing more than a witch hunt designed to re-write history and diminish the honor or a Southern General who was a man of honor.

This statement comes from a man who worked for the Alvin Brown campaign electing a black mayor to Jacksonville, who is from the North, and who is NOT a racist. I have suffered ridicule by whites for friendship with blacks and working to elect black candidates in the South, and been called "cracker" when I am the furthest thing from that. If Jacksonville has no issue with being named after Andrew Jackson, and if we have no issue with the image of Lincoln and Jackson on our currency, then what is the issue with the name of a school of a man who was honorable and spoke of equality?

We, therefore, hereby petition the Duval County School Board to retain the name Nathan B. Forrest High School. In the words of Nathan Bedford Forrest:

Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

"Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand."

Skot Wilson on Alvin Brown. 

QuoteSkot Wilson (afterthought) and Alvin Brown borrowed my furniture (desks/chairs for the election but lent to him, not the campaign), didn't give it back which makes him a thief or a opnarer, and shafted almost everyone who busted ass and got him elected, and then make Humpty Dumpty, his chief of staff, and that wipe almost lost the election for us. Uncle Alvin "Thomas" Brown is somewhat a DINO, almost like (a few other remaining nameless black dems in Duval). He has good intentions, but plays the game too well, and I know he makes deals. Perk of being working for the campaign and being in earshot at the time. Scott Arceneaux helped blow it for us getting Alex Sink in.... yes, ranting..... it's a mixed bag. If I am on the attack, you can bet your ass there's a good reason grounded in facts.
October 23 at 8:25pm ·

NBF's race has no bearing on my opinion that the school should be renamed.  Has anyone ever suggested that as a reason for the change?  Very confused about where the reverse racism is here.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 22, 2013, 03:39:18 PM
NBF's race has no bearing on my opinion that the school should be renamed.  Has anyone ever suggested that as a reason for the change?  Very confused about where the reverse racism is here.

There is no reverse racism.  I think it is time to consider the source of this claim and once having done that dismiss the rhetoric for what it is.  Rhetoric coming from one of the most readily, self aggrandizing personalities to darken the halls of this city and pollute it's social media.  lol 

For those interested to see where this crap is coming from, you can take a look at this thread on Andy Johnson's FB.  Talk about confused, desperate and a hero/savior in his own eyes.  Wow. 

QuoteAndy Johnson shared a link.
October 22
So some Republicans are upset that Grayson compares the Tea Party with the KKK. Lenny got so upset that he called Grayson a pig! Well, damn. I say that if the Republlicans now refuse to join the Democrats and everyone else in Jacksonville i...See More

https://www.facebook.com/andy.johnson.7393?fref=ts

Not so weird when you understand that Wilson also has a history with the School Board.  Again in his own words from his commentary on Andy's FB page.

QuoteSkot Wilson One last thing. Remember I sued the school board over them closing my neighborhood school, Normandy Elementary? The year before they did that, after 47 years of their mascot being a Normandy "Invader", a solider with a parachute, the principal changed it to the Normandy "Stars". So what if the neighborhood, streets, main road, and school was named after the Normandy invasion of D-Day. There was no reason to do that. It didn't promote war like he made the excuse as to why, it honored service in a fight for freedom. Forrest foiught for the CSA 150 years ago. They lost. He joined the KKK when it was still designed to promote chivalry in the reconstruction. He left when that changed. He was a product of his times. Women didn't vote then. After that robber barons and industrialist had children working in dangerous jobs. We still use products from companies that promoted those practices, and work for them. At some point you have to put it in perspective and get past it, and work forward. I would be happier if, instead of working so hard to change the name of the school, people would put that effort into tutoring students and making sure the teachers had the resources and pay they deserve. It seems to me priorities are a little screwed up. Again, stop fighting, start looking for common ground, and apply energy to the positive without hate and resentment and being critical the first thing that gets spouted out. End of story... anybody disagree

And the preoccupation with Blacks, well that is classic Wilson.  He got himself into trouble at City Hall by reading one of his creative pieces.  I believe he called it a poem.  Long story short was it gave him the chance to use the words "nigger" and "cracker".  Which ended up with him being shut down.  Here is another glimpse into a mind that supports Nathan B. Forrest.  It's really unsettling and for the record, the snipes at me on this thread likely have to do with the fact that I threw Skot Wilson off of my forum "JaxOutLoud" because of his hateful remarks, name calling and racist attitude.  It is frightening to realize the who and what is being celebrated over at the  Museum Southern History in the hateful pastor, especially seeing as how this is another connection to the Sons of Confederate Veterans that wants the Armory building. The son's currently meet at the Museum on a monthly basis and they have a direct online link from their website to the museum website.  It's one thing to have southern pride and another entirely to hold to the past with an unhealthy fanaticism.  We have seen a bit too much of the fanatic side of the exchange recently.  IMO

QuoteSkot Wilson I grew up in Union Beach, New Jersey I really never saw many black people until I went to Keyport High School. K-8 was UB, There was some division, but more conflict between rich/poor towns (rivalries) and Italian/Irish than there ever was between black and white. In general, people there are more accepting you at face value then upon who you are, not what you are, but in moving to and living in the South for 24 years now I see racism on BOTH sides, I was NEVER called a cracker or got snide looks because of color, yet that is the Jax way. .......... ........ ............ ............... Now as far as Forrest, KKK, Republicans, Hypocritical Christians.... Yeah, change it, and make a statement that it shouldn't have been changed in the first place. If it was named Forrest to begin with, that might be legacy, but I do believe it was changed and many aspects of the Southern way, like consolidation to insure there wouldn't be a black mayor, a campaign I did much for hahahahaha, are just regressive. ........... ........... ......... .......... I make a joke to friends that Jax is full of niggers, wiggers, crackers, slackers, yuppies, right wing republican zealots and ultra conservative Christian hypocrites. Don't look at the words I use, look at what I say. There are too many people who perpetuate those definitions and attributes that give rise to the terms used. People here, often and commonly, don't run to help others, don't work towards the social or community good... I just saw something which I vetted about murders in the South, that the rate is way higher and it is usually people in some kind of personal dispute. Many here are so rude, exceptions naturally and country folk maybe better, at least to "their own kind". My other joke is "moving South I moved into a 'tropical depression' and I can't get out". The snide look of someone who, because of how they act in conjunction with is, IS a nigger is not restricted to blacks who hate whites or have a chip on their shoulder, whites who do it to blacks, Mexicans or Arabs are "niggers" as well, because the word, a French word, actually means "ignorant". And bigotry IS ignorant, and if it is offensive, was Forrest so great in his legacy to deserve to be defended? Methinks not! ........ ....... ......... ......... ......... Jacksonville, named after Andrew Jackson, bigot and Indian killer, who abused power at times, and was a murderer, is Jacksonville's namesake, so should we expect anything less than this culturally entrenched slavery and hubris inspired mindset with is legacy for this area? Valhalla is a great name, comes from Norse roots, so there's the "white" to appease the WASPs involved, spin it like that.... (hahaha) ..... ....... ....... ..... I feel sad for the ignorant who act as if it was named like that yesterday for the purpose of offending blacks, and the white who want to retain it because it was named after a clansman. You would think that in 2013 we'd have grown up enough to reach conclusions to debates, compromises, in a reasonable fashion, but the Tea Party types, as well as NAACP radicals, remain with us like a sickness. Our society faces global collapse, and it IS coming make no mistake, and instead of working to solve problems we see shortsightedly; when the oil runs short and gets expensive, and water gets scarce, and food production can't feed the approaching projected 9 billion, and wars and famine and pandemics and food riots get underway, what then? The mindset that makes a name change in a school so hard is the same one that prevents forward progression and real humanity from being expressed. Maybe we should climb back up into the trees until we evolve a little bit more, before we destroy any more species, cause any more pain and suffering. .................... ................ ............... And let's not be so harsh on those who call a spade a spade... sometimes a harsh or brazen and candid statement should be allowed to stand. If you can't be brave enough to call bad, bad, then how can you honor what is good? Honest people are worth much more than those who sugar coat piles of dung. Maybe the problem is skin thickness instead of color....... a thicker skin for expressions would allow the right ones to tag the people who are asswipes and expose for the world to see those who speak out of their ass and are idiots

Indeed Stephen.  Amazing the similarity of rhetoric and style.  ;)  Ahem......

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 22, 2013, 05:14:12 PM
It is frightening to realize the who and what is being celebrated over the the Southern History Museum seeing as how this is another manifestation of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that wants the Armory building.

It should be noted that the Sons of the Confederacy, both in what I've read and the few members that I know, do not tolerate any hate speech/actions. As a matter of fact, it would get you immediately banned should you present such opinions as that of the group. In my experience with them, they are trying to educate the public as to what the Confederates truly stood and fought for, which by this post is obviously necessary because it seems a few bad apples corrupted the bunch.

Quote from: JayBird on November 22, 2013, 05:23:06 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 22, 2013, 05:14:12 PM
It is frightening to realize the who and what is being celebrated over the the Southern History Museum seeing as how this is another manifestation of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that wants the Armory building.

It should be noted that the Sons of the Confederacy, both in what I've read and the few members that I know, do not tolerate any hate speech/actions. As a matter of fact, it would get you immediately banned should you present such opinions as that of the group. In my experience with them, they are trying to educate the public as to what the Confederates truly stood and fought for, which by this post is obviously necessary because it seems a few bad apples corrupted the bunch.

I have been to the museum in the past and to some degree don't feel as though all of the members understand how extremists beliefs have found their way into the group.  For instance, much earlier on this thread I shared the link to a clip the Southern History Museum you tube they have posted featuring a preacher using biblical verses to defend Nathan B. Forrest.  I will go back and get his name and the post number because underneath it I posted just who this preacher was that the MSH people were featuring on their FB page.  Lemme pull it together for everyone again.

The video they posted wasn't you tube but from a private site.   You can view it posted twice on their FB page on October 22nd. The pastor is Pastor John Weaver.  There is no mistaking that this man whom they have chosen to feature on their FB page is an extremist and a racist.  Perhaps they can explain the posting and his being featured on their FB page.  My question to them would be if you do not allow racist rhetoric, why do you feature a neo-confederate racist on your page?  I think it is a reasonable question.  If they don't agree with this views or those of other racists, perhaps they should do some house cleaning.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Museum-of-Southern-History/113483645351888

The pastor they are honoring is a neo-confederate racist.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/john-weaver

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30 New Activists Heading Up the Radical Right (2012)
Date of Birth:
1945
Location:
Fitzgerald, GA.
Ideology:
Neo-Confederate

A minister for more than four decades, John Weaver is a religious mainstay of the racist neo-Confederate movement and a man who has recently become a leading proponent of training Christians for armed battle.

Weaver, who earned a bachelor's in theology from Bob Jones University (which until 2000 banned interracial dating), is the pastor of Freedom Baptist Ministries in Fitzgerald, Ga., and preaches weekly in Waycross, Ga., and Live Oak, Fla. But his interests go way beyond preaching.

For years, Weaver was a leading member of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a hate group that opposes interracial marriage and has described black people as a "retrograde species of humanity." He also long served as chaplain to the Southern heritage group Sons of Confederate Veterans at a time when its leadership was largely controlled by racist extremists.

Weaver was much sought after by extremist groups. In March 2007, for instance, he spoke for five nights at South Pointe Baptist Church in Pelzer, S.C., at a conference sponsored by Christian Exodus. That group was working to get Christians in South Carolina to secede and was led by Cory Burnell, himself a former member of the League of the South (LOS), a neo-secessionist hate group.

"John Weaver is the quintessential Southern preacher, bringing the whole counsel of God with practical application to every area of life," Burnell said at the time. "He teaches the biblical doctrine of interposition as well as any man, and brings powerful illustrations from American history, with touching stories from the First and Second Wars for American independence."

Regardless of whether or not "interposition" is "biblical," it is a doctrine that was used by racist Southern state governments to defend slavery and, later, to try to "nullify" laws and court rulings against segregation. It is also one that the courts have repeatedly ruled unconstitutional.

In April 2011, Weaver made an appearance on "The Political Cesspool," a racist radio program run by James Edwards out of Memphis, Tenn., that has featured a veritable "Who's Who" of the radical right. Others on the show have included former Klan leaders, Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis and fellow travelers.

Weaver has also taken up weapons in a big way. He recently became a certified instructor for Front Sight, a firearms training institute. At a Georgia LOS meeting in March 2011, he taught members to draw down on an enemy. He taught gun safety at the LOS national convention last July.

Also last year, Weaver spoke at the Church of Kaweah, a militant hate group based in California. Today, the church sells tapes of Weaver's sermons and also features him in a church video entitled, "To Teach Them War."

JayBird, the Sons of Confederate Soldiers in Jacksonville, group 1209 has a direct link on their page to the Museum of Southern History.  Just so that you can see the two are linked.  The son's have their monthly meeting at the Museum of Southern History on Herschel.

http://www.scv-kirby-smith.org/

^ Lol beat me to answer, first it is a YouTube video (http://youtu.be/HDnwpNNiqDQ) but it is an hour and I could stand about the six minutes.

Second, they are NOT affiliated. The link is in a group of other similar links to other like resources/groups. That one chapter uses the space because it is free. They hope to conduct in the armory if they get it.

I have no personal affiliation (and I think my Yankee status would bar me anyway), it just seems that they are easily cast into this large group of racists which I know to be false. That was all. I agree with the whole thing about this crazy guy and the preacher ... They might as well be talking Martians to me because that is the closest comparison to Forrest I hear! But one or two fringe nimrods shouldn't scar what seems to be just group of people with pride in their past.

I hear you Jay but that still does not explain why they have the video clip of the "pastor" featured on their FB page.  The man is a well know neo-confederate and racist.  By the way, in the south all of these groups are intertwined lol.  But how would a Yankee know that?  :)  My mother was a Yankee and my dad a Rebel from Mississippi.  My home life was a mix of the north and the south on a daily basis. 

^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

Quote from: JayBird on November 22, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

My son is at Kirby Smith. Believe me, no need to worry about that.  They're just trying to figure out how to build robots.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 22, 2013, 07:08:22 PM

Quote from: JayBird on November 22, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
^LoL good point about intertwined! Ha, I don't know why ANYONE would promote that pastors rhetoric and if they are all linked I can only hope that those young minds at Kirby-Smith are not being taught such nonsense that will corrupt yet another generation.

My son is at Kirby Smith. Believe me, no need to worry about that.  They're just trying to figure out how to build robots.

Good deal!  :)

The pastors rhetoric seems to only be present on the Museum of Southern History FB page. To tell you the truth I doubt those who posted it have any idea who the pastor really is, just kinda posted cause you know, he is a good old Christian country boy who loved old Nathan B.  ;)  It is rare to have these sorts of groups look too deeply into the background of those whose rhetoric attracts them.  I have never known any of the people from the museum to speak in racist tones but I would surmise that some harbor such feelings and don't make an issue of them in public.  I don't think the Sons of Confederate soldiers named their group after the school but rather after the man who was...you guessed it...a confederate.  :)

Forrest will have many fans.  He was a hero. His name was a house hold word after the war. He is revered by historians and military as delivering and creating new tactics in Calvary warfare! This recognition is not by just southerners but worldwide. The man was a genius.

You attack him based off the people fighting for him? You are a smear master, Diane.  One could look into your life and  do the same thing. I promise you.

The fact is that Nathan Bedford Forrest is an icon.  An Icon of the South. The region that we live in and all should pay tribute. 

Get back to the real issue here.  SHAME on you guys.  You all know that this is wrong. 

Right now I can see Diane screaming "BURN BURN BUUUUUURN"  in Salem Massachusetts. 

Please do not rename Forrest High school.  The change will not help our local community. It will harm it. We are a proud City and do not answer to fools casting stones from beyond the borders. WE HAVE NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!

I ask you all...do you love this land? Do you really want to resolve problems here? If so this is not the way to do it. This is a distraction. It is a way to rile you up and distract from the real issues. Your children go to school in a prison-like atmosphere!

You should all be ashamed.  Changing the name of something that has been in place for this long only creates hatred on both sides.  It is disgusting.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a great man and the people lucky enough to have served with him were great too. I choose to honor bravery, genius, and fortitude. Why do you not join?

Took you awhile to decide on a comeback that you felt would not further incriminate you or tip your hand here Sgarey.  :o  You have failed all the way around and still you keep on with the crap.  I for one am not interested in entertaining any more of your nonsense.  It is my suggestion now that other forum posters do the same and simply stop reading your foolishness or responding to it.  You have succeeded in doing one thing which is polluting the forum with your self serving bravado based in hatred.  As far as helping the issue of keeping the name Nathan B. Forrest on the school, you have successfully removed any doubt as to the damage retaining that name has and continues to do to the city of Jacksonville.  If anyone was entertaining not changing the name your spew has made that possibility moot.  Well done!  What is really hysterical is the fact that if any smearing was done it was done using your own foul words and insane rantings that are on record through social media.  You have impugned yourself.  No one else needs do a thing.  You are done even if you don't realize it.  Stick a fork in it done!

(http://i.imgur.com/EZDDYz5.jpg)

I can't help but think of what Forrest's Scouts would think of this? That 45 man force was made up of African-Confederate-Americans. What? Black Rebels? Yeah, read it for yourselves:

QuoteBlack Confederates? Why haven't we heard more about them? National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910" Historian, Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a "cover-up" which started back in 1865. He writes, "During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where 'soldier' is crossed out and 'body servant' inserted, or 'teamster' on pension applications." Another black historian, Roland Young, says he is not surprised that blacks fought. He explains that "...some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country" and that by doing so they were "demonstrating it's possible to hate the system of slavery and love one's country." This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.


     It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids...". Dr. Leonard Haynes, a African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm

QuoteBlack Southerners fought alongside white, Hispanic, Indian, Jewish and thousands of foreign-born Southerners. They fought as documented by Union sources:

Frederick Douglass, Douglass' Monthly, IV [Sept. 1861,] pp 516 - "there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate Army - as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government...There were such soldiers at Manassas and they are probably there still."

"Negroes in the Confederate Army," Journal of Negro History, Charles Wesle, Vol. 4, #3, [1919,] 244-245 - "Seventy free blacks enlisted in the Confederate Army in Lynchburg, Virginia. Sixteen companies of free men of color marched through Augusta, Georgia on their way to fight in Virginia."
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com

QuoteThe Confederate Burial Mound for Camp Morton, Indiana, at Indianapolis, Indiana, has bronze tablets which list the nearly 1200 Confederates who died at that camp. Among those names are 26 Black Southerners, seven Hispanic Southerners and six Indiaan Southerners.

At a time when those Black Southerners could have walked into the Camp Commander's office, taken a short oath and signed their name to walk out the gates free men obliged to no one they chose instead to stay even unto death. Your understanding of that choice is likely nonexistent.
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com

I believe that last sentence applies to the many on this thread who are in this because it's the 'currently correct' version of history. Rather then stand on our history, for better or worse we are proving to be the real revisionists, unworthy of respect from either ancestral side.

Remember all of those truths that your school taught you? How the South couldn't win because all of it's man power went to war etc?? Well who the hell was minding the farm? Through 4 years of total war the south managed (poorly at times) to feed and clothe it's armies without any (white) men, transportation or industry...  Sounds like a crock to me.

If you'd care to really learn this, we could meet up at the library downtown and I can show you excerpts from the 'Official Records of the War of Rebellion' all day long that contain such treasures as, MANY Black slave owners, Black owned plantations and businesses. The first group to volunteer it's money and lives to the Southern war effort was an association of Black business owners in South Carolina. The records are also full of war crimes committed on Black citizens by northern troops, not for being Black, but for being 'Rebels.' One of my favorite quotes is from a northern officer watching Lee's army cross the river into Maryland. The quote went something like this; "The Rebel Army marches with it's white and black soldiers with no apparent difference to either race, they are mixed, singing and cutting the fool as if children of the same family." Indeed the story is NOT what we are taught today, one must go to the old and original source material and not try and view this through todays glasses.

Fact is, if you are/or were Black, had a farm, lived on the route of the Federal Army, you were likely to volunteer... or be tortured or shot. Your home was toast unless they needed it, your women and children were in even worse condition. Is it any wonder that Black Southron's picked up their weapons and fought for their turf?

Locally some of our schools are fond of telling the story how the Confederates planned to kill all of the Black Yankee's they captured at Olustee. Didn't happen, at least not on any news worthy scale, though there were probably some crazies as happens on any battlefield. What you will find in the reports are the Southerners opening their homes and hospitals in Lake City to mend the wounded Yankees Black and White. You will read how the Yankee's complained of being put in the same rooms as their Black soldiers.

The worst thing you'll read about Olustee is the fact that the Federal commanders made a game of running the Black soldiers into the meat grinder. They were ordered not to fall back under penalty of death. As the Confederate line advanced through the woods, there are dozens of notes from various commanders of the horror they witnessed as the Yankee's enjoyed their sport. The Black troops were caught between murderous Confederate fire and certain death if they turned.

So while in a Yankee Prison, with Emancipation available for an oath, with Yankee guards supposedly there to save them, YES, these men had a choice the white Confederates didn't have, and they chose to die with their brothers. Doesn't fit well with our current revision does it?

^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.

It seems fairly obvious that you care what color the Confederates were.  Is it not the real basis for this name change, after all?  How many times have you played that card in this discussion?

Are we really saying that the change is now based purely off the "War criminal" theory? It is the weakest argument of all of them.  He was not a war criminal. Period.

I joined this board to insure that common sense and fairness were represented in this discussion. I am defending what I consider to be my home and my culture. Forrest deserves better than this and I aim to stand here until the very last second. I think it might make the difference.  The Daily record survey gives me hope (84% for keeping name).

Many people are afraid to speak on this matter because of the racial element in the discussion. It is imperative to this debate to understand that Black folks are southerners too. It would be wonderful to see the Ritz theater start to gather information on this subject and dedicate a section to Black Confederates.  This is the road to "healing." Changing the name is the road to more conflict. 

There is no logical basis for supporting this change. The emotional basis is understood but it is manageable.  Our school system's job is to teach! It should not be hard to teach children to love their home. Nathan Bedford Forrest is part of it. He is a hero of our Region. Lets teach that he (like all Confederates) had no choice but to defend his home.  The army was built of people that lived here regardless of race.  Few people realize that the Indians fought for the south too. It was a multicultural defense.  Black, white and Red all defending their families and homes might be a good thing learn about. I know that my history teachers were top of the line and taught me to love my home. It can be done. Pride is learned and it should be taught.

Changing the name is the wrong thing to do. It will hurt this community. It will be a wedge of hatred.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2013, 12:22:19 AM
^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.

Well said.  All of the other arguments against renaming are just red herrings.

Btw, a red herring for sure but for the historical revisionists out there, what makes Forrest a better man than Stanley "Tookie" Williams? Williams co-founded the Crips to be a "bull-force" neighborhood watch but later renounced his affiliation in prison. He was still put to death.  I don't see any pushes around the country to name public schools after him.

Why in the world should anyone celebrate black confederates and slave holders?!

The trade of human souls is not justified by the fact that someone perpitating it is of the same race. Its nothing more than an interesting footnote in an otherwise horrific chapter in American history.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2013, 09:08:27 AM
Btw, a red herring for sure but for the historical revisionists out there, what makes Forrest a better man than Stanley "Tookie" Williams? Williams co-founded the Crips to be a "bull-force" neighborhood watch but later renounced his affiliation in prison. He was still put to death.  I don't see any pushes around the country to name public schools after him.

Tookie Williams was CONVICTED in a court of law. Forrest was not, in fact he was not convicted by a vengeful US Congress that would have loved nothing more then to see him hang.

Not for 'Fort Pillow.'

Not for his supposed leadership of the 'KKK'.

QuoteWhy in the world should anyone celebrate black confederates and slave holders?!

One celebrates black Confederate soldiers for the same reason that we celebrate any other American soldier that was willing to or did in fact lay down their lives for their country.

Nobody celebrates black slave holders, but the fact that they existed completely negates the modern revisionism that the South rebelled simply as a means to, "eat the entrails of all the black people in the south before setting them on fire." Southerner's were all in this together.

It's comical that the revisionists are calling Sgarey123 and I 'revisionists.' Our defense of Forrest or any other southron of any color is seated in the original records but of course this isn't what they taught you in school. For the north to justify their war on the south they needed a very effective smoke screen. Eliminating the Black Confederate from the story fits very nicely with the 'All southern Whites hate all Black people,' line of thinking. Toss in a few whipping posts (which were used as corporal punishment throughout the country for people of any race) and lose the white 'victim-criminals', a great emancipator (who planned to deport all Black people during his second term) and you can create a whole new spin.

Forrest High School, regardless of the desegregation era during which it was named, was named as a result of one of the greatest American celebrations of all time. The 'Civil War Centennial,' was the closest Jacksonville became to being a destination since the days of being 'The Queen of the Winter Resorts.' Anyone who recalls the American bi-centennial celebration would understand if I told you the war centennial was just as big, maybe bigger. From the President of the United States to the pine trees at Olustee, it was a tidal wave that swept everything before it.

I for one am happy that Ock is back with some intelligent commentary from the anti-name change side.

That said, the existence of black confederates and slave owners has nothing to do with Forrest or why his name was chosen for a school in Jacksonville, Florida nearly 100 years after the war.

If we're going to have a general discourse about the Civil War, that's awesome, but it doesn't really mean anything for whether or not this school's name should be changed.

Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2013, 12:53:18 PM
This is not a thread about 'The South'.  This is a thread about a high school in Jacksonville.

Good point and this is where I think a big issue comes in. I think some are fighting not for the man and his legacy but simply for the fact that another piece of "The South" fabric is being ripped away, to be forgotten. Which is understandable, but the real matter isn't about what the man did or didn't do in the 1860's somewhere in the southeastern US. It is about what was behind a group of Jacksonville resident appointed/elected board members selecting this man for naming of the school.

Haven't posted on this thread yet..less from ambivalence, more from "I'd rather not see people try to defend the name under the guise of XYZ"

The way I look at it...naming a school after Forrest in the US is like naming a school after Rommel in Germany. Dumb idea, change the name, moving on...

Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2013, 12:53:18 PM
And, no, no one should be 'celebrating' black Confederates based on their race, that a racist and ridiculous argument.

Those are your words not mine stephen. I said, "One celebrates black Confederate soldiers for the same reason that we celebrate any other American soldier that was willing to or did in fact lay down their lives for their country." I never said they were celebrated because of their race, but because of their valor.

The idea that Forrest's Scouts included some 45 'men of color' silences any foolishness about Fort Pillow being a white Confederate army under Forrest kills all Black people arguments.

If this discussion is about the 'name' then it follows that some want the name removed because.... [add accusations about the general here] or [add accusations about the UDC or COJ here].

This thread kicked off with; "...different perspectives on the life of the former Memphis, TN slave trader and founder of the KKK." Attempt a defense and the thread is only about the name? REALLY?

Yelp, the reasoning for the naming of the school in the first place and moving Jax into the 21st century. That's what it's about for a lot of people.  That's pretty much the context. It's not a fight about the validity of the confederacy.

Ock, so you are saying that you believe or know to be true that when the school board met in 1959 and named this school that it was 100% based off the heroic actions that this general led while in battle? It is a yes or no answer, and whatever your answer, then you can apply the opposite answer to "should the name be changed". Because that is the bottom line. Everything else is fluff of people trying to be right for the sake of being right.

QuoteQuote from: thelakelander on Today at 12:22:19 AM
^The issue in this Forrest situation is the reasoning behind the 1959 naming of the school.  It's hard to defend the act of giving desegregation the middle finger.
Well said.  All of the other arguments against renaming are just red herrings.

I am happy to hear that everyone has no issues with the Confederacy. That renaming the school is not about "Forrest" and his deeds but mostly about how the name was chosen and why.

It seems we all have so far a few theories out there:

1) Middle finger to the Federal Government for inserting itself into local and state gov.

2) The trend of naming schools for Southern Military Heroes and Leaders.

3) The 100th Anniversary of the war was right around that time.

Any more? I bet we can come up with some.

I just have a hard time believing that any theory is enough to rename a school that has been around for 54 years. I mean you can not prove it.

No matter what you say this renaming is about General Forrest.  It is about Confederate named schools being renamed across the board.   This is a modern day lynching. A smear campaign against a figure of history. 

After Forrest who is next? Our founders? our City's name?

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 23, 2013, 09:51:36 PM
I just have a hard time believing that any theory is enough to rename a school that has been around for 54 years.

Segregation was around for 58 years before it was struck down five years before the opening of all white Forrest High.  Slavery in the US went on for nearly 300 years before the results of the Civil War ended it. Given your quote, is it safe to assume you would have been against the ending of segregation and slavery because of them being around longer than five decades?

QuoteSegregation was around for 58 years before it was struck down five years before the opening of all white Forrest High.  Slavery in the US went on for nearly 300 years before the results of the Civil War ended it. Given your quote, is it safe to assume you would have been against the ending of segregation and slavery because of them being around longer than five decades?

That is some pretty crazy logic there.  You are comparing the existence of slavery and segregation to the name of a high school? Seriously?

As has been said over and over. The name of the school is not the problem we should all be focused on. We should be focusing on safety in schools.

Don'y be silly. I'm calling out the belief that something should not be changed because its been around for 54 years.

Oh, and we should be focusing on a lot of things.  Doesn't mean we can't achieve those goals and change the name though.

So we have this boiled down to the following equation:

"The name of the High school being around 54 years is not a reason for it to be retained."

This is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion.

My opinion is that the fact that it has been in place for 54 years gives weight to not changing the name.  Things already in place have roots. They are harder to change.  There should be a very good reason to change something that has survived this long and affects so many people (roughly 500 x 54 = 27000 alums) .  It is also impossible to name schools after people or heroes in Duval County. That means that every time you remove a school that was dedicated to a person that it can not be replaced. 

Renaming this school after its being in place for  54 years also provides justification to renaming any school in Duval County.  It opens the door to a complete transformation of the town we live in right now. This affects even more people.  Some of the schools are very old (Jackson and Lee) and the numbers of those affected would be very high.

"The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new."

Socrates said this and it applies here.  Why attack this name? Why fight the old? Let it be and learn from it. Changing it just causes problems.  It is a really good learning tool.

There are many people in Jacksonville that do not want this school name changed. It is enough to matter. It should be enough for all of you. It should be enough for the School Board and Vitti as well.

http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm 

I just found this on another site.  It seems Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK after all. There are no sources to prove this assertion.

In fact there is proof stating otherwise!

It is amazing how the smear spins. 

Just think of all the time and space we could have saved in this forum if I had found this earlier!

I'd like to take up the defense of the real Socrates when ill-used by Sgarey123 to defend retaining the name of Forrest HS. The cited phrase comes from a novel titled "Way of the Peaceful Warrior". It is a cheerfully inane book intended to bolster the reader's warrior spirit. The phrase comes from page 123 of the book:

Back in the office, Socrates drew some water from the spring water dispenser and put on the evening's tea specialty, rose hips, as he continued. "You have many habits that weaken you. The secret of change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old, but on building the new."

Spectacularly meaningless but there you have it.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 24, 2013, 12:51:37 AM
So we have this boiled down to the following equation:

"The name of the High school being around 54 years is not a reason for it to be retained."

This is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion.

What isn't opinion is how the school got its name in the first place and Forrest having no real historic link to Jacksonville. You can talk in circles to you're blue in the face but it doesn't change those facts. 

QuoteMy opinion is that the fact that it has been in place for 54 years gives weight to not changing the name.  Things already in place have roots. They are harder to change.  There should be a very good reason to change something that has survived this long and affects so many people (roughly 500 x 54 = 27000 alums).

Many people said the same thing about MLK and Civil Rights. You could apply this same illogical reasoning to maintaining slavery, segregation, a dysfunctional transit system, unsustainable land uses and host of other things that were wrong but has lasted for decades....

The link I provided gives sources.  It looks legit to me.  I see no problem with it being posted to help educate and combat this utter nonsense you guys support.  You source is more questionable (KKK).

It does call into question Nathan Bedford Forrest being associated with the KKK. This is now un-provable theory too.  Nathan Bedford Forrest never claimed to be in the club.

It looks like you guys are being quite selfish as this point.  Change for change sake is b*llsh!t.  You are trying to destroy something special.

So here we go (I left one out):

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

This is where we are in this discussion.  You need more than the above to bully through a name change on something that has been around for half a century.

Do you realize there are folks coming up on there 50th reunion?

People who are arguing for this name to be kept don't realize how dumb they look

I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past. 

Sgarey123 suggests Forrest was not a member of the KKK and was not a racist.

Well, what do historians say about Forrest? A few examples followed by an interview with a former slave who witnessed KKK violence during the brief time Forrest led this organization.  This is the real person for whom his defenders stand up in this discussion:

1) Jack Hurst, "Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography". Random House, 1993. 

"Forrest is more remembered for an even greater mistake [the author is referring to the Ft. Pillow massacre]: his brief leadership in galvanizing the terror of the Ku Klux Klan." (p. 384)

"Forrest...had plainly tired [by 1875] of the race struggle, as well as of his own reputation as Fort Pillow's Butcher and the Klan's grand wizard. Living in a city whose only barbers were blacks, he had made it a postbellum practice never to patronize the same one twice in succession, lest a plot be hatched to slit his throat." (p. 366)

2) Owen J. Dwyer, "Symbolic Accretion and Commemoration", in the journal "Social & Cultural Geography" (2006) , pp. 419-435.

"Controversy has erupted in Selma, Alabama, over recent efforts to commemorate the career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate cavalry officer and founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. More generally, the controversy in Selma is emblematic of an enduring regional pattern in which contests over the future are couched in terms of the past. Relative to other media, monuments appear to be trustworthy and lasting. Despite this appearance of historical consensus and stability, the city's public spaces are the product of and conduit for ongoing politics."

3) David M. Chalmers, "Hooded Americanism: The First Century of the Ku Klux Klan, 1865-1965". Doubleday, 1965.

"According to Forrest, the Klan had been a law-and-order organization to restore authority to insecure and fearful Southern whites. The 'organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all." (p. 21).

4) Laura Martin Rose, "The Ku Klux Klan: or Invisible Empire". L. Graham Co. 1914. (a KKK sympathizer is the author of this book)

She includes a letter written to her by one of the last surviving charter members of the Ku Klux Klan. She quotes from the letter, dated October 25, 1908:

"The younger generation will never fully realize the risk we ran, and the sacrifices we made to free our beloved Southland from the hated rule of the 'Carpetbagger,' the worse negro and the home Yankee...After the order grew to large numbers, we found it was necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General N.B. Forrest, who had joined our number. He was made a member and took the oath in the Room No. 10 of the Maxwell House at Nashvile, Tennessee, in the fall of 1866, nearly a year after we organized at Pulaski." (p. 22)

"The superstition of the negro is well known, and through this element in his makeup, the ku Klux Klan gained control. They made the negroes believe that they were the ghosts of their dead masters, and under the conviction that if they did wrong, spirits from the other world would visit them; the negroes became very quiet and subdued." (p. 19)

5) Court Carney, "The Contested Image of Nathan Bedford Forrest," in the "Journal of Southern History," (2001).

"A notorious slave trader and an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest became an obvious target for African American anger and contempt." (p. 601).

"Although Forrest and others later insisted that the Klan functioned only as a political organization, racial terrorism became the hallmark of Klan activities. Forrest, however, lost interest in the Klan once it outgrew his immediate authority." (p. 603)

As far as KKK activities during the time Forrest was its leader, here is an interview of a former slave. The transcript is in the WPA Slave Narrative Project, North Carolina Narratives, Volume 11, Part 2, Federal Writer's Project, United States Work Projects Administration (USWPA); Manuscript Division, Library of Congress:


"I [Ben Johnson, born into slavery in 1848 and interviewed in 1933] was born in Orange County [North Carolina] and I belong to Mr. Glibert Gregg near Hillsboro. I don't know nothin' 'bout my mammy and daddy, but I had a brother Jim who was sold to dress young misses fer her weddin'. The tree is still standing where I set under an' watch them sell Jim. I set dar an' I cry an' cry, especially when they puts the chains on him an' carries him off, an' I ain't never felt so lonesome in my whole life. I ain't never hear from Jim since an' I wonder now sometimes if'en he's still living.

I knows that the master was good to us an' he fed an' clothed us good. We had our own garden an' we was gitten' long all right.

I seed a whole heap of Yankees when they comed to Hillsboro an' most of them ain't got no respect for God, man, nor the devil. I can't remember so much about them though cause we lives in town... an' we has a gyard.

The most that I can tell you 'bout is the Klu Klux. I never will forget when they hung Cy Guy. They hung him for a scandalous insult to a white woman an' they comed after him a hundred strong.

They tries him there in the woods, an' they scratches Cy's arm to get some blood, an' with that blood they writes that he shall hang 'tween the heavens and the earth till he is dead, dead, dead, and that any n***** what takes down the body shall be hanged too.

Well sir, the next morning there he hung, right over the road an' the sentence hanging over his head. Nobody would bother with that body for four days an' there it hung, swinging in the wind, but the fourth day the sheriff comes an' takes it down.

There was Ed an' Cindy, who before the war belonged to Mr Lynch an' after the war he told them to move. He gives them a month and they ain't gone, so the Ku Kluxes gets them.

It was on a cold night when they came and dragged the n*****s out of bed. They carried them down in the woods an' whup them, then they throes them in the pond, their bodies breakin' the ice. Ed comes out an' come to our house, but Cindy ain't been seen since.

Sam Allen in Caswell County was told to move an' after a month the hundred Ku Klux came a-totin' his casket an' they tells him that his time has come an' if he wants to tell his wife goodbye an' say his prayers; hurry up.

They set the coffin on two chairs an' Sam kisses his old woman who's a-crying, then he kneels down beside his bed with his head on the pillar an' his arms thrown out in front of him.

He sits there for a minute an' when he rose he had a long knife in his hand. Before he could be grabbed, he done kill two of the Klu Kluxes with the knife, an' he done gone out of the door. They ain't catch him neither, and the next night when they came back, determined to get him, they shot another n***** by accident.

Bob Boylan falls in love with another woman, so he burns his wife an' four youngsters up in their house.

The Ku Kluxes gets him, of course, an' they hangs him high on the old red oak on the Hillsboro Road, After they hanged him, his lawyer says to us boys: 'Bury him good, boys, just as good as you'd bury me if I was daid'

I shook hands with Bob before they hanged him an' I helped bury him too an' we bury him nice an' we all hopes that he done gone to glory."

__________________________________________

Truly a great person. We should name more stuff after him.

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past. 

Of course, Ron's observation underlies the NBF renaming issue, the discussion of Forrest being just a proxy for the real issues of education and opportunity.

I am saying that his affiliation is questionable.  There was a lot of smear history going on and a lot of cover up to.
If you read the link I posted they explain this fact very well. Just because you repeat a lie over and over it does not make it true. It was repeated for years.

Here it is again:  http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm   

I read that the names of the founders of that organization are known. Forrest is not among them. I read somewhere else that the robe of the first "grand wizard" is on display in some museum.  The owner of the robe is well known and it is not Nathan Bedford Forrest.  Apparently they have no quotes from Forrest claiming membership? I was surprised to learn this.

I hesitated to go down this route but it is the source of the issue right? I do not know a lot about this group other then what I have read in folio and seen in movies (I didn't even read what Dare posted).  I know that what I have read is fairly subjective information. However I would never defend the Klan.

I grew up being taught to hate the KKK and all other extremist groups. I think most people were. Some take that hatred to the extremes in a McCarthyism manner.  That is what changing the name of the school is...another form of McCarthyism. Seeing as his membership is questionable one would think that this reason should be removed from the table.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ron Chamblin. I think his suggested approach is healthier.  History teaches us things. This is a teachable icon. We should use it for everything it is worth. I know that I have learned a lot just from this discourse.  The name of this school is special. This is the truly liberal approach.

Its funny to note that every time I throw a zinger out there Dare posts "yawn." Its like his tell in poker. :)

Please reconsider changing the name. It is not the right thing to do.

The reason is that I am defending a hero of our culture and region. This is just another smear campaign. Its a modern day lynch mob going after a respected figure in history. It can not be allowed. If it is then all history is on the chopping block. You may as well be burning books!

This move is as extreme as the klan or the black panthers. It is not something our local leaders can endorse and still say they serve our general good.

In every western movie the sheriffs who could not stop the mob were seen as weak. If the school board and Vitti do not stop this then they will be perceived as weak.

The sources you list are questionable. How is it that Forrest was the "founder" of this organization if he was brought in and initiated?! It sounds like this existed already. Or did they?  This is a pretty big mistake.

I have never cared to learn about the Klan. I know they hung 5000 people over a 20 year span. They were just another mob. Lets not be like them. Lets be intelligent and celebrate our history and preserve it as much as possible.  Balance is the key. Renaming the school is extreme.

Quote from: stephendare on November 24, 2013, 12:40:15 PM
yawning is usually more polite than actually laughing, Ive been told.

And if you havent ever read about the organization that youve just wasted god knows how many pages making statements about, why on earth are you speaking authoritatively about the membership of that organization?

And other than the direct eyewitnesses and a hundred years of writing on the subject, I guess there just isnt any compelling 'proof' of Forrest's Klan involvement?  Give me a break.

I suppose there is siimilarly no clenching proof of his alleged valor in battle.  So checkmate.

'Keeping the name as a teachable moment".  Balderdash.  Lets rename it Mengeles High then, and make it a medical magnet school.

Some histories really arent worth commemorating,  They are just like farts.  You can capture their essence if you like, but only an ass would reduce a story to fart anecdotes.

As usual, your lack of intelligence, and your failure to perceive a point of issue, forces you to descend to the juvenile, with a little profanity within.  As I've said before, if the conversation exceeds your ability, please don't ruin it with your clumsy attempts at cleverness.  I'm sure it is quite obvious to all that you're not a Voltaire.  Please, spare us your attempts to be one. 

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: stephendare on November 24, 2013, 12:40:15 PM
yawning is usually more polite than actually laughing, Ive been told.

And if you havent ever read about the organization that youve just wasted god knows how many pages making statements about, why on earth are you speaking authoritatively about the membership of that organization?

And other than the direct eyewitnesses and a hundred years of writing on the subject, I guess there just isnt any compelling 'proof' of Forrest's Klan involvement?  Give me a break.

I suppose there is siimilarly no clenching proof of his alleged valor in battle.  So checkmate.

'Keeping the name as a teachable moment".  Balderdash.  Lets rename it Mengeles High then, and make it a medical magnet school.

Some histories really arent worth commemorating,  They are just like farts.  You can capture their essence if you like, but only an ass would reduce a story to fart anecdotes.

As usual, your lack of intelligence, and your failure to perceive a point of issue, forces you to descend to the juvenile, with a little profanity within.  As I've said before, if the conversation exceeds your ability, please don't ruin it with your clumsy attempts at cleverness.  I'm sure it is quite obvious to all that you're not a Voltaire.  Please, spare us your attempts to be one. 

Ron, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   ::)

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

As insane and bizarre as this thread has become, let's stick to the topic instead of going after each other personally. With that said, changing the name accomplishes the exact same thing and has the extra benefit of being an image booster for Jax to the rest of the country that we may not still be mentally stuck in the 1950s.

QuoteTo think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

One of the major problems Jax has faced is the ability to overthink ourselves.  Unless someone has been hiding under a rock or simply don't care, the reasoning behind the 1959 opening of this once all-white school and the selection of its name is clear as day. So is our image and economic standing to the rest of the country that has progressed into the 21st century.  All this arguing over the confederacy and attempts to paint this this Forrest S.O.B. as a saint that should be honored in Jax is nothing more than attempts to deflect from the core issue.

None of this suggests that everything is good after this particular point. There's still a lot of work to do with improving several issues in Jacksonville. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we should not right this particular wrong.

The bottom line right now is that the necessary arguments about the issue were made to the school board already, days and days ago.  Those arguing to keep the name failed to persuade the school board and they "unanimously" voted to go forward with the process necessary to change the name.  During that process those who are identified as stakeholders in the issue will be given documentation by the school board to fill out and reply to.  There will also be another open meeting where "stakeholders" can make their case one last time.  At that point the Superintendent will make a recommendation as to what the name should be and the final word will go to the school board.  Vitti has already said he supports the name change and the opinion of the school board at this juncture is also quite clear.  All of them without exception voted to move the process forward.  That is where we are at this juncture and no jawing on this forum by those wanting to retain the name on the school is going to make one bit of difference as a the decision has already been made. 

QuoteRon, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   ::)

Diane you are a piece of work.  You are delusional.  This description fits you perfectly. I can not count how many times you all have tried to pin a personality to this situation so you can then smear and pile upon them. I invite anyone to go back and look at the converstation. It is rather clear who has good intentions and who does not. 

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

Nothing new has been brought forth to change any of the above.

The fight may seem like it is over but the board could still change their mind and so could Vitti.  They just need to hear from regular people like me about how this is the wrong thing to do.  Everyone out there is scared to talk about this issue. They do not want to be labeled by people like you.

I will say this, if you went to school at NBF then you should write a letter to every school board member, Vitti, and your alumni board.  It is not too late and if you are a graduate they can not come after you and paint you out like some sort of extremist because you like your school name.

Ron is not the only one to think that the name is a great history lesson.  Here is a column by Mark Woods that says the same thing:  http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say

I have been saying this too. It is the right thing to do.

There is still hope. The Board and Vitti could change.

Will not engage or read the above posting, just refocus on where the discussion currently is and needs to be. The bottom line right now is that the necessary arguments about the issue were made to the school board already, days and days ago.  Those arguing to keep the name failed to persuade the school board and they "unanimously" voted to go forward with the process necessary to change the name.  During that process those who are identified as stakeholders in the issue will be given documentation by the school board to fill out and reply to.  There will also be another open meeting where "stakeholders" can make their case one last time.  At that point the Superintendent will make a recommendation as to what the name should be and the final word will go to the school board.  Vitti has already said he supports the name change and the opinion of the school board at this juncture is also quite clear.  All of them without exception voted to move the process forward.  That is where we are at this juncture and no jawing on this forum by those wanting to retain the name on the school is going to make one bit of difference as a the decision has already been made. 

On another and more sane note.  Those who are working to make sure the name change proceeds without difficulty and that the school board be kept abreast of the overwhelming and growing support for the name change, have plans already in motion that will continue to point out the importance of changing the name on a school that has caused so much angst for the community. A name that honors a creator of the KKK, former slave holder, facilitator of the Fort Pillow massacre and most importantly the reality that this man and his history have "nothing" to do with Jacksonville  Interestingly, the actions and words of individuals who are attempting to have the school board change course and keep the name on the school are actually now being used to "solidify" the reality that the name must go.  No one in the position of making the final decision is the least bit impressed by the apologists or their agenda.  Their votes and statements have shown this quite clearly. 

That is why I am posting Diane.

It is so the people out there who are involved in this fight can find the right route to keeping the name. My contentions in this thread are solid and within politically acceptable boundaries set forth around us.

Their are all types of fans for Forrest. I am hoping that the my message will be replicated by them. I mean we have managed to get 16k hits on this thread. It is being read.

The School board is new and so is Vitt. None of them went to an older school in Jacksonville. They would be wise to take into consideration that they represent more than just transplants. Being new, however, I could see them seek "acceptance" from the media and the mob.  It will not serve them well unless of course they are being paid to do this already.

Tolerance. That is what is missing here.  The reasons for renaming this school are unfounded and mythical. Save our town from having to apologize for honoring one of the best Calvary soldiers ever seen.

oh and by the way, I am not this Skot guy. I am a normal every day citizen with deep roots in this State and in the City of Jacksonville.

Again this is a very good article on how this should be seen:

http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 24, 2013, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

The answer is yes, of course it can and to some level that has already begun.  :)

It has and I believe the discussion in this thread is helping educate the "stakeholders" and ultimate decision makers.

What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

Quote from: rbirds on November 24, 2013, 08:45:32 PM
What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

Great observations.  I think most who have read this thread have developed the same view. Spot on.

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 24, 2013, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday. 

The way I see it, we didn't have to move the Capitol of the country to Richmond or create a Southern annex to remember that it once served as the Capitol of the Confederacy during a 4-year war, 150 years ago. 

I also don't see the need to preserve the name as a reminder of the fight for Civil Rights locally.  Reminders are all around us.  Our city's development pattern has been shaped by the Jim Crow era and sentiment coming from it.  Neighborhoods like LaVilla, Sugar Hill and Brooklyn are smoldering shells of their former selves due to a lack of respect for African American history during the popular days of urban renewal. We have monuments for events like Ax Handle Saturday. Florida Avenue is still a shell of itself after the race riots of 1969. The path of our older highways such as I-95 and MLK Parkway were selected to serve as racial barriers.  The Northside's landscape still looks malnourished compared to other areas of town that have and continue to be invested in at a greater level.  All of these things and more are great talking points for the subject of prejudice, racism and the horrors resulting from it.

Absolutely, there are plenty of reminders.  Time.... lots of time, will allow.... finally, ideal conditions to emerge... conditions we all would love to see.   ;)

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 24, 2013, 05:27:15 PM

QuoteRon, did you actually read the entirety of this thread before posting?  My guess is that you have not because as hard as it will be for you to move beyond the personal sniping that you and Stephen often engage in, it has not been Stephen in this thread who has been at the core of faux cleverness, profanity or lack of understanding of the issue or history in this matter.  That honor goes to another who has been undone and finished by facts on this thread over and over again to the point of being rendered nothing more that an oddity of humanity. A person of foul mouth living in a world of their own resplendent denial, lies, bigotry, fanaticism and about every other low level human response one can name.  A person who has tried without success to impugn the integrity of every poster on the forum who would not fall into his bizarre need to worship a man of very questionable integrity.  A person who has morphed a discussion about a name on a high school into a self serving discussion about all of southern history and the civil war.  Does no one realize that this discussion is nothing more than a "hard on" for this poster?  Yes I said it because that is what this has now become.  Intelligent people being drawn into the madness of one mans personal agenda to further aggrandize an already grossly inflated perception of his own cleverness and ego.  He doesn't care what anyone else says or about the truth.  This is all a head game for him and so far, as long as he continues to draw people into it, he is winning that game.  He lost the argument a long time ago and this now is simply a game that to my view is not worth engaging in and by doing so losing the focus of the issue which began this thread.  Renaming one high school in one city that had nothing to do with it's namesake.   ::)

Diane you are a piece of work.  You are delusional.  This description fits you perfectly. I can not count how many times you all have tried to pin a personality to this situation so you can then smear and pile upon them. I invite anyone to go back and look at the converstation. It is rather clear who has good intentions and who does not. 

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

Nothing new has been brought forth to change any of the above.

The fight may seem like it is over but the board could still change their mind and so could Vitti.  They just need to hear from regular people like me about how this is the wrong thing to do.  Everyone out there is scared to talk about this issue. They do not want to be labeled by people like you.

I will say this, if you went to school at NBF then you should write a letter to every school board member, Vitti, and your alumni board.  It is not too late and if you are a graduate they can not come after you and paint you out like some sort of extremist because you like your school name.

Ron is not the only one to think that the name is a great history lesson.  Here is a column by Mark Woods that says the same thing:  http://members.jacksonville.com/opinion/premium/blog/401949/mark-woods/2013-10-05/mark-woods-study-history-those-forrest-debate-say

I have been saying this too. It is the right thing to do.

There is still hope. The Board and Vitti could change.

Don't confuse them with facts Sgarey123, they have created a story from whole cloth and held court resulting in conviction on all counts. The name will be senselessly changed as another tiny part of a national campaign to erase every vestige of the Confederacy from our collective memory. Once the deed is done there will be mob-think back slapping about what great and noble, caring people they all are. Its not going to end here, the statue in Hemming Park will have to go, Lee, Jackson, Davis, Stuart et al are history. The Confederate flag will not be permitted at Olustee, Camp Milton, Yellow Bluff, St. Johns Bluff, Horse Landing etc. There is already a move afoot to boot the Confederate reenactors out of local parades in Brunswick.

When they are 'done' crime will have ceased, no one will feel hate, endless kisses all around but some will still be empty. You see Christian Churches have crosses, and crosses remind us of the Klan, which remind us of Forrest, which reminds us of hate. In my lifetime I've seen Christian prayer eliminated from school, Bibles gone, now free assembly of Christian groups is under assault, how long do you think it will be before we padlock the last one? Then we'll be truly enlightened!

Lastly several people will just on here and tell me I've gone over the edge, how irresponsible, how unfeeling, how could I?

This is a witch hunt and guess who the witches are?

LOL, Ock. Seriously, what are the facts? I'm confused.

Are you claiming that the opening of an all-white school (five years after Brown vs. Board of Education) and the overriding of the name selected by the students in favor of something by the Daughters of the Confederacy is false?

If not, why would we be overriding the community on name selection and opening an all-white school five years after the supreme court declared this unconstitutional?

If so, provide a counter argument based on more than opinion to suggest that these acts did not happen. 

Also, I'd love to get your perspective on rbird's post earlier today:

Quote from: rbirds on November 24, 2013, 11:29:06 AM
Sgarey123 suggests Forrest was not a member of the KKK and was not a racist.

Well, what do historians say about Forrest? A few examples followed by an interview with a former slave who witnessed KKK violence during the brief time Forrest led this organization.  This is the real person for whom his defenders stand up in this discussion:

1) Jack Hurst, "Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography". Random House, 1993. 

"Forrest is more remembered for an even greater mistake [the author is referring to the Ft. Pillow massacre]: his brief leadership in galvanizing the terror of the Ku Klux Klan." (p. 384)

"Forrest...had plainly tired [by 1875] of the race struggle, as well as of his own reputation as Fort Pillow's Butcher and the Klan's grand wizard. Living in a city whose only barbers were blacks, he had made it a postbellum practice never to patronize the same one twice in succession, lest a plot be hatched to slit his throat." (p. 366)

2) Owen J. Dwyer, "Symbolic Accretion and Commemoration", in the journal "Social & Cultural Geography" (2006) , pp. 419-435.

"Controversy has erupted in Selma, Alabama, over recent efforts to commemorate the career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate cavalry officer and founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. More generally, the controversy in Selma is emblematic of an enduring regional pattern in which contests over the future are couched in terms of the past. Relative to other media, monuments appear to be trustworthy and lasting. Despite this appearance of historical consensus and stability, the city's public spaces are the product of and conduit for ongoing politics."

3) David M. Chalmers, "Hooded Americanism: The First Century of the Ku Klux Klan, 1865-1965". Doubleday, 1965.

"According to Forrest, the Klan had been a law-and-order organization to restore authority to insecure and fearful Southern whites. The 'organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all." (p. 21).

4) Laura Martin Rose, "The Ku Klux Klan: or Invisible Empire". L. Graham Co. 1914. (a KKK sympathizer is the author of this book)

She includes a letter written to her by one of the last surviving charter members of the Ku Klux Klan. She quotes from the letter, dated October 25, 1908:

"The younger generation will never fully realize the risk we ran, and the sacrifices we made to free our beloved Southland from the hated rule of the 'Carpetbagger,' the worse negro and the home Yankee...After the order grew to large numbers, we found it was necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General N.B. Forrest, who had joined our number. He was made a member and took the oath in the Room No. 10 of the Maxwell House at Nashvile, Tennessee, in the fall of 1866, nearly a year after we organized at Pulaski." (p. 22)

"The superstition of the negro is well known, and through this element in his makeup, the ku Klux Klan gained control. They made the negroes believe that they were the ghosts of their dead masters, and under the conviction that if they did wrong, spirits from the other world would visit them; the negroes became very quiet and subdued." (p. 19)

5) Court Carney, "The Contested Image of Nathan Bedford Forrest," in the "Journal of Southern History," (2001).

"A notorious slave trader and an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest became an obvious target for African American anger and contempt." (p. 601).

"Although Forrest and others later insisted that the Klan functioned only as a political organization, racial terrorism became the hallmark of Klan activities. Forrest, however, lost interest in the Klan once it outgrew his immediate authority." (p. 603)

As far as KKK activities during the time Forrest was its leader, here is an interview of a former slave. The transcript is in the WPA Slave Narrative Project, North Carolina Narratives, Volume 11, Part 2, Federal Writer's Project, United States Work Projects Administration (USWPA); Manuscript Division, Library of Congress:


"I [Ben Johnson, born into slavery in 1848 and interviewed in 1933] was born in Orange County [North Carolina] and I belong to Mr. Glibert Gregg near Hillsboro. I don't know nothin' 'bout my mammy and daddy, but I had a brother Jim who was sold to dress young misses fer her weddin'. The tree is still standing where I set under an' watch them sell Jim. I set dar an' I cry an' cry, especially when they puts the chains on him an' carries him off, an' I ain't never felt so lonesome in my whole life. I ain't never hear from Jim since an' I wonder now sometimes if'en he's still living.

I knows that the master was good to us an' he fed an' clothed us good. We had our own garden an' we was gitten' long all right.

I seed a whole heap of Yankees when they comed to Hillsboro an' most of them ain't got no respect for God, man, nor the devil. I can't remember so much about them though cause we lives in town... an' we has a gyard.

The most that I can tell you 'bout is the Klu Klux. I never will forget when they hung Cy Guy. They hung him for a scandalous insult to a white woman an' they comed after him a hundred strong.

They tries him there in the woods, an' they scratches Cy's arm to get some blood, an' with that blood they writes that he shall hang 'tween the heavens and the earth till he is dead, dead, dead, and that any n***** what takes down the body shall be hanged too.

Well sir, the next morning there he hung, right over the road an' the sentence hanging over his head. Nobody would bother with that body for four days an' there it hung, swinging in the wind, but the fourth day the sheriff comes an' takes it down.

There was Ed an' Cindy, who before the war belonged to Mr Lynch an' after the war he told them to move. He gives them a month and they ain't gone, so the Ku Kluxes gets them.

It was on a cold night when they came and dragged the n*****s out of bed. They carried them down in the woods an' whup them, then they throes them in the pond, their bodies breakin' the ice. Ed comes out an' come to our house, but Cindy ain't been seen since.

Sam Allen in Caswell County was told to move an' after a month the hundred Ku Klux came a-totin' his casket an' they tells him that his time has come an' if he wants to tell his wife goodbye an' say his prayers; hurry up.

They set the coffin on two chairs an' Sam kisses his old woman who's a-crying, then he kneels down beside his bed with his head on the pillar an' his arms thrown out in front of him.

He sits there for a minute an' when he rose he had a long knife in his hand. Before he could be grabbed, he done kill two of the Klu Kluxes with the knife, an' he done gone out of the door. They ain't catch him neither, and the next night when they came back, determined to get him, they shot another n***** by accident.

Bob Boylan falls in love with another woman, so he burns his wife an' four youngsters up in their house.

The Ku Kluxes gets him, of course, an' they hangs him high on the old red oak on the Hillsboro Road, After they hanged him, his lawyer says to us boys: 'Bury him good, boys, just as good as you'd bury me if I was daid'

I shook hands with Bob before they hanged him an' I helped bury him too an' we bury him nice an' we all hopes that he done gone to glory."

__________________________________________

Truly a great person. We should name more stuff after him.

Quote from: rbirds on November 24, 2013, 08:45:32 PM
What I notice with online posters like sgarey123 is the reflexive imperviousness to any argument.  Cite a dozen authorities, throw in a letter from a charter member of the KKK, cite contemporary witnesses to the violent and racist behavior of the organization during the period Forrest led it and it all just bounces off the fortress wall erected to segregate the poster from any real argument.

I note sgarey123 alludes to evidence but describes none of it. I see no description of the alleged authorities or discussion of their qualifications.  Just a claim that the authorities indeed question how mainstream history has treated Forrest.

I did not go to the trouble of finding an online source for Forrest's own testimony before Congressional panels after the war as he defended himself against accusations of war crimes and where he describes himself as leader of the KKK. But I can see adding such authentic first-person accounts would have made no difference.

This discussion reminds of interviews with Holocaust deniers and those who argue the Civil War was NOT fought over slavery, the mountains of contrary evidence notwithstanding.

Alright Rbirds, I did not ignore those sources. The fact was I brought a source to discuss and ended up getting several questionable sources thrown back at me.  I did not dismiss the other sources. I merely said they were debatable. Again being initiated into a club you are supposed to have founded is interesting. Don't you think?  How many of these sources have been contradictory. I would say most of them. I even alluded to the link I posted saying that it explains the shroud of information out there.  Go dig up his testimony! I would love to read that.

The fact is you guys do not like my contentions because I simply have a different way of looking at this. It would be impossible for this good old boy MJ club to be wrong.  I disagreed with you all and you immediately tried to find out who I was and where I lived so you could trash me personally instead of discuss the issues. It has continued to happen OVER AND OVER.  You guys then proceeded to post pages and pages of KKK history on the board that had nothing to do with Forrest and was in a different part of history.  Diane "master smearer" tried to claim I was two different people and grilled me to see if she could figure it out. Shameful. This is why you guys get so little input from the other side by the way. They all heard about the FBC guy who got outed on this site. This place is a mouse trap. 

You guys are bitter animals. You have sided with the slaughter of a historical figure. They already disgraced his park...his grave! Now we are going to justify that action by renaming a school? With a entirely new school board? With a new Superintendent? Do you not see how fishy that all sounds?

You guys keep acting like I am the extreme one. But as I said earlier, you can take these left wing ideals, wipe regional culture away, and then show intolerance of opposition....what do you get? Fascism.  Down the road I could see you guys discussing stringing up descendants of Confederates?

You all profess to love Jacksonville. If you did you would leave the old school world around to teach us and focus on building a better new one. You would be able to respect that there is a large group that does not think like you all do. You would be able to discuss the renaming of Forrest high school without losing your cool.

Renaming is probably going to happen. I know this and I disagree with it but I am going to hang in here and get ready for the next school or for the next monument you want to trash...The next bit of history you want to erase.

Nathan Bedford was a warrior. He did his job and has world wide recognition for his tactics and skills. I respect the man and since I have been taught well I can visualize the historical context of the time. I have read his words and I have researched him due to all this and I find him to be worthy of a school name.

You have to understand here. If Nathan Bedford Forrest is not allowed to exist. Then what about the rest of us? Are we going to sit in the back of the buses now? Are we going to be considered second class citizens for who we are?  This guy is one of our heroes and he is being wiped away from this country. It is a matter of time before it reaches the Confederate descendant.  This is the wrong path. This is the wrong message.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2013, 10:46:38 PM

Don't confuse them with facts Sgarey123, they have created a story from whole cloth and held court resulting in conviction on all counts. The name will be senselessly changed as another tiny part of a national campaign to erase every vestige of the Confederacy from our collective memory. Once the deed is done there will be mob-think back slapping about what great and noble, caring people they all are. Its not going to end here, the statue in Hemming Park will have to go, Lee, Jackson, Davis, Stuart et al are history. The Confederate flag will not be permitted at Olustee, Camp Milton, Yellow Bluff, St. Johns Bluff, Horse Landing etc. There is already a move afoot to boot the Confederate reenactors out of local parades in Brunswick.

When they are 'done' crime will have ceased, no one will feel hate, endless kisses all around but some will still be empty. You see Christian Churches have crosses, and crosses remind us of the Klan, which remind us of Forrest, which reminds us of hate. In my lifetime I've seen Christian prayer eliminated from school, Bibles gone, now free assembly of Christian groups is under assault, how long do you think it will be before we padlock the last one? Then we'll be truly enlightened!

Lastly several people will just on here and tell me I've gone over the edge, how irresponsible, how unfeeling, how could I?

This is a witch hunt and guess who the witches are?

Well said sir. I guess the second Civil Rights movement is about to begin.

Bob, I return again to the reality, which is that a variety of facts, including spin on both sides of this argument were made to the school board and those who defend keeping the name of Forrest on the school did not persuade the school board to embrace their version of the facts.

The process to change the name is underway.  As to the "witch hunt" comment, you know that is just silly.  There was and is no witch hunt.  All this was ever about is changing the name of a school which embraces a man of an arguably dubious background on a school in a city that has absolutely no connection to the man.  No one is attacking the entirety of our southern heritage so let's not make the discussion about that.  I love my heritage and does everyone else here.  The fact that we differ in views does not lessen our love of the south.  You know that.  :) 

....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2013, 12:10:40 AM
....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

Completely agree Ennis.

I see several responses from sgeary123 but beyond accusations and recriminations I see no substantial arguments demonstrating his position. Just posting a link is not an argument. Put some words on the page, citing sources and why the reader should take the sources as authoritative. I also see no counter argument to the earlier post with legitimate historians and others with personal knowledge of that historical period.

All I see are unproven claims. All smoke and foam.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2013, 12:10:40 AM
....and let's not attempt to try and define true southern heritage as a four year war that was 150 years ago.  Our history is much more in depth and diverse. Jax deserves better.

Well said. What is the real motivation for the dogged efforts to hold on to and honor the confederacy 150 years later?  Is it thinly veiled opposition to the changes brought about by civil rights legislation?  Hard to believe anyone is still hoping for secession and formation of a country separate from the USA in 2013.

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 09:17:00 PM

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 24, 2013, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 25, 2013, 06:12:37 AM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 09:17:00 PM

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 24, 2013, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

I understand what you say.  However, I refer to the idea of education, lest we forget, by the absence of reminders of the absurd actions of racist types, what can continue in the way of prejudicial and racist thinking in some minds.  You refer of course to initiating the actual behaviors and systems which activate and engage in the abuses of segregation, thus returning to conditions of the past. 

But there are advantages to what many are saying too, and I am drifting to this opinion.... which is to forget the education or reminder effort, and to simply let time erase all facets and reminders of racism and its abuses .... to remover further and completely all aspects related.  Perhaps these actions of total removal of everything related, will speed the journey to full equality and fairness in all respects.  I can live with that. 

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 25, 2013, 08:31:49 AM

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 25, 2013, 06:12:37 AM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 09:17:00 PM

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 24, 2013, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: ronchamblin on November 24, 2013, 11:23:47 AM
I haven't read much of the argument, but have a devil's advocate idea.  I'm wondering to what degree that retaining the name can, if offered and taught as such, be an educational plus, with the consequence of lessening the pressure or inclination of students and citizens to hold prejudice against minorities.  I personally have no wish to change it or to allow it to remain. It does not matter to me.

Valuable history lessons can be conveyed by way of a name, as a reminder of something generous, something terrible, a tragedy, or an event of great good and importance to mankind.  A name can also remind generations of the degree to which ignorant and prejudiced men can descend to absurdities or cruelties.

Retaining the name would allow all to remember the idea of the KKK, and the harm and suffering projected upon the minorities through its activities -- the harm and suffering caused to millions who endured slavery at an earlier time.  The name will remind citizens that the KKK's very existence gave to some citizens, ignorant and easily persuaded, a small measure of validity to the idea of prejudice and racism.

The name on the school could be a history lesson, and could be looked upon as a reminder of the past, and not a reflection of the present.  The specter of racism and hatred against minorities and ethnic populations unfortunately rests within the minds and hearts of many people even now.  We could consider allowing the name to remain, as it will remind everyone of the degree to which some individuals, as a consequence of their ignorance, thus their stupidity -- can engage in absurd prejudiced and racist thoughts about their fellow man, and thus the cruel and hateful actions which follow.

To think that the changing of a name will produce great good for society, and solve an important problem, is to focus on an inconsequential peripheral, and unfortunately allows citizenry to rest somewhat from attacking the real and critical issues, those which, unless solved, will perpetuate the very important racial and ethnic problems we've all inherited from the past.

Interesting thoughts.  However, can't the same lessons be taught by recounting the reasons for changing the name?

Well.......I see what you are getting at but... Of course if the name is changed, then there will be no reminder of that devil Forrest.... of what some men, in their ignorance and warped inclinations, are capable of.  There will be no history lesson on the subject of prejudice and racism, and the horrors and suffering resulting from it.  If we clean the memory of events and actions related to suffering and its causes, it, or something similar, might creep back upon us in time. 

But again, whether the name is changed or not, makes no difference to me.  I'lll be happy either way.  I just like the idea of keeping things around that offer continual stimuli and education.  If we removed all abrasive reminders of cruel individuals and their actions, wouldn't it be rather dull in the neighborhood?  And too, when religion is finally removed from the minds of all men, I would still wish to have the occasional church around to remind everyone that religions lived in these buildings, wherein absurdities were exchanged every Sunday.

Perhaps we should reinstitute separate drinking fountains and restrooms lest we forget how "coloreds" were treated in the pre-civil rights era.  Just so no one forgets....

I understand what you say.  However, I refer to the idea of education, lest we forget, by the absence of reminders of the absurd actions of racist types, what can continue in the way of prejudicial and racist thinking in some minds.  You refer of course to initiating the actual behaviors and systems which activate and engage in the abuses of segregation, thus returning to conditions of the past. 

But there are advantages to what many are saying too, and I am drifting to this opinion.... which is to forget the education or reminder effort, and to simply let time erase all facets and reminders of racism and its abuses .... to remover further and completely all aspects related.  Perhaps these actions of total removal of everything related, will speed the journey to full equality and fairness in all respects.  I can live with that.

My mistake with poor wording.  I was thinking not of forcing anyone to use separate facilities.  Just to have them in place as visible reminders.  Obviously, I was using an extreme/absurd example in an attempt to expose what I view as flawed logic.

Want a reminder? Add an exhibit in a history museum and call it a day.

The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

750, 000 people died! That would equate to 2 million today. This touched every house hold. It was hell. 

it was the first war of the modern era. They had casualies of 25000 sometimes in one battle!

Compare the numbers to pearl harbor, 9/11 and it really puts things into perspective. Remember only 5000 people hanged over a few decades?

what you all are supporting is the removal of a piece of this history.  Its funny because its obvious you all need to learn about it.

Finally If you post sources and I ignore then realize there is a reason. You ignored my source. Furthermore my source explained what was wrong with yours. There are some bold claims in the link I posted.

You must realize thar holding off several all at once (some with less than civil tactics) is not easy.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 25, 2013, 09:37:07 AM
The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

I submit to you that WWII defined the lives of everyone posting on this thread far more than the Civil War. Had we lost that war, who is to say what civil liberties any of us would enjoy? Yet we have no schools here that I'm aware of named after FDR, Eisenhower, Truman or MacArthur.

Yes, I would have thought it obvious too until I found this thread....

Quote from: kbhanson3 on November 25, 2013, 10:32:59 AM

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 25, 2013, 09:37:07 AM
The reason those 4 years were so pivotal should be obvious to everyone. To act like they didnt define everything else moving forward is outright idiocy.

I submit to you that WWII defined the lives of everyone posting on this thread far more than the Civil War. Had we lost that war, who is to say what civil liberties any of us would enjoy? Yet we have no schools here that I'm aware of named after FDR, Eisenhower, Truman or MacArthur.

We do have Joseph Stillwell Middle School. However, like most folks with schools named after them in Duval County, he was a local (born in Palatka). That's one of the key differences, and of course he doesn't have the black marks on his name that Forrest does.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on November 24, 2013, 11:55:58 PM
Bob, I return again to the reality, which is that a variety of facts, including spin on both sides of this argument were made to the school board and those who defend keeping the name of Forrest on the school did not persuade the school board to embrace their version of the facts.

The process to change the name is underway.  As to the "witch hunt" comment, you know that is just silly.  There was and is no witch hunt.  All this was ever about is changing the name of a school which embraces a man of an arguably dubious background on a school in a city that has absolutely no connection to the man.  No one is attacking the entirety of our southern heritage so let's not make the discussion about that.  I love my heritage and does everyone else here.  The fact that we differ in views does not lessen our love of the south.  You know that.  :)

I rather considered myself, Sgarey123 and General Forrest, to be the witches in this hunt. i'm pretty certain that once the name is gone, we'll need to exorcise the demons in us too, I mean after all 'El Duce' is pretty hefty company. LOL

When the last southern monument falls to this inane 'final solution,' I will support using the names of famous men from WWII, 'Admiral Halsey,' would be nice and 'Vinegar Joe,' is a good start. The only catch I see being that in about another 90 years, when the current crop of revisionists have spawned their fry, they will have convinced the world that Pearl Harbor sailed out and snuck up on the Japanese Imperial fleet... In fact that revision is already in the pipeline.

Ock, what's your take on rbird's posts of eye witness accounts of Forrest?  You guys seem to be ignoring them rather than directly responding.

I will post something on these later today as I hadn't seen them; only being in this conversation for a couple of short days en total.

Headed up to the doc again as they are working me up for surgery #1 of what is likely 4, starting Jan 3. Seems like I have no time anymore but I will go back and respond.

Ok. Good luck with the doc.

Ww2 was a big deal but it was not on our soil. You had Americans killing Americans. Brothers killing brothers. Mussolini was not American. The South was allowed to keep its heros to heal the wounds and create a successful surrender.

The comparison is juvenile and does not fit whatsoever.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 25, 2013, 12:51:26 PM
Ww2 was a big deal but it was not on our soil. You had Americans killing Americans. Brothers killing brothers. Mussolini was not American. The South was allowed to keep its heros to heal the wounds and create a successful surrender.

The comparison is juvenile and does not fit whatsoever.

Not that you are interested in facts that don't support your narrative but Jacksonville had less than 3,000 residents in 1860. By 1940, "pre-consolidation" Jacksonville's population had increased above 173,000. 

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/twps0027.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville,_Florida

In other words, Macclenny is twice the size today that Jacksonville was during the Civil War. The St. Johns Shipbuilding Company's shipyard on Bay Street employed 10 times as many Jax residents alone in 1944 churning out liberty ships for WWII. That doesn't include all the military installations, shipbuilding and manufacturing companies that helped in the war effort.  That trickles down as far as bakeries in the Springfield Warehouse District supplying fresh baked goods for the war effort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Johns_River_Shipbuilding_Company

The story may not be the same for Forrest's Tennessee but it's not illogical to suggest that WWII has had a greater impact on where this city is today.

No one said WW2 did not have a big impact. It did.

Why do you think all those people moved into Jacksonville.

Excuse me but for a great deal of time I was the only opposition. This affords one to drive the narrative. I responded to all attacks...I will revist rbirds later aswell.

^See posts 435 and 443 above to get a better idea of the meaning of post 445. Anyway, I look forward to reading your rebuttal of post 394 (quoted below):

Quote from: rbirds on November 24, 2013, 11:29:06 AM
Sgarey123 suggests Forrest was not a member of the KKK and was not a racist.

Well, what do historians say about Forrest? A few examples followed by an interview with a former slave who witnessed KKK violence during the brief time Forrest led this organization.  This is the real person for whom his defenders stand up in this discussion:

1) Jack Hurst, "Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography". Random House, 1993. 

"Forrest is more remembered for an even greater mistake [the author is referring to the Ft. Pillow massacre]: his brief leadership in galvanizing the terror of the Ku Klux Klan." (p. 384)

"Forrest...had plainly tired [by 1875] of the race struggle, as well as of his own reputation as Fort Pillow's Butcher and the Klan's grand wizard. Living in a city whose only barbers were blacks, he had made it a postbellum practice never to patronize the same one twice in succession, lest a plot be hatched to slit his throat." (p. 366)

2) Owen J. Dwyer, "Symbolic Accretion and Commemoration", in the journal "Social & Cultural Geography" (2006) , pp. 419-435.

"Controversy has erupted in Selma, Alabama, over recent efforts to commemorate the career of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate cavalry officer and founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. More generally, the controversy in Selma is emblematic of an enduring regional pattern in which contests over the future are couched in terms of the past. Relative to other media, monuments appear to be trustworthy and lasting. Despite this appearance of historical consensus and stability, the city's public spaces are the product of and conduit for ongoing politics."

3) David M. Chalmers, "Hooded Americanism: The First Century of the Ku Klux Klan, 1865-1965". Doubleday, 1965.

"According to Forrest, the Klan had been a law-and-order organization to restore authority to insecure and fearful Southern whites. The 'organization was got up to protect the weak, with no political intention at all." (p. 21).

4) Laura Martin Rose, "The Ku Klux Klan: or Invisible Empire". L. Graham Co. 1914. (a KKK sympathizer is the author of this book)

She includes a letter written to her by one of the last surviving charter members of the Ku Klux Klan. She quotes from the letter, dated October 25, 1908:

"The younger generation will never fully realize the risk we ran, and the sacrifices we made to free our beloved Southland from the hated rule of the 'Carpetbagger,' the worse negro and the home Yankee...After the order grew to large numbers, we found it was necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General N.B. Forrest, who had joined our number. He was made a member and took the oath in the Room No. 10 of the Maxwell House at Nashvile, Tennessee, in the fall of 1866, nearly a year after we organized at Pulaski." (p. 22)

"The superstition of the negro is well known, and through this element in his makeup, the ku Klux Klan gained control. They made the negroes believe that they were the ghosts of their dead masters, and under the conviction that if they did wrong, spirits from the other world would visit them; the negroes became very quiet and subdued." (p. 19)

5) Court Carney, "The Contested Image of Nathan Bedford Forrest," in the "Journal of Southern History," (2001).

"A notorious slave trader and an early leader of the Ku Klux Klan, Nathan Bedford Forrest became an obvious target for African American anger and contempt." (p. 601).

"Although Forrest and others later insisted that the Klan functioned only as a political organization, racial terrorism became the hallmark of Klan activities. Forrest, however, lost interest in the Klan once it outgrew his immediate authority." (p. 603)

As far as KKK activities during the time Forrest was its leader, here is an interview of a former slave. The transcript is in the WPA Slave Narrative Project, North Carolina Narratives, Volume 11, Part 2, Federal Writer's Project, United States Work Projects Administration (USWPA); Manuscript Division, Library of Congress:


"I [Ben Johnson, born into slavery in 1848 and interviewed in 1933] was born in Orange County [North Carolina] and I belong to Mr. Glibert Gregg near Hillsboro. I don't know nothin' 'bout my mammy and daddy, but I had a brother Jim who was sold to dress young misses fer her weddin'. The tree is still standing where I set under an' watch them sell Jim. I set dar an' I cry an' cry, especially when they puts the chains on him an' carries him off, an' I ain't never felt so lonesome in my whole life. I ain't never hear from Jim since an' I wonder now sometimes if'en he's still living.

I knows that the master was good to us an' he fed an' clothed us good. We had our own garden an' we was gitten' long all right.

I seed a whole heap of Yankees when they comed to Hillsboro an' most of them ain't got no respect for God, man, nor the devil. I can't remember so much about them though cause we lives in town... an' we has a gyard.

The most that I can tell you 'bout is the Klu Klux. I never will forget when they hung Cy Guy. They hung him for a scandalous insult to a white woman an' they comed after him a hundred strong.

They tries him there in the woods, an' they scratches Cy's arm to get some blood, an' with that blood they writes that he shall hang 'tween the heavens and the earth till he is dead, dead, dead, and that any n***** what takes down the body shall be hanged too.

Well sir, the next morning there he hung, right over the road an' the sentence hanging over his head. Nobody would bother with that body for four days an' there it hung, swinging in the wind, but the fourth day the sheriff comes an' takes it down.

There was Ed an' Cindy, who before the war belonged to Mr Lynch an' after the war he told them to move. He gives them a month and they ain't gone, so the Ku Kluxes gets them.

It was on a cold night when they came and dragged the n*****s out of bed. They carried them down in the woods an' whup them, then they throes them in the pond, their bodies breakin' the ice. Ed comes out an' come to our house, but Cindy ain't been seen since.

Sam Allen in Caswell County was told to move an' after a month the hundred Ku Klux came a-totin' his casket an' they tells him that his time has come an' if he wants to tell his wife goodbye an' say his prayers; hurry up.

They set the coffin on two chairs an' Sam kisses his old woman who's a-crying, then he kneels down beside his bed with his head on the pillar an' his arms thrown out in front of him.

He sits there for a minute an' when he rose he had a long knife in his hand. Before he could be grabbed, he done kill two of the Klu Kluxes with the knife, an' he done gone out of the door. They ain't catch him neither, and the next night when they came back, determined to get him, they shot another n***** by accident.

Bob Boylan falls in love with another woman, so he burns his wife an' four youngsters up in their house.

The Ku Kluxes gets him, of course, an' they hangs him high on the old red oak on the Hillsboro Road, After they hanged him, his lawyer says to us boys: 'Bury him good, boys, just as good as you'd bury me if I was daid'

I shook hands with Bob before they hanged him an' I helped bury him too an' we bury him nice an' we all hopes that he done gone to glory."

__________________________________________

Truly a great person. We should name more stuff after him.

I tracked down the last three names from my list of middle and high schools whose names I couldn't track down. Lo and behold, all three were local figures.

High Schools
•   1868 Stanton College Preparatory School (Florida's first real African-American school, made 1-12 in 1917. It became a high school in the 1940s, moved to its current location in 1953 and became a magnet in 1981) – named for Edwin M. Stanton, Secretary of War under Abraham Lincoln
•   1922 Douglas Anderson School of the Arts (originally South Jacksonville School # 107, serving grades 1-9. It was renamed for Anderson in 1945 and became a high school from 1955-1968. It re-opened as an arts magnet in 1985)– originally an African-American school, named  for local civil rights leader Douglas Anderson
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts (became a high school following a merger of previous African-American schools; Bethune-Cookman University also grew out of this). Originally the Cookman Institute, the name commemorates its original founders, the reverends S.B. Darnell and Alfred Cookman.
•   1927: Andrew Jackson – named for Andrew Jackson, Jacksonville's namesake, military governor of Florida and U.S. president
•   1928: Robert E. Lee – named for leading Confederate general Robert E. Lee
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949) Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – named for the town, itself named for Florida, Atlantic and Gulf Central Railroad president Dr. Abel Seymour Baldwin
•   1937: Duncan U. Fletcher High School – named for U.S. Senator and former Mayor of Jacksonville Duncan U. Fletcher, who secured the federal grant to build the school
•   1954: Paxon School for Advanced Studies (originally Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School; made a magnet in 1996) – named for the former Paxon Air Field where the school  is located
•   1955: Terry Parker High School – named for local philanthropist H. Terry Parker, who donated the land for the school
•   1956: Englewood High School – named for the Englewood neighborhood
•   1957: Jean Ribault High School – named for French explorer Jean Ribault, who visited Northeast Florida and the St. Johns River in 1562
•   1959: Nathan Bedford Forrest High School – named for Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest
•   1964: Samuel W. Wolfson – named for local businessman Samuel W. Wolfson, owner of the Jacksonville Braves and Suns
•   1965: William M. Raines High School – named for local educator William Marion Raines, principal of Matthew Gilbert High School from 1938-1950
•   1969 (Reorganized and renamed in 1997): Frank H. Peterson Academies of Technology – named for Westsude businessman Frank H. Peterson, a promoter of career education (link (http://www.lexisnexis.com/lnacui2api/api/version1/getDocCui?lni=3SD5-JG80-009G-N0VF&csi=155140&hl=t&hv=t&hnsd=f&hns=t&hgn=t&oc=00240&perma=true))
•   1970: Sandalwood High School – named for the neighborhood of Sandalwood
•   1971: Edward H. White High School – named for astronaut Edward Higgins White,  the first American to walk in space; killed in training in 1967
•   1977: A. Philip Randolph Academies of Technology – named for local civil rights and labor leader Asa Philip Randolph
•   1990: First Coast High School - named for the regional designation First Coast
•   1990: Mandarin High School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   2010: Atlantic Coast High School – general reference to the region
•   Duval High School: opened 1873, rebuilt in 1908 after the Great Fire, closed in 1927 as several more high schools were built. Named for the county, itself named for William Pope Duval, Florida's first non-military governor


Middle Schools
•   1923: Kirby-Smith Middle School (previously Kirby-Smith High School before 1992) – named for Edmond Kirby Smith, Confederate general from St. Augustine and subsequently an educator at Sewanee, the University of the South
•   1923 Darnell-Cookman Middle/High School, School of the Medical Arts – see above
•   1927 Matthew W. Gilbert Middle School (originally elementary; added junior high in 1939, renamed for Gilbert in 1950, became Gilbert Junior-Senior High School in 1952, then a junior high in 1971, with 7th grade only from 1972-1990) – named for Bethel Baptist Institutional Church pastor Matthew W. Gilbert, who founded the Florida Baptist Academy, an early African American school
•   1928 Julia E. Landon Middle School (originally Landon High School, made a middle school in 1964) – named for South Jacksonville educator Julia Landon
•   1929 (rebuilt in 1949): Baldwin Middle-Senior High School – see above
•   1940: Alfred I. DuPont Middle School (originally Alfred I. DuPont High School, transitioned to middle school in 1992) – named for Alfred I. DuPont, locally important business magnate and founder of the DuPont Trust and Nemours
•   1940: Lake Shore Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Lake Shore
•   1953: Eugene J. Butler Middle School (originally Eugene J. Butler Junior-Senior High School) – named for Eugene J. Butler, former principal at Gilbert High School (link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=n9QmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kgIGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4469,4101092&dq=eugene-butler+jacksonville&hl=en))
•   1952: James Weldon Johnson Middle School – named for James Weldon Johnson, prominent author and civil rights leader from Jacksonville
•   1957: Paxon Middle School – split from Paxon Field Junior-Senior High School
•   1959: Jean Ribault Middle School – split from Jean Ribault High School
•   1961: Jefferson Davis Middle School – named for Confederate President Jefferson Davis
•   1961: Arlington Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Arlington
•   1963: Joseph Stilwell Middle School – named for Joseph Stilwell, World War II general born in Palatka
•   1964: Duncan U. Fletcher Middle School – split from Fletcher High School
•   1964: Fort Caroline Middle School – named for the nearby Fort Caroline monument, one of the first European settlements in the continental U.S.
•   1966: J.E.B. Stuart Middle School – named for Confederate general James Ewell Brown "J.E.B." Stuart
•   1969: Highlands Middle School (made magnet in 2005) – named for the neighborhood of Highlands
•   1977: Mayport Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mayport
•   Before 1986: Southside Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Southside
•   1990: Mandarin Middle School – named for the neighborhood of Mandarin
•   1990: Landmark Middle School – appears to be a generic name
•   1998: Twin Lakes Academy Middle School – named for the two ponds located on the school grounds
•   1999?: Northwestern Middle School – named for the Northwestern region of Jacksonville
•   2000: LaVilla School of the Arts – named for the neighborhood of LaVilla
•   2002: Kernan Middle School – named for Kernan Boulevard, itself named for Kernan Hodges, local philanthropist and landowner with her husband George
•   2002: Oceanway Middle School (branched off of Oceanway Elementary) – named for the neighborhood of Oceanway
•   2004: John E. Ford K-8 (expanded from John E. Ford Elementary) – named for John E. Ford, longtime Bethel Baptist pastor and teacher at Florida Baptist Academy (link (http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_events/view/john-e-ford-minister-and-more)
•   2009: Westview K-8 – appears to be a generic reference


This means that the vast majority of our middle and high schools are named for people or places of local significance to Jacksonville and Northeast Florida. Not that it needs to be hammered home any more, but out of 47 middle and high schools, only six are named for someone with no connection to Jacksonville or Northeast Florida:

•Stanton College Preparatory School (1868) - Edwin M. Stanton, the sitting Secretary of War and a major Union figure in the Civil War
•Robert E. Lee High School (1928) - leading Confederate general
•Nathan Bedford Forrest High School (1959) - Confederate general
•Jefferson Davis Middle School (1961) - Confederate president
•JEB Stuart Middle School (1966) - Confederate general
•Ed White High School (1971) - astronaut Edward Higgins White, first American to walk in space; killed in training in 1967

The picture's pretty clear.

All Sgarey is doing is taking your list and labeling local individual as "southern" to suggest that the trend of naming schools is "southern leaders". Thus, he can then lump the few confederate schools into it. So, it doesn't matter if the person is Forrest or James Weldon Johnson or if either has any direct relationship to Jacksonville. Both are "southern-born" people that were viewed as leaders by certain groups.

Ennis, I have puzzled quite a bit over the exchanges Sgarey has had with everyone on this forum and why he feels the need to ignore anything and everything that points to him being wrong in his views of this issue and how he is defending it.  What I realized is that his defensive attitude is really not about Forrest, the south or anything really to do with this issue. He has gone beyond the issue and is simply defending himself and his viewpoint at all costs and to the point of desperation.  Dug in his heels as it were and twisting any piece of information put before him into something with which to further defend himself and at the same time elevating himself as a sort of imaginary martyr of the south.  While the ongoing exchanges have offered multiple opportunities to add new facts and information to the argument about the name change it is pretty clear that Sgarey and others like him are simply afraid, very deeply afraid. He has constructed a reality for himself that is being threatened by the name change and this very conversation.  This is why he lashes out at everyone and listens to no one but himself or those who agree with his rigid beliefs regardless of their validity. 

The other human aspect that is being displayed through him and the few others who want to keep the Forrest name on our high school is the growing recognition that the world is changing and along with it attitudes are changing as well.  What was once embraced as the status quo when it comes to racial differences and perceived inferiority of one group making them less than another, is now seen and understood for what it is which is bigotry i.e. racism based upon nothing more than the color of ones skin.  That in and of itself is a sickness of human mind and spirit that most of Jacksonville is no longer willing to tolerate and that scares the hell out of some folk because their entire identity is tied up in a fantasy lived via the old south, the civil war and as an extension the control it afforded those who were not black. That privilege was long exercised in the south and in our own city via our politics, education system and our processes of development.  On the flip side their continues the destruction of communities to fit a certain ideal which was for many based in an ongoing attempt to keep the Blacks of the south in a defensive and controlled mode.  Ennis touched on this above when he spoke of the areas in our city like LaVilla or to the tragedy of Axe handle Saturday, all pure Jacksonville history. 

To this point I hope those in the community who support the name change, as well as the school board members who had the wisdom to vote unanimously to move the name change forward and Mr. Vitti who had the strength of character to know this change was long overdue will factor in what I have said above.  This is about the change of a name on one of our schools that is a statement to the nation and the world, that the people of Jacksonville do not hold with the ideals of a man like Nathan B. Forrest, who was a slave holder, facilitator of a major massacre and the founder of the KKK.  We are past that and cannot honor those values.  Jacksonville is evolving and that is horrifying to some but the evolution in mindset is long overdue.  Jacksonville will evolve and will always be entrenched in it's rich southern history, that is a given.  Enough of the hysteria about losing southern history or that which pretends Nathan B. Forrest was a hero or the claim that monuments are being lost. A school is not a monument, it is a place of education.  What is underneath all of this discussion is fear of change and fear of a loss of identity which for some is tied to an imaginary past which none of them lived through or had a part of yet are want to defend because it is easier to pretend at caring about history than it is to admit to harboring long held bigoted ideas and that is what Jacksonville is struggling to be free of. 

Certainly this post will result in a fevered response by Sgarey, likely a few insults as well which I will not read or be impacted by.  As to the views of my old friend Bob, well I give him a pass because I love him, he knows that. 

Please ignore the sensationalist poster above ^^^ she has issues. She has been ignoring me so...quid pro quo.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2013, 04:26:21 PM
All Sgarey is doing is taking your list and labeling local individual as "southern" to suggest that the trend of naming schools is "southern leaders". Thus, he can then lump the few confederate schools into it. So, it doesn't matter if the person is Forrest or James Weldon Johnson or if either has any direct relationship to Jacksonville. Both are "southern-born" people that were viewed as leaders by certain groups.

I am so proud of you for acknowledging/getting my point! That is good. You have to admit that it works. People were affiliated on a local, state, regional and national level.

Tacachale, I must admit I am impressed with all the work you did on that information. I did some of that research as well and some of those schools were not easy to find. It was very interesting though.  That being said we need to include the elementary school names. Also All the "exceptions" in your case were nationally known names.  Nathan Bedford Forrest was one of the most popular Generals because he was such a bad@ss.  Furthermore, if you recall I mentioned that there are a whole slew of names missing. The PS numbers represented a lot more names than are published. It is fascinating to look over the list and order and the time of history. It really allows one to get a glimpse of how people were thinking back then.  I would submit that NBF's school name does the same. I sure would like to see which ones were closed and shut down though. That would be interesting too.   It would be a cool book.

That other post is a monster...going to have to break it up.

Rbirds did some research. He worked hard on it. It deserves some answers.  However I do not know how to contest quotes from books I have not read and I do not own.  I fear that by posting so many sources and quotes all at once that this discussion will diverge into chaos with several threads going on at the same time. Next time try to break it up so people will want to read it.

Please remember that I am not champion of Forrest so much as I am a champion of his right to a place in history, on that park, and on our school here in Jacksonville. I do not study this stuff for fun. I merely grew up in this culture and I will be dammed if people from somewhere else will change stuff set in stone or in place for 54 years.  What is happening is disgusting to me.

I believe that Authors of books are out to sell books. Especially those in the last 30 years. Their history is disconnected and unfounded. The hurst book (1993), Carney book (2001), Dwyer book (2006) are much like a hollywood movie of those times. They had to get published.  The older sources like Chalmer's quote could be true but would normally be considered "heresay."

Therefore I believe the best way to handle this is to provide the source everyone has been looking for....THE SOURCE of all this....Forrest's words spoken under oath.  We can analyze this forever.

In 1871, Gen. Forrest was called before a congressional Committee.  Forrest testified before Congress personally over four hours . Here's part of the transcript of Forrest's testimony to that 1871 hearing:

"The reports of Committees, House of Representatives, second session, forty-second congress," P. 6-449. 

Source: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ACA4911.0013.001;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;cc=moa  (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa;idno=ACA4911.0013.001;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;cc=moa)

"The primary accusation before this board is that Gen. Forrest was a founder of The Klan, and its first Grand Wizard, So it shall address those accusations first." 

Forrest took the witness stand June 27th,1871. Building a railroad in Tennessee at the time, Gen Forrest stated he 'had done more , probably than any other man, to suppress these violence and difficulties and keep them down, had been vilified and abused in the (news) papers, and accused of things I never did while in the army and since.  He had nothing to hide, wanted to see this matter settled, our country quiet once more, and our people united and working together harmoniously.'

Asked if he knew of any men or combination of men violating the law or preventing the execution of the law: Gen Forest answered emphatically, 'No.' (A Committee member brought up a 'document' suggesting otherwise, the 1868 newspaper article from the "Cincinnati Commercial". That was their "evidence", a news article.)

Forrest stated ...any information he had on the Klan was information given to him by others.

Sen. Scott asked, 'Did you take any steps in organizing an association or society under that prescript (Klan constitution)?'

Forrest: 'I DID NOT'  Forrest further stated that '..he thought the Organization (Klan) started in middle Tennessee, although he did not know where. It is said I started it.'

Asked by Sen. Scott, 'Did you start it, Is that true?'

Forrest: 'No Sir, it is not.'

Asked if he had heard of the Knights of the white Camellia, a Klan-like organization in Louisiana,

Forrest: 'Yes, they were reported to be there.'

Senator: 'Were you a member of the order of the white Camellia?'

Forrest: 'No Sir, I never was a member of the Knights of the white Camellia.'

Asked about the Klan :

Forrest: 'It was a matter I knew very little about. All my efforts were addressed to stop it, disband it, and prevent it....I was trying to keep it down as much as possible.'

Forrest: 'I talked with different people that I believed were connected to it, and urged the disbandment of it, that it should be broken up.'"

http://www.flatfenders.com/scv/Forrest%20Defense.htm (http://www.flatfenders.com/scv/Forrest%20Defense.htm) - where I found all of this.

I tried to read this whole transcript but it is 149 pages!

I know you guys will tear this up and figure out how to use it against Forrest. Keep in mind he was under oath and was being grilled by unfriendly people (sorta like me on this site).

If the school board does happen to read this thread...please know that by removing Forrest from this school you discriminate against all people of Confederate heritage. A heritage that was encouraged by smart leaders to help a decimated and broken population rebuild and be proud.

It is one thing to honor someone. It is quite another to honor someone by dishonoring another.  So far throughout this entire unpleasant process I have found no concrete reason to justify renaming the school. I have only found reasons to keep it.

Alright Mr. Dare,

You are killing me man. This is getting amusing. I just posted you a link to 149 pages of Forrest under oath. That is not enough for you? Seriously? 

I answered his post. If you do not like my answer then Ock can work on it after surgery.  You want to me discredit his sources? THAT IS WHAT THE 149 PAGES DO....duh.  It seems the http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm site was accurate and all the books and videos selling hate were not. Go figure. Amazing how the people in the tribe know the tribal history the best. Amazing.

I do not have to attack all those authors personal lives. I do not have to say they are biased (they are). I provided evidence that says that their research is invalid. What source is better? The man's own testimony or several books written within the last 30 years from research?

The hardest one to discredit is the oldest one from 1914. However you have to think that she was selling something too back then. She was selling the KKK.  They used Nathan Bedford Forrest's good name to get membership.

It is understandable since he was so popular with the people.  I read 9 pages and I could completely envision why too. The man was pillar of strength holding up the remains of the South after a brutal invasion.

God Save General Nathan Bedford Forrest from the treachery of this modern and gullible time.

Here is what my source said about Jack hurst (before Rbirds posted anything):

Jack Hurst, in his biography of Forrest, is more tentative in identifying Forrest as leader of the Klan. He points out that there are several versions of stories of how Forrest is said to have an involvement with the organization and that all these stories lack documentation. Hurst also points out that the Klan did not gain significant numbers of adherents until Congress passed a Reconstruction Act on March 2, 1867. This act divided ten of the former Confederate states into five military districts and stated they would be kept under martial law until they ratified the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution which granted citizenship to African Americans.[9]

9.   Jack Hurst, Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography, p. 289 ff.

Thats one...I think they are all in there. I guess you just have to "read" it. 

I could cut and past the entire article if you like but why? Read this....It goes over "the invisible empire" and Wills and every facet of how the modern historians are wrong. It is very thorough.

Here is the link again:   http://youwereliedtoabout.com/nbf.htm

Thanks, sgarey123, for taking the time to respond. I have read through the material on your supplied link. The link is to an argument documenting some professional historians' and historical enthusiasts' treatment of NBF. The argument provides footnotes to cited material and attempts to treat the issue of NFB's association with the Klan through the works of those who have researched NBF's life.

As you have not read through all the material on NBF neither have I. Or probably anyone who has participated in this discussion, I would guess. So we all have our gaps in knowledge on the subject at hand. With that in mind we can proceed.

Forrest's testimony before the "Joint Select Committee to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs of the Late Insurrectionary States" in 1871 is interesting. The report can be found where you found it in the University of Michigan archives but also is available as a scanned Google book at http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&q=forrest#v=onepage&q&f=false . The Google version appears to be a bit more user-friendly, displaying the entire publication rather than retrieving a single page at at time as the UMich version does.

Forrest testified before this committee as sgarey123 describes. But the committee members became suspicious as Forrest denies that he has any association with the Klan even as he describes some of their operations in great detail. So suspicious did the committee become that when they designed the report they put the Klan constitution in the left-hand column and then matched Forrest's testimony in the right-hand column. In this way the report demonstrates that where the Klan constitution - or as Forrest insisted on calling them, the Klan "precepts" - instructs members to keep secret particular details of Klan procedures, Forrest claimed to know those details. These details included passwords and special Klan gestures.

The intention of reporting on some of Forrest's testimony in this way is to show that he knows details of Klan operations that only Klan members could know. The constitution warns members to reveal these details at the risk of unspecified penalties. Under the assumption that no member WOULD reveal those details the reader is left with the impression that Forrest knows those details because he WAS a member of the Klan.

Sgarey123 is correct to say that Forrest does not claim membership in the Klan, a detail I got wrong in an earlier post. But the committee, through the way it reported some of his testimony, appears convinced he really was because of what he admitted knowing about the Klan. Forrest demonstrated that he knew how large the Klan was, when it was founded, when it was formally dissolved, what the members were up to and why it was dissolved. They also describe the sworn testimony of several former Klan members who swear that Forrest was the head of the organization. And, when questioned about Klan operations, each of them used similar language to describe Klan operations, language --  similar to each other and similar to the language Forrest used to describe Klan operations.

Forrest evades and wheedles in his testimony before Congress, picking his way around direct questions about his Klan associations. After a lengthy examination of what Forrest had testified to know in an earlier interview, the committee cited several other witnesses who said the Ku-Kluxers sometimes were called "Pale Faces".  Specifically, from page 9 of the report, "Some call them Pale Faces, some call them Ku-Klux; I believe they were under two names."

Then the report recounts Forrest's testimony where he admits belonging to the Pale Faces [pp. 9-10]. The questions come from the committee, answers are from Forrest:

Question:Did you hear of the Knights of the White Camelia there [in Louisiana. The White Camelia order was another white supremacist group similar and sometimes aligned with the KKK].
Answer: Yes, they were reported to be there.
Q: Were you ever a member of that order?
A: I was.
Q: You were a member of the Knights of the White Camelia?
A: No sir; I never was a member of the Knights of the White Camelia.
Q: What order was it that you were a member of?
A: An order they called the Pale Faces - a different order from that.
Q: Where was that organized?
A: I do not know.
Q: Where did you join it?
A: In Memphis.
Q: When?
A: It was in 1867; but that was a different order from this.
Q: What was that?
A: Something like Odd Fellowship, Masonry-orders of that sort-for the purpose of protecting the weak and defenseless, &c.
Q: Something on the same principles that the Ku-Klux afterward had.
A: Something similar to that, only it was a different order.... [he then describes a mission identical to the Klan's mission]

Here we see Forrest admitting membership in the Pale Faces. We've seen in other committee testimony that the organization "Pale Faces" is another name for the Ku Klux Klan. Has Forrest just admitted membership in the Klan? No but....

This is a circumstantial connection. But circumstantial evidence has convicted many a perpetrator.

If you have some spare time, on the bye and bye, the committee report makes for some harrowing reading of how the Klan operated. These were domestic terrorists, more dangerous and efficient than what Homeland Security and the FBI rounds up these days.

Sgarey123, both in the material he provides a link to and in his posts, rightly points out that Forrest's connection to the Klan is not iron-clad. That is, no historian can pick out a piece of paper from their pile of papers that makes a direct connection between Forrest and the Klan: no membership form, no Klan-published document with Forrest's name at the top, etc. But there is his testimony that sure sounds like he admits membership despite the evasive language and picking his way around organizational names.

Then there is the letter I've cited written by a charter KKK member to a member of the Daughters of Confederate Veterans who specifically identifies Forrest as head of the Klan.  Many historians allude to this letter either in the DCV member's book or in books that refer to the letter.

So, can we say with 100% confidence that Forrest was either a member or leader of the Klan for several years? No. But given what evidence we have we can justify a strong suspicion that he was the leader.  Historians take the evidence given to them and try to make logical connections between the evidence and events they are certain of. Most of them believe Forrest indeed was the KKK leader.

I'd say he was as well. But, given the nature of the evidence we have, one can argue that we don't really, really know absolutely.

What little I read through the testimony I garnished that Nathan Bedford Forrest was a widely popular person back then. People were looking to him for leadership. They needed help. I would not put it past people to try and use him for nefarious purposes.

The governments were susceptible. The local political offices had been placed there by the Federal Government.  The only thing I could imagine would be close to comparison would be if we killed half the males in the town and then freed everyone in prison.  It sounds like utter chaos.  Forrest says himself, "There was very little law in those times."

The committee was not friendly. They were trying their very best to trip him up. I have to admit while reading through it I even got confused a few times.

There is plenty of proof about the Battle of Ft. Pillow. It was in the link I posted. 

Jacksonville does not need a signed document. There is a monument in the center of the town with letters carved in stone (here we go again).

Here is a fairly early historians take:

"An even earlier historian, John Allan Wyeth, considered the matter of the Klan carefully before writing his biography of Forrest in 1899. Wyeth concluded that Forrest was not intimately involved in the Klan for a very simple reason: he was too obvious a candidate for the position of leader. Forrest felt it was inevitable that suspicion would focus on the Klan as it began to make an effective resistance to the policies of Reconstruction. Of all the men in the South who might be thought to be involved in the organization he knew he would be the first to be suspected of being its leader. Forrest was too good a strategist to occupy such an obvious position. Forrest readily admitted knowledge of the Klan but denied any personal involvement.[3] " 

They go into extreme detail on the motives of authors and sources of the day. It is quite interesting.  However the smoking gun is this:

All the sources cited ignore the fact that there is another person who it is claimed ,held the post of Grand Wizard of the Klan. In an unpublished manuscript Mrs. George W. Gordon claims that her husband was supreme head of the Reconstruction-era Klan. General George W. Gordon was from Pulaski, he was often identified with the Klan and later personally claimed to have been involved with the group. His business affairs caused him to travel extensively in Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi following the war and some of his Klan regalia is in the possession of the Tennessee State Museum.[7]

Here is how he descibes the modern day sources:

"No documentation, but an authoritative statement may still be made, says Horn.! This is not the rules of historical evidence learned in any graduate course on historiography; this is not the way history is supposed to be written. When the only "evidence" is folk belief and two statements made by old men at a time when it was to their own interest to say what they did no "authoritative" statement can be made and still be called history.

Brian Wills and Stanley Horn's books, like that of Wade, are properly called "secondary sources" by historians; that is, they are books written by people who were not present at the events they are describing, they are basing their description and analysis of the historical events on what other people have said. Clearly, most history books are "secondary sources." Good history, well-written secondary sources, use "primary sources" as the basis of their description and conclusion. A "primary source" is something written at the time an event happened. A "primary source" may be written by an eye-witness or by a person who was alive at the time of the event. Wills, like all other Forrest biographers, does not cite a single primary source to document that Forrest was a member of or the head of the Klan. The closest any biographer can come to a primary source connecting Forrest to the Klan is the appendix of the1909 book by John Morton and the 1930 article in the Confederate Veteran. The rest of the "evidence" connecting Forrest to the Klan is circumstantial."

Either way my only goal here is not to convince everyone but to show that there is reasonable doubt of this association. Again this is theory! That is not enough to dishonor this man to make some unstudied and manipulated people unhappy. It is rather interesting because Forrest was being used by BOTH SIDES. He still is. This is precisely why he is such a teachable icon. If everyone wants to use him why do we not use him to teach children too.

I want to thank you Rbirds for making me delve deeper into this. I was getting worn down by antics and if Ock hadn't showed up I would probably have dropped from this site by now. But now we have intellectual discourse again. It is good to see.

Here is what they were saying in Canada:


http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/48023

Quote from: stephendare on November 26, 2013, 08:25:43 AM
So Forrest wasnt just a terrorist, he was also a liar.  Awesome.

And I think if we discount the report and investigation, the contemporary accounts, the story of fellow Klansmen, the statements of the modern day Klan, and the testimony of victims, then you have to apply the same standards to any other part of this sad and rather revolting biography.

For example, would Sgarey's claims of 'heroism' or 'brilliant military' or 'valor' stand up to the same kind of standard of proof?

And for that matter, is there a signed document from the Mayor of Jacksonville, or the City Council, or any other Board of Trade that shows that Jacksonville was a part of the Confederacy?  Would SGarey's claims survive the kind of proof that he demands be presented solely in this one detail of a life and narrative that he asks we take on faith and as a 'base story'?

So we're attempting to preserve the racially motivated naming of an originally illegal all-white school in honor of a guy who had nothing to do with Jax, had KKK (Pale Faces, whatever) affiliations, and who danced his way around providing direct answers under oath? What a hero for Jax.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 26, 2013, 09:27:31 AM
The governments were susceptible. The local political offices had been placed there by the Federal Government.  The only thing I could imagine would be close to comparison would be if we killed half the males in the town and then freed everyone in prison.  It sounds like utter chaos.  Forrest says himself, "There was very little law in those times."

Seriously?  Who exactly were the freed prisoners that Forrest and his buddies needed to provide law to....

Quote from: stephendare on November 26, 2013, 08:25:43 AM
So Forrest wasnt just a terrorist, he was also a liar.  Awesome.

And I think if we discount the report and investigation, the contemporary accounts, the story of fellow Klansmen, the statements of the modern day Klan, and the testimony of victims, then you have to apply the same standards to any other part of this sad and rather revolting biography.

For example, would Sgarey's claims of 'heroism' or 'brilliant military' or 'valor' stand up to the same kind of standard of proof?

And for that matter, is there a signed document from the Mayor of Jacksonville, or the City Council, or any other Board of Trade that shows that Jacksonville was a part of the Confederacy?  Would SGarey's claims survive the kind of proof that he demands be presented solely in this one detail of a life and narrative that he asks we take on faith and as a 'base story'?

Stephen, he would likely be tried and convicted as a war criminal in today's world.  He certainly would not be seen as anything close to a hero.

We do not have that smoking gun document directly linking NBF to Klan leadership.  We do have a primary source (the joint committee report) which strongly suggests NBF was indeed in charge and we have a letter described by its recipient as one written by a charter KKK member who unequivocally states Forrest was the Klan leader. Plus various Klan members claiming in print that Forrest was their leader.

In the absence of that smoking gun these other documents present a strong circumstantial case of the link between Forrest and the Klan. If you want to doubt the link then certainly you should do so. But just looking at what evidence there is of the link you can put together a pretty coherent case that NBF was indeed the head of the Klan during a period when this terrorist  organization committed some truly awful acts of murder and mayhem.

I think this discussion presents a pretty complete image of NBF, by the way, of a man who succeeded as a purveyor of forced labor before the war and an aggressive and successful soldier during the war.  But his habits did not serve him well in a postbellum American society.  He has remained a flashpoint since Shelby Foote talked him up in Ken Burns' "Civil War" series and we have just discussed our way through the legacy of Foote's advocacy of Forrest. Thirty pages of discussion and we never even broached the Fort Pillow controversy - not that I'm inviting a discussion of that slaughter of African-American Union soldiers.

In any case he is hardly a role model and probably doesn't deserve a school to remain in his name.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2013, 09:37:54 AM

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 26, 2013, 09:27:31 AM
The governments were susceptible. The local political offices had been placed there by the Federal Government.  The only thing I could imagine would be close to comparison would be if we killed half the males in the town and then freed everyone in prison.  It sounds like utter chaos.  Forrest says himself, "There was very little law in those times."

Seriously?  Who exactly were the freed prisoners that Forrest and his buddies needed to provide law to....

Sgarey, you're comparing freeing slaves to releasing prison inmates? Holy shit man, that's a new low.

Quote from: Tacachale on November 26, 2013, 10:43:23 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2013, 09:37:54 AM

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 26, 2013, 09:27:31 AM
The governments were susceptible. The local political offices had been placed there by the Federal Government.  The only thing I could imagine would be close to comparison would be if we killed half the males in the town and then freed everyone in prison.  It sounds like utter chaos.  Forrest says himself, "There was very little law in those times."

Seriously?  Who exactly were the freed prisoners that Forrest and his buddies needed to provide law to....

Sgarey, you're comparing freeing slaves to releasing prison inmates? Holy shit man, that's a new low.

Unfortunately it is not as low as he will go either I would imagine.  Sad, really sad.

One thing that isn't debatable is that the guy was a white supremacist and a member of the Pale Faces. In the quotes above, he says this himself.

QuoteOn Independence Day 1868, Wesley Alexander banged his drum at the head of a column of colored schoolchildren. He was leading a procession of freedpeople from Columbia, Middle Tennessee, to a grand picnic on the outskirts of the city. Alexander, a Union veteran, surely was aware of the dangers inherent in so bold a demonstration of black civil rights and Yankee loyalty. Middle Tennessee was a region where Confederate sentiment remained strong and where blacks had been terrorized by white gangs loosely styled after the Ku Klux Klan of neighboring Pulaski. Columbia, in fact, had spawned its own white supremacist fraternity, the Order of Pale Faces, which since January 1868 had been chastising freedpeople and white Unionists in a campaign of terror aimed at ending Republican rule.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/cwh/summary/v051/51.1harcourt.html

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2013, 10:49:39 AM
One thing that isn't debatable is that the guy was a white supremacist and a member of the Pale Faces. In the quotes above, he says this himself.

QuoteOn Independence Day 1868, Wesley Alexander banged his drum at the head of a column of colored schoolchildren. He was leading a procession of freedpeople from Columbia, Middle Tennessee, to a grand picnic on the outskirts of the city. Alexander, a Union veteran, surely was aware of the dangers inherent in so bold a demonstration of black civil rights and Yankee loyalty. Middle Tennessee was a region where Confederate sentiment remained strong and where blacks had been terrorized by white gangs loosely styled after the Ku Klux Klan of neighboring Pulaski. Columbia, in fact, had spawned its own white supremacist fraternity, the Order of Pale Faces, which since January 1868 had been chastising freedpeople and white Unionists in a campaign of terror aimed at ending Republican rule.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/cwh/summary/v051/51.1harcourt.html

Isn't the Pale Faces just another name for the KKK?  Doesn't matter really.  They were themselves terrorists according to documents.

Doesn't matter one bit to me.  Many equate them as the same since the general reasoning for the group's existence was the exact same thing.  I think it's just an argument over semantics in this thread.  In any event, whatever the name we want to call it, the guy was still a white supremacist. No doubt, he was seen as a leader to a certain segment of the population as Sgarey suggest.  However, he was no better than Hilter to a large segment of the population during that era as well.

^And considering he has no ties to Jacksonville and the name was only chosen 94 years after the war, there's no compelling reason to keep it. Problem solved! Man that was easy, on to the next topic.

According to testimony offered to the 1871 Joint Congressional Committee investigating the activities of the Klan the Pale Faces and KKK were synonymous. NBF said he was a member of the Pale Faces. 

Superintendent Vitti suggested that the name should be changed if the school stakeholders wished to . At least the, he said,  he wouldn't have to keep explaining the controversy whenever anyone asked where he was from.

Quote from: rbirds on November 26, 2013, 11:22:56 AM
According to testimony offered to the 1871 Joint Congressional Committee investigating the activities of the Klan the Pale Faces and KKK were synonymous. NBF said he was a member of the Pale Faces. 

Superintendent Vitti suggested that the name should be changed if the school stakeholders wished to . At least the, he said,  he wouldn't have to keep explaining the controversy whenever anyone asked where he was from.

Well there we have it, the KKK and Pale Faces are synonymous.  Vitti did say that he would support the name change should it come before him. The final decision is in the hands of the School Board, even if for some reason Vitti no longer supported the name change.  The board has the final say and as such I doubt that more than half of them would vote to change their view about changing the name considering that all voted to move the change issue forward.  Nothing has surfaced to make the argument to change the name anything more than a shallow attempt to hold onto a vestige of "racism" via the name of Nathan B. Forrest in a city that man had no connection to.  I came across one online petition that was signed by some of the very old alumni of Nathan B. Forrest who only opposed the name change because that was what the school was called when they went there.  I doubt very seriously that many if not most of them have any idea who Forrest really was and that some have recently been deceived into thinking he was a good guy through the arguments of fanatics, fear mongers and faux websites with false and misleading information.  One threatened to sue because his class ring said Forrest high.  lol  Seriously, this is the depth of some of these concerns and all of them baseless because a name change now does not alter the fact that the school was Nathan B. Forrest when those people attended it.  Only future alum will be impacted and they are being educated to the truth about Forrest, his KKK/Pale Face terrorist associations, the massacre at Ft. Pillow, his keeping of slaves and the fact that he has no historical connection to Jacksonville.  Those are the facts and even the emotional attachment some have to the name is not a big enough argument to keep it.  Jacksonville is "not" a place that will go forward telling the world that we honor the racists or terrorists of history. 

And here I thought we were done with all that nonsense.

Spin...spin...spin.

I proved it was theory. It is not provable. You can all retract all your misplaced aggression now.

Are you saying Forrest was lying under oath about his affiliation with a white supremacy group?

Quote from: rbirds on November 26, 2013, 03:39:35 AM
Forrest evades and wheedles in his testimony before Congress, picking his way around direct questions about his Klan associations. After a lengthy examination of what Forrest had testified to know in an earlier interview, the committee cited several other witnesses who said the Ku-Kluxers sometimes were called "Pale Faces".  Specifically, from page 9 of the report, "Some call them Pale Faces, some call them Ku-Klux; I believe they were under two names."

Then the report recounts Forrest's testimony where he admits belonging to the Pale Faces [pp. 9-10]. The questions come from the committee, answers are from Forrest:

Question:Did you hear of the Knights of the White Camelia there [in Louisiana. The White Camelia order was another white supremacist group similar and sometimes aligned with the KKK].
Answer: Yes, they were reported to be there.
Q: Were you ever a member of that order?
A: I was.
Q: You were a member of the Knights of the White Camelia?
A: No sir; I never was a member of the Knights of the White Camelia.
Q: What order was it that you were a member of?
A: An order they called the Pale Faces - a different order from that.
Q: Where was that organized?
A: I do not know.
Q: Where did you join it?
A: In Memphis.
Q: When?
A: It was in 1867; but that was a different order from this.
Q: What was that?
A: Something like Odd Fellowship, Masonry-orders of that sort-for the purpose of protecting the weak and defenseless, &c.
Q: Something on the same principles that the Ku-Klux afterward had.
A: Something similar to that, only it was a different order.... [he then describes a mission identical to the Klan's mission]

Here we see Forrest admitting membership in the Pale Faces. We've seen in other committee testimony that the organization "Pale Faces" is another name for the Ku Klux Klan. Has Forrest just admitted membership in the Klan? No but....

Forrest's testimony before the "Joint Select Committee to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs of the Late Insurrectionary States" in 1871. The report can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&q=forrest#v=onepage&q&f=false.

And all the way from Seattle this article today....This is such great coverage for Jacksonville.   ::)

http://seattlemedium.com/time-for-jacksonville-to-sever-ties-to-ku-klux-klans-first-grand-wizard/

QuoteTime For Jacksonville To Sever Ties To Ku Klux Klan's First Grand Wizard
Posted on Nov 26 2013 - 9:34am by Seattle Medium


Jacksonville Public Schools Ku Klux Klan Nathan B. Forrest
Nathan B. Forrest

Nathan B. Forrest

By Opio Sokoni, MCSJ, JD

Special To The Medium

The City of Jacksonville, Florida was once called the bold new city of the South. It was a booming winter film capital and boasted a vibrant African-American community. On May 17, 1954, the U.S. Supreme Court held the country will no longer have separate educational facilities because they are inherently unequal. It said that de jure racial segregation violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution. The Warren Court's decision was unanimous (9 – 0).

After the Brown v. Board of Education decision, a mean shadow of racial enmity engulfed Jacksonville. By 1959, the Daughters of the Confederacy, out of spite, lobbied to change the name of Valhalla High School to honor the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan – Nathan B. Forrest.

Over the years, there had been unsuccessful attempts to rid the city of this name. Some tried to educate the public about other immoral expects of Forrest's life. For instance, he was the top ranking soldier on the scene during what has been called the most heinous acts of brutality during the U.S. Civil War. Nathan B. Forrest allowed his men to massacre soldiers at Fort Pillow that had surrendered. Hundreds of mostly African American troops would die, in addition to women and children. Ulysses S. Grant wrote in his memoirs of the incident that, "The river was dyed with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards."

Before the war, Forrest had made a fortune selling human beings into slavery and employed slave catchers. After the war, he was responsible for being among the first to use Black prisoners to work on his vast property – the beginning of the chain gang.

Fast forward to 2013 and Jacksonville has come as far as it has ever before in changing the name. The high school which carries Forrest's name now has a majority of African Americans among its student body. It is also in the district of a Black school board member (Constance Hall) who recently called for a special vote to initiate a name change procedure. She has support from the new Superintendent Nikolai Vitti who has been embarrassed by having to address the issue while speaking abroad. The entire school board voted in favor of the name change procedure. After scheduled votes by alumni, students and faculty the Superintendent will make his recommendation to the board.

The Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) has joined with the Jacksonville Progressive Coalition, the NAACP, Occupy Jacksonville, the Florida New Majority, LULAC, Change.org, Duval Progressives and more. We plan to appeal to the new spirit of the city. The coalition has included speeches and surveys, but now will involve street actions to educate the community and show movement in support of finally changing the name.

Imagine a high school in the city's heavily Jewish Mandarin neighborhood named after Hitler, or an elementary school in New York City honoring Osama Bin Laden? Many of us feel no different having a school in the city named after Forrest.

After all, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was martyred in the same state where Nathan B. Forrest made his mark – Tennessee. There is where Forrest's climate of hate flourished; before, during and after the Civil War. His ghost has infected that state and our city well after his death in 1877. Forrest has no connection to Jacksonville and must now be totally severed. Those who support his name staying on the school will thank us later. We are making this a city where their children and their grandchildren's grandchildren can co-exist as brothers and sisters with all races. Those who love this southern town are poised to move it in the right direction – forward.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2013, 02:07:21 PM
Are you saying Forrest was lying under oath about his affiliation with a white supremacy group?

Quote from: rbirds on November 26, 2013, 03:39:35 AM
Forrest evades and wheedles in his testimony before Congress, picking his way around direct questions about his Klan associations. After a lengthy examination of what Forrest had testified to know in an earlier interview, the committee cited several other witnesses who said the Ku-Kluxers sometimes were called "Pale Faces".  Specifically, from page 9 of the report, "Some call them Pale Faces, some call them Ku-Klux; I believe they were under two names."

Then the report recounts Forrest's testimony where he admits belonging to the Pale Faces [pp. 9-10]. The questions come from the committee, answers are from Forrest:

Question:Did you hear of the Knights of the White Camelia there [in Louisiana. The White Camelia order was another white supremacist group similar and sometimes aligned with the KKK].
Answer: Yes, they were reported to be there.
Q: Were you ever a member of that order?
A: I was.
Q: You were a member of the Knights of the White Camelia?
A: No sir; I never was a member of the Knights of the White Camelia.
Q: What order was it that you were a member of?
A: An order they called the Pale Faces - a different order from that.
Q: Where was that organized?
A: I do not know.
Q: Where did you join it?
A: In Memphis.
Q: When?
A: It was in 1867; but that was a different order from this.
Q: What was that?
A: Something like Odd Fellowship, Masonry-orders of that sort-for the purpose of protecting the weak and defenseless, &c.
Q: Something on the same principles that the Ku-Klux afterward had.
A: Something similar to that, only it was a different order.... [he then describes a mission identical to the Klan's mission]

Here we see Forrest admitting membership in the Pale Faces. We've seen in other committee testimony that the organization "Pale Faces" is another name for the Ku Klux Klan. Has Forrest just admitted membership in the Klan? No but....

Forrest's testimony before the "Joint Select Committee to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs of the Late Insurrectionary States" in 1871. The report can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&q=forrest#v=onepage&q&f=false.

Ennis, this person does not know what he is saying nor does he care.  I stand by what I said earlier in the thread.  This is a game in which he attacks everyone while twisting any comment to serve his agenda which is fear based and one about control and bigotry. This is no longer about Nathan B. Forrest, but him and his inner dialog and playing out the fantasy that he is smarter and more informed than everyone here. No one who reads his drivel takes him seriously save himself.  He foolishly thinks that by calling everyone here intolerant, animals and much worse that he can divert everyone from the truth which is we have been listening to and debating a bigot and a fanatic.

It's no secret the rest of the country views us as backwards, which does impact us economically. It's stuff like this that reinforces that belief.

QuoteImagine a high school in the city's heavily Jewish Mandarin neighborhood named after Hitler, or an elementary school in New York City honoring Osama Bin Laden? Many of us feel no different having a school in the city named after Forrest.

Ditto.

There is another in the game as well, a Jon Sackerson, Forrest supporter and someone who internet research shows comes up under the self proclaimed nomer....Jon.Sackerson.being a smart ass at Chamblin's Book Mine.  Below find his letter to the editor of T.U.  What's more telling of the agenda is that he states he was "tutoring" a student. One tutors to help kids with problems, not to exploit the fact that they share with the tutor that math for them is difficult without a calculator.   ::)


http://jacksonville.com/opinion/premium-opinion/2013-10-22/story/letters-keep-forrest-high-school-name-reader-says

QuoteRecently I was tutoring a Forrest High School student in algebra and asked her to take two-thirds of 75. Her response was she couldn't do it without her calculator.

My point is that there are far more pressing problems at that school and systemwide than the name of the school.

The editorial board of this paper would have you believe that changing the name would somehow be a solution to some social evil inflicted to retard or stop the educational progress of the students who attend Forrest.

The absolute truth is that the 57 percent minority black students who attend Forrest probably had no idea who Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest was or what he allegedly did. They are kids. They could not care less.

That is until some race hustler from up North moved here and taught them to see the difference.

My point is that racism, prejudice and bias are all learned behaviors taught by adults. If the adults stayed out of it, the children who attend Forrest High School could get a quality education.

If we take the advice of the Times-Union editorial board, then the next step would naturally be to change the name of Andrew Jackson High School.

Jackson, hero of the Battle of New Orleans, actually fought the battle months after the war was over. He was responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent British and Scottish soldiers. When he was president, he was responsible for the infamous "Trail of Tears," the forced removal of American Indians from east of the Appalachians to barren wasteland in the Oklahoma territory.

This resulted in the death of thousands of innocent Native American men, women and children.

Just like Forrest, Jackson had no direct connection with the school or the city of Jacksonville. That calls into question the name of the city of Jacksonville.

We need to have a Native American activist move to town and start a nationwide Internet petition so that the newspaper can get on board and right this terrible wrong.

Once the name is changed, the Jags will win the Super Bowl. Mayor Alvin Brown will submit a balanced budget. Property taxes will decline. The homeless will find homes, and Hemming Plaza will become a showplace.

This school superintendent has many more problems than renaming a school. If he doesn't see this, then let's start the nationwide search now for someone who gets it.

Jon Sackerson, Jacksonville

Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2013, 02:27:21 PM
It's not secret the rest of the country views us as backwards, which does impact us economically. It's stuff like this that reinforces that belief.

QuoteImagine a high school in the city's heavily Jewish Mandarin neighborhood named after Hitler, or an elementary school in New York City honoring Osama Bin Laden? Many of us feel no different having a school in the city named after Forrest.

Ditto.

It does impact us horribly Ennis and it is still impacting us as we see historic Black neighborhoods demolished and their history forgotten while some clowns scream about southern history being lost.  News Flash!!!! Local Black history "is" Southern history which is why I fought so hard to save Brewster Hospital, the first Black hospital in the entire south east from demolition.  It survived the great fire of 1901 but nearly was destroyed by apathy and the agenda to erase the Harlem of the South, which we all know is LaVilla.

Since we are all interested in facts.  Here is probably the best source.  Facinating reading though I have not been through it all.  What is very clear is the former confederate states were a mess following the war.  Looks to me like there were numerous, "unions", "Leagues", "Clans", etc that filled the power vacumn... who were not from the north.  We were lucky as a country to survive...

http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&source=gbs_navlinks_s



(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA6&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3oaL993HwRuY8wY47S2hHM7obwcg&ci=76%2C245%2C872%2C1282&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA6&ci=76%2C245%2C872%2C1282&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA7&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0ao9hRa2H5XIhDUe_eWk18HIOpxg&ci=55%2C47%2C864%2C1479&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA7&ci=55%2C47%2C864%2C1479&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA8&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3obk3eReML1GFq0ydc9937yyCloA&ci=80%2C57%2C854%2C1451&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA8&ci=80%2C57%2C854%2C1451&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA9&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1kV3SIClRo4JESocdzDhejG80iCg&ci=57%2C70%2C857%2C1450&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA9&ci=57%2C70%2C857%2C1450&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA10&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U15nqzEbNdErq5nXMLBZszuUExPrA&ci=88%2C58%2C851%2C1470&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA10&ci=88%2C58%2C851%2C1470&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA11&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3ciMJyp9mldqSu5CrLm3OgjggR0w&ci=53%2C69%2C845%2C1451&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA11&ci=53%2C69%2C845%2C1451&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA12&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2tFAOzsXNExF0t_Uk_Ck12NNVZYg&ci=105%2C67%2C850%2C1463&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA12&ci=105%2C67%2C850%2C1463&source=bookclip)

(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA13&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3HkJlMG-y9STC3NNvscIZcrQ-7jg&ci=54%2C74%2C873%2C1461&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA13&ci=54%2C74%2C873%2C1461&source=bookclip)

Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

Lol, the info from a source you introduced into the discussion is now nonsense. I understand, it's difficult to paint this guy as a boy scout that was loved and admired by every Tom, Dick and Harry south of the Mason Dixon. Nevertheless, it's okay to accept that NBF was a white supremacist who was no better than Hitler to those he and his buddies terrorized in Tennessee.  You'll be able to sleep better at night when the day comes that his name is stripped from that school.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 26, 2013, 03:46:33 PM
Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

I do not have a dog in this fig... err... discussion and there is no smear.  The book is...

Report of the Joint Select Committee Appointed to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States: So Far as Regards the Execution of the Laws, and the Safety of the Lives and Property of the Citizens of the United States and Testimony Taken, Volume 1

It was commissioned by the US Congress to ...
(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2vKD1_1kDa6Jmw5JHjSkSlNMAXSA&ci=61%2C482%2C822%2C171&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA1&ci=61%2C482%2C822%2C171&source=bookclip)

This report contains many items... only one small part of it is regarding the KKK and Forrests possible involvement.  It is 632 pages long... a treasure trove of data regarding the post war south...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 26, 2013, 04:00:50 PM

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 26, 2013, 03:46:33 PM
Let me read all this nonsense later tonight....then you guys can scramble again to turn things to fit the witch hunt.

You guys are so funny. Ican only imagine what I could do if several people were smearing and researching with me.

I do not have a dog in this fig... err... discussion and there is no smear.  The book is...

Report of the Joint Select Committee Appointed to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States: So Far as Regards the Execution of the Laws, and the Safety of the Lives and Property of the Citizens of the United States and Testimony Taken, Volume 1

It was commissioned by the US Congress to ...
(http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2vKD1_1kDa6Jmw5JHjSkSlNMAXSA&ci=61%2C482%2C822%2C171&edge=0) (http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&vq=forrest&pg=PA1&ci=61%2C482%2C822%2C171&source=bookclip)

This report contains many items... only one small part of it is regarding the KKK and Forrests possible involvement.  It is 632 pages long... a treasure trove of data regarding the post war south...

Ah Bridge Troll you have entered into a world where information is "smear" even if that source of information was first offered by the person now calling it "smear".  Bizarre isn't it?  lol

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.


So I go back to the link I posted as a response to you goons. This passage explains the committee:

"During the summer of 1871 Forrest was summoned to Washington, D.C., to testify before a congressional committee which was investigating the activities of the Klan. The testimony took place on June 27. By 1871 Tennessee had been under the control of conservative Democrats for two years and several other Southern states had also ended the rule of Radical Republicans. A bill passed by congress had made membership in the Klan a crime and this law had been firmly enforced in those states where Radical rule remained in place. This Federal intervention brought the Klan to its knees so that it was no longer an effective force by 1872.[18] Thus, when Forrest appeared before the Congressional committee he had to be very careful in answering their questions. Popular opinion identified him with the Klan, even made him its leader, and although no legal evidence could be brought as proof against him, Forrest knew that the committee would be quite willing to place the worst possible interpretation on anything he said.

During his testimony Forrest gave answers which revealed he knew things about the Klan which would be knowledge available only to insiders. He also refused to answer some questions, and dodged some others. On the basis of this performance some historians assume that Forrest was an insider, that he was the Grand Wizard of the Klan. Although stated as facts these are merely assumptions and assertions. It is also possible that Forrest knew men who were active in the Klan and that he got his information from them without himself being personally involved. It is also asserted that Forrest could not have helped bring an end to the Klan unless he was a member, and probably the head, of the Klan. Such assertions ignore the influence Forrest had on many former Confederates; many men admired Forrest and would have been willing to follow his advice even if he was not the titular head of the organization."

One has to wonder, if this committee did not find him guilty then what the heck are you guys talking about this anymore? I dug in and I tore your little smear logic apart.  You guys are building a case to lynch a man post mortem with nothing more than heresay. If the "pale faces" were the Klan then DONT YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE ARRESTED FORREST!

He certainly DID NOT believe the Pale Faces were the Klan. You must remember this man denied them. He denied being in the Klan but everyone wanted him to be in it; Both sides. Even today you guys drool over the concept.

He even describes the differences of the "pale faces" and the other groups in his testimony. He said he only visited 2 times by invitation in Memphis. He indicated they had completely different customs etc.

What everyone has failed to do in this thread is look at "why" these groups were created. This transcript explains that very well. It explains the chaos going on in those days. You had 2 armies that had just witnessed the bloodiest war every fought turned loose, you have 1/7th of the southern population newly freedmen, the state governments were erased (for the 14th amendment to pass) and turned into territories. It was pure chaos. It was mob rule. 

There were the beginnings of Race war going on at the time. They talk about it in the committee. Louisiana, Arkansas, etc. 

Most of these organizations at the time were no more than vigilante groups trying to defend their women, children and property from harm. 

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a leader with a level head. He was the only person on both sides of the war to rise through the ranks from Private to General. That says something guys. He is worthy of a school name. No trumped up spin masters can say otherwise without lying.

Bridgetroll,

I did not mean to say your information was non-sense.  It just happened that I posted right after you. Read your source and learn about what it really was like in the South in the post war time.  It was not pretty.  The testimony of Nathan Bedford Forrest at the committee is very revealing. I shutter to think how many women were raped and how many families property stolen and redistributed.

The nonsense I spoke of comes from Lakelander, Dare, and the crazy delusional smearcat lady. Nothing I post will convince them that what they propose as fact is either dead wrong or theory.

I knew after I posted the BEST SOURCE for winning this discussion that they would try to turn and spin. They certainly do struggle when the facts presented do not fit their theory.

QuoteRead your source and learn about what it really was like in the South in the post war time.  It was not pretty.  The testimony of Nathan Bedford Forrest at the committee is very revealing. I shutter to think how many women were raped and how many families property stolen and redistributed.

Being a descendant of slaves on both sides of my family, you've accurately described what my ancestors had to go through because of guys like NBF. Life wasn't pretty before the war or after it.  Even around the time Jax was still opening illegal all white schools, my parent's generation still speaks of the fears they had and injustices encountered when passing through rural areas of the South that where Jim Crow was alive and well.

I also shutter to think how many women and men were raped, killed and families split because they were not viewed as equals. Many here have spoken of having distant relatives that fought with guys like Forrest. Well I'm from a segment of the South where some of my relatives were lynched because of the color of their skin and raped by their plantation owners. Despite all of this, local history shows many African-Americans flocked to Jacksonville after the war because of opportunity that wasn't available in places like NBF's neck of the woods. 

QuoteThe nonsense I spoke of comes from Lakelander, Dare, and the crazy delusional smearcat lady. Nothing I post will convince them that what they propose as fact is either dead wrong or theory.

You've posted nothing more than pure opinion and have completely ignored or dismissed anything that doesn't fit your perspective for more than 30 pages now. You've attempted to throw out sources you've introduced to the conversation once they are used to prove the opposite of your opinion. You've equated the freeing of slaves as letting prisoners loose and a reason for why white supremacy groups led by people like NBF were needed. Now you're calling people names in some strange effort to make a self admitted white supremacist (according to a source you introduced) an honorable person to a community where half the population viewed (and still does) him as a terrorist. 

However, you can't change history by erasing the blood on NBF's hands, ignoring racially motivated acts by Jax officials in 1959, and making links between NBF and Jax where they don't exist. Thus, most of the +20k reading this can see right through all of your smoke and mirrors.

In short, your position is structurally as sound as jello.  In fact, you've probably converted a few people who had no dog in the fight into the name change camp. Congrats.

QuoteI knew after I posted the BEST SOURCE for winning this discussion that they would try to turn and spin. They certainly do struggle when the facts presented do not fit their theory.

I'm getting ready to spend some time with family out of town but there's one fact you can't spin or ignore. The process of changing the name is in the works. No amount of lies to cover up NBF's past is going to change that.

Looks to me like the only spin in this thread is coming from you, sgarey.  You have offered nothing persuasive - just a "change is bad, don't let the minorities impose their will on us" argument.  As if there is an "us" and a "them" in the issue.  But then that's a common thread in your posts.  Us (whites, southerners) and Them (blacks, yankees).  At this point in time it seems to me that there is just "us" - Jaxons.  Through the grace of God, the ingenuity of the Wright brothers, and the construction of the interstate system, quite a few non-southerners have made their way to our little patch of paradise and now call it home.  So, much like the great American melting pot of immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the south (and especially Florida) is now a diverse mix of people from all of this country and others.  There's no going back.  Regional identities are fading away and we are becoming a more homogeneous America.  You can try to stand in the path of progress and hold on to the distant past, but you will just get run over. 

Your arguments strike me as intolerant and best and racist at worst.  Lump me in with thelakelander, stephendare and CheshireCat.

Changing the name is good for Jacksonville. It is one more step away from racism.

I do not see how digging into the chaos that persisted historically after the Civil war is "Racist."  I think we are starting the drift to Al Sharpton politics. Its really silly.

I have not "attempted to throw out sources I introduced."  You just want to make it out that way. Every source I have provided (your welcome BTW) is good.  I would say that some of the sources that have been provided for renaming are the ones that take quite a bit of liberty when it comes to telling the story of history. They have been refuted.

I did not equate the slaves being freed to letting out prisoners. I equated the chaos that ensued after the war to a general displacement of a lot of people  (ex-slaves, ex-soldiers, carpet baggers, etc.) You immediately read into this looking for a racial attack because you are against the ropes at this point. 

Calling Forrest a white supremacist is extremely obtuse. If Forrest was one then so was pretty much everyone in history.  The man sought peace and harmony after the war.  He spoke about it in his testimony, in speeches, everywhere. BUT THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU!  He also hired Black Americans. He helped rebuild a country and a culture that was torn apart. All you want to say is he was in some club that you know very little about and that he visited only TWO times. 

The largest part of this argument is that regardless of ALL THE WORK I have done to refute your theoretical reasons for renaming that the real reason we should not rename this school is that it is literally racists to do so. It goes against everything we have been taught by the Civil Rights movement. IT IS ONE GROUP FEEDING OFF ANOTHER.  It is wrong.

All your points have been invalidated. He was not the founder of the KKK. There is not even a membership in the club.  There is no proof of a middle finger theory. He was NOT a War criminal. There is no proof he was even a racist in fact he was very progressive for his time.  Finally there is certainly no proof whatsoever that Jacksonville is not part of the south.  You guys should eat your hat because it has been handed to you. Need salt? Whats the next topic...CASE CLOSED.

Finally I would suggest that the renamers change tactics. Go back to being true historians. Return to what makes you dignified and respected. Treat all history equally.  It is admirable to promote Black history but if you only support one kind over another then that starts to look very racist.  I personally enjoy all types of cultural history and currently support them all. 

People of all kinds deserve to be represented in the school names that are currently present. That includes whoever relates to Forrest.

He has been tried here and he is not guilty. He was more strongly tried several times for all the things you have come after him for and he was not convicted.  Others were convicted. 

Its time to man up and put aside "your personal desires" and respect people who may not be like you. That is the high road. It is the right thing to do and the path to unity and peace. Forrest did that for you. Its the least you can do for him.

There seems to be plenty of spin from both sides.  Most of the spin is simply to make ones case... facts are presented... but not really in context, labels are affixed, names are called.  What this discussion has shown me... is that this particular period of US history is a bit... murky.

There are plenty here who ascribe to the "history is written by the victors" theory and have used that argument in other discussions here.  What is extremely clear... is the period shortly after the war was a chaotic and dangerous period... for everyone... the southern white "losers" of the war, the recently freed black slaves, the women and children left without fathers, the union soldiers trying to keep order, even the carpetbaggers.  The economy was destroyed by the war... and the South's main source of labor was now free and demanding a wage for work... or gone.

Small towns, counties formed local militias... in the testimony we see the names of a few of them... Ku Klux, Pale faces, Knights of the White Camilia... I imagine there were scores of such organizations.  As a military hero and southern leader and former general... Forrest would at least have knowledge of these groups, likely have contact with them, and quite possibly been a member.  If history is written by the victors then the victors seemed to have done there best to attempt to discredit Forrest.  He was likely deemed a threat by the victors.  Was he the leader of the KKK?  I'm not sure there is enough proof... but for the sake of this discussion (renaming a school)... I'm not sure it matters very much.

We know he WAS a slave holder.  We know he bought and sold humans before the war.  Do these actions disqualify Forrest for school naming?  It certainly does not with regards to Washington and Jefferson.  Another instance of "the victors writing the history"?

Fort Pillow?  Another instance of the victor writing the history.  There is no doubt about the carnage that occurred... this was a brutal war... the fort refused surrender terms... the fort was attacked and the soldiers within were slaughtered.  The North had plenty opportunity to arrest, try, and hang Forrest after the war... yet... did not.

I found this NY Times obituary for Forrest...   http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html

My conclusions... I lack the perspective that Lakelander and others have.  For me... there is enough evidence for me to assume Forrest had some alliance with either the KKK or similar type groups.  There is evidence of massacre at Fort Pillow... but I do not give much weight to this episode.  So this leaves me with what I do know... and what I am sure of.  Forrest was a slave owner and trader.  He was clearly a racist simply using his slave trading as an example.  His actions and words late in life indicate a change in these attitudes.  He was viewed with suspicion by northern authorities immediately following the war.

While I might understand the possible "angst" of NBF HS grads at the possibility of a name change... in the big scheme of things it really should not be a big deal to them.  They are still "NB Forrest Grads"... it says so on your diploma.  The name is an issue for half of our population... it is time for it to go.  Let the new student body decide on a name and mascot etc and lets move on.

^In addition, I think it's a stretch for any of us to believe that all NBF students and grads feel the same way.  Judging from the links posted in this thread, there are NBF students and grads on both sides of the table as well.

Below are sgareys points...

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others. 

Based on the documentation provided in this 33 page thread, this is how I see it:

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1. Middle finger - theory and un-provable - What else do you call the opening of an all-white public school in Jacksonville, five years after Brown vs Board of Education? Forrest opening as an all white school in 1959 and Brown vs Board of Education in 1954 are not theory and un-provable. Those are historical facts.

For those of you who don't know, Forrest opened in 1959. Brown v. Board of Education was a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court declared state laws establishing separate public schools for black and white students unconstitutional in 1954. The decision overturned the Plessy v. Ferguson decision of 1896, which allowed state-sponsored segregation, insofar as it applied to public education. Handed down on May 17, 1954, the Warren Court's unanimous (9–0) decision stated that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." As a result, de jure racial segregation was ruled a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution. 

If this wasn't a middle finger to the Civil Rights push of that era, we are then suggesting that Jacksonville's leaders were not aware of the Supreme Court decision.  While they may have been racist, they were not dummies.


2. KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.

This is all white supremacy semantics.  Forrest admitted to be being a part of the Pale Faces in his testimony before the "Joint Select Committee to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs of the Late Insurrectionary States" in 1871.  This source was introduced into this discussion by Sgarey himself (thanks...see post 452) to prove that Forrest was not a member of the Knights of the White Camelia order in Louisiana.

The report can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&q=forrest#v=onepage&q&f=false.

Pale Faces was a Reconstruction-era white supremacist fraternal order founded in January 1868 in Columbia, Tennessee, which is just up the road from the KKK's birthplace in Pulaski.

This is like going back and forth on if a sofa or couch is the correct terminology. KKK, Pale Faces, White Camelia, etc. they all had the same mission to terrorize freedman, yankees, immigrants and others that didn't fit into their clique.


3. War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted

This isn't my fight. However, I'm not aware of there being trials for war crimes either.


4. Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time

See point 2. Frederick Douglass was a progressive of his time. Forrest, on the other hand, was a racist. He was a slave trader and owner before the Civil War and a member of the supremacy group Pale Faces after it. Progressive? Look at it this way.  I'm black.  What do you think would be Forrest's reaction if I slept with one of his female family members? Something tells me the description wouldn't include "progressive" as a characteristic.

5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

We all known NBF had no direct affiliation with Jacksonville. Labeling him a "southern" hero to lump Jax in it is like saying we should name something after Malcolm X because he was a nationwide hero to a select segment of the US population and Jax is clearly a part of the same country.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 27, 2013, 10:54:50 AM
Below are sgareys points...

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Sgarey123 in reply #485 argues that Forrest could not have been a klan member because the 1871 Joint Congressional Committee Report on the Condition of the Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States which interviewed Forrest "did not find him guilty" of belonging to the Klan.

The committee, which handled Forrest's denial of membership with some skepticism discussed the possibility of his membership but then cautioned the reader that the committee was not formed to discover whether Forrest was or was not a member but rather to investigate the operation of the Klan during the brief life of the 19th century version of the Klan. The committee did not find Forrest guilty of anything because his guilt or innocence was not part of the committee's charter. Thus there would not be any charge of culpability in Klan activities because such a charge was not in the committee's purview. The job of this committee was to investigate the atrocities perpetrated by the Klan.

This reality makes sgarey123's next conclusion, which he highlights in bold and caps, irrelevant, that if Forrest was indeed a Klan member "don't you think they would have arrested them!"  Well, no, since the committee had not authority to judge Forrest's guilt or innocence there was no basis to arrest him.

So the fact that Forrest was not arrested after his testimony before the Congressional committee is not a test of whether he was indeed a member of the Klan. It neither proves nor disproves anything.

Sgarey123 then goes on to justify where these racist, terrorist groups were organized.  According to sgarey123, emphasized in bold: "It was pure chaos. It was mob rule... Most of these organizations at the time were no more than vigilante groups trying to defend their women, children and property from harm."

He suggests the Congressional committee's report justifies the forming of these groups. Actually, the report firmly establishes that the most lawless groups included the Ku Klux Klan and other affiliated groups including the Pale Faces. Witnesses testifying before the committee confidently claimed that the Pale Faces was just another name for the Klan.

The committee cites a report from the Secretary of War describing Klan operations. "The precise objects of the organization cannot be readily explained," the report says, "but seem...to be to disarm, rob, and, in many cases, murder Union men and negroes and, as occasion may offer, murder United States officers and soldiers; also to intimidate every one who knows anything of the organization, but who will not join it." (p. 19) Another Army general observed that "armed bands, styling themselves Ku-Klux, &c, have practiced barbarous cruelties upon the freemen."  (pp. 20-21) The committee report's conclusion are the opposite of what sgarey123 claims.

These descriptions go on page after page after page. As shown in the committee report, it was the reactionary white supremacists who were a source for disorder rather than the others blamed for the necessity to create the Klan and others. In many parts of the South the Klan had become the de facto law, an invisible government state officials could not control.

Rbirds, I do not know where you came from but I certainly welcome your questions. Thank you for joining the discussion. I respect your intelligent contention and I will respond soon but it is Thanksgiving!

Quote from: Tacachale on November 27, 2013, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 27, 2013, 10:54:50 AM
Below are sgareys points...

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

Quote from: AmyLynne on November 28, 2013, 02:17:52 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 27, 2013, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 27, 2013, 10:54:50 AM
Below are sgareys points...

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

Yes they are all being renamed to make a few select people happy and the rest of us P!ssed off for eternity.

Happy Thanksgiving to sgarey123 and to everyone on this discussion board. I imagine even ole' NBF celebrated Thanksgiving.

sgarey, you are mistaken if you believe that only a "select few" want to see the name changed. And if changing a school name angers you for eternity, then you must be one incredibly passionate history buff. I sincerely hope your anger will not last. Letting go of that anger is as important for healing racial tensions as acknowledging the pain experienced by so many who are offended by the NBF name. We need both sides of the debate moving forward for progress.

IMO our society has taken on too much of a winner-loser mentality. We see it all the time in politics, particularly in DC. The mentality is my way or no way. We need to disagree, debate but then ultimately seek unity. I hope when this issue is resolved we will all find a way to bury the hatchet and move forward as a cohesive community, and not continue to fight the war for the next 150 years.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on November 28, 2013, 02:26:36 AM

Quote from: AmyLynne on November 28, 2013, 02:17:52 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on November 27, 2013, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 27, 2013, 10:54:50 AM
Below are sgareys points...

QuoteIn rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst (http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nathan+bedford+forrest%22+Hurst&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cDGWUuOWAZSvsAS-goDACQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Grand%20Wizard%22&f=false) finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

Yes they are all being renamed to make a few select people happy and the rest of us P!ssed off for eternity.

Once again Sgarey is wrong. There has never been such an effort for any of the other schools that has gained any traction. As I said in response to #4, Forrest is seen as more offensive than the others due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

NBF is seen as more offensive than others for a number of reasons, including the KKK and the Fort Pillow massacre. His personality was rough, to say the least. He was quick to feel insult and just as quickly offered insult in response. Often those responses were physical. He had little patience and was seen as impulsive outside of his wartime experience. He alienated other Memphis businessmen after the war and, as I had mentioned in an earlier post, was loathed by the black population in Memphis. All the barbers in postbellum Memphis were black and he avoided frequenting the same barbershop twice in a row to avoid any plans by these barbers to cut his throat.

NBF embodied values opposite of a Confederate leader we continue to revere: Robert E. Lee. Where Lee was patient and gracious, Forrest was impatient and rude. Where Lee was learned and sophisticated, Forrest was self-educated and rustic. Where Lee represented the noblest aspirations of the Confederacy, Forrest represented the slave-owning class of grasping capitalists, reminding all observers that at the bottom of all Confederate demands was the forced labor of enslaved Africans and their offspring.

It is this stark contrast between a gracious Southern gentleman and a swaggering backwoods provincial that makes NBF such a flashpoint.

I hesitated to respond. However I promised Rbirds that I would do so.

I do not know what is going to happen however I have a few things left to say.  The SOUTH is not anti-black. It never has been.  I quote the most famous abolitionist:

"Prejudice against color is stronger North than South"  Fredrick Douglas

Our Southern Culture is worth preservation.  We all  have the same customs after all....food....names....everything. I think the true locals still to this day feel that kindred spirit between folks of different color as long as we are local.

However this sort of thing has begun the un-rivaling of decades of loyalty. It has polarized and created distrust at a level that should NEVER have occurred. It is UNACCEPTABLE and has caused destruction in relationships that are centuries old.  You should all be ASHAMED of yourselves! 

Nathan Bedford Forrest is a good man. 

Read these links....you can not but stand in "AWe" of the guy....

Obit:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html

Here is what a guy in 2006 said about him:

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/122906/opl_7020282.shtml


In regards to his testimony....They would have totally arrested him if he was found to be in the KKK. There is no question about that....none.   If pressed I can dig up the lingo.
I truly hope that the school board and the superintendent do what is right and multicultural.  Removing his name would be a step backwards in Civil rights. It is wrong. Thank you.   

In other words, you can't question and prove the points that many have made, to be false. That's cool. It's a hard job trying to turn this guy into a saint that should be honored by all in Jacksonville, FL.

What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

^Merry Christmas, Sgarey123.  As I mentioned 30 something pages ago, this was bound to happen either sooner or later. What new names would you suggest for the school formerly named after the white supremacist?

And the true colors come out. Merry Christmas, y'all.

"JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A Florida school board has decided to end a decades-long controversy and rename a high school now named for a Confederate general and honorary Ku Klux Klan leader that some historical records say ordered the execution of hundreds of black Union soldiers.

The Duval County School Board said it was following the will of its students Monday when it voted unanimously to change the name of Nathan B. Forrest High in Jacksonville. The change will take place next year once a new name is chosen, said Superintendent Nikolai Vitti.

"What I want is for students at Nathan Bedford Forrest to use this as a civics lesson," Vitti said. He said he hopes students realize that they can make a difference.

Vitti said a majority of students surveyed voiced support for dropping Forrest's name, given his history as a slave trader and some accounts that blame him for issuing an order to execute captured black Union soldiers during the Civil War.

Vitti said he will now conduct a survey to decide the school's new name. The school board is expected to decide the new name early next year.

"Everybody is glad about it," De'jia Boatwright, a 15-year old 10th grader at the school.

About half of the faculty and a majority of alumni surveyed disagreed with the name change, but 64 percent of students at the black-majority high school were in favor of dropping the name. The school board said it based its decision on what the students wanted.

The name of the school has been a source of controversy for decades, with school officials continuously refusing to change it despite numerous protests."



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Quote from: Sgarey123 on December 18, 2013, 01:19:56 AM
What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

First off... wow.  I will start by saying I never really cared one way or the other about the name.  From what I have seen the KKK claim is probably overblown.  Of course there is no denying the slave owner/buyer/seller aspect of NBF's past.  Renaming the school Firestone will hurt no one and the NBF name will be forgotten by students in 2 or 3 years.

But sgarey... you did just show your true colors.  Any sympathy you may have garnered for your cause evaporated with your last post.  I am sure the students, faculty, and parents are glad this is over and we can all move on.  Well... most of us will...

^Only if she has the hots for a black Ken.

(http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/6/6/2/6/2/ar122373849426266.jpg)

In the book Hooded Americanism: A History of the Klan, the author states that Nathan Bedford Forrest was the Imperial Wizard and even tried to disband the Klan in 1869.

In the book the Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest, the author states that Forrest told a friend afterwards that he " lied like a gentleman" in front of the congressional committee in 1871.

As for being humane in his treatment of his slaves. In Jack Hurst's Biography on Forrest he states that Forrest and his brother John whipped a slave woman with a whip dipped in salt water. Another slave was whipped to death. In Jack Hursts book he also goes on to say that whippings were quite common in the slave yard and that is was considered more humane and kind in the long run to make a horrific example of a slave that broke the rules so as to keep the other slaves in line. As for keeping families together. Slaves would be lined up by gender and then height so to make it less uncomfortable for the buyer. The thinking is that the buyer wouldn't be guilted into buying a whole family.

Forrest was a slave trader and for the most part did take care of his stock. Just like any shop owner doesn't want to sell you broken or damaged goods neither did slave owners. That's why when an example had to be made,  it was made horrifically, so as to scare the other slaves into submission. It was better to damage one slave beyond selling in hopes that the other slaves would mind the rules and avoid the whip. (http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4f/cb/ed/4fcbed37b1faa69cc1eca321f1f7763c.jpg)


http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=2bLU20MbUl4C&oi=fnd&pg=PR11&dq=nathan+bedford+forrest+klan+membership&ots=tjG9EpoP_B&sig=W4f5wN4RdbjUY9zITPuSdRrxQU0#v=onepage&q=nathan%20bedford%20forrest%20klan%20membership&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=tY0p3gZhMTkC&pg=PA61&dq=forrest+lied+like+a+gentleman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z82xUrLWAYS7kQeV-oD4Cg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=forrest%20lied%20like%20a%20gentleman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=1LIvYI_ER5kC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=forrest+whipped+a+slave+with+salted+leather&source=bl&ots=OtPI6fI6QM&sig=fq-OGHGV_gyHpN21CPDPyBSP7j4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=486xUo_jAdDlkAfkv4CIDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=forrest%20whipped%20a%20slave%20with%20salted%20leather&f=false

Awesome first post aurjay... Welcome to the Forum!  8)

In a somewhat related topic:
Southern Discomfort: U.S. Army seeks removal of Lee, 'Stonewall' Jackson honors

QuoteRevisionist history would remove portraits of Confederate legends

Quote
"I do know at least one person has questioned why we would honor individuals who were enemies of the United States Army"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/17/robert-e-lee-and-stonewall-jackson-tributes-face-a/?page=1

Interesting quote from Superintendent Vitti on the original naming:

Quote
If you look at the history of the naming of Nathan B. Forrest High School, the students originally wanted the school to be named Valhalla. Politics reigned and as a response to desegregation and the civil rights movement, the school was named Nathan B. Forrest. That was not the will of the students, and considering the opinion of the students in this process, I think it is an opportunity to give voice to students whose voices were not heard in the beginning and can certainly be heard now.

Clearly it's becoming better recognized that the Forrest name was originally chosen as a swipe at the Civil Rights Movement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/16/school-named-after-kkk-grand-wizard-to-be-renamed-finally/

That's all the renaming of Valhalla High School was about.

Yeah so now I am hearing rumor that the Student surveys were in favor of keeping name. So was the alumni survey and teacher survey.

The "nelwy" elected board and newly hired Vitti did this without a mandate.

I figured Dare would have dolls. I didn't think they would be nazi dolls. He probably preaches to them in German and burns books in his back yard.

Slavery is a topic everyone avoids. The fact he owned and traded slaves is not a reason to change the school name. He freed his slaves before proclamation. Everyone had slaves.  The only difference I see in Forrest and others is that Forrest was not an aristocrat. He earned his money.

I never came here to gain sympathy from any of you. I came to represent a frightened silent majority. I represent people who have been here for generations. I represent local historically aware people that give this town an identity more than another walmart does.

After renaming these people are even more scared now. They are seeing regional heroes come under attack in multiple places and different levels of government. This does not bode well for the future. Its down right scary.

Vitti and the board rushed this decision through without funding. It would seem they are bought and paid for stooges.  That this change was supposed to be wiped away from the passing schools announcement is fairly certain as well.  The proponents for change not even showing up at the community meeting reeks too.

Things are rotten in Jacksonville. The will of the people has been ignored. You guys are all happy about that? What is wrong with you?

Find the sources on the surveys and post them. I know the daily record one was off the chart. 84%?  Vitti did this as a resume builder. Pure and simple.

The only good thing about this is that a whole slew of folks are more aware that NBF was not in the KKK and certainly not the founder. News stations across the land stopped posting that lie. That is something.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on December 18, 2013, 01:19:56 AM
What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on December 20, 2013, 12:22:22 AM
Yeah so now I am hearing rumor that the Student surveys were in favor of keeping name. So was the alumni survey and teacher survey.

Don't rely on the rumors when actual facts are readily available.

Quote

Before the board voted, Superintendent Nikolai Vitti detailed the results of surveys the district recently collected from various groups, including students, staff, people who live in the school's boundaries, alumni, PTA and the School Advisory Council.

Of the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Here's Forrest's PTA and School Advisory Council:

Quote
School Advisory Council: 65 percent wanted to change it; 36 percent wanted to keep it

PTA: 75 percent of them wanted to change it; 25 percent wanted to keep it

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-12-16/story/duval-school-board-approves-changing-forrest-highs-name#ixzz2o1ZLJ2lD

In other words,  a strong majority of the 1035 students polled wanted the name changed, as did the parents and School Advisory Council. Polled Alums and unaffiliated neighborhood residents by and large wanted the name kept. Faculty were split. However, the poll was done when everyone thought the change would have to be payed for out of the budget. Instead, it's coming out of the district's general fund so the cost will be spread out across the county (which is fair). Since then, more faculty have been more supportive.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on December 20, 2013, 12:22:22 AM

Find the sources on the surveys and post them. I know the daily record one was off the chart. 84%?  Vitti did this as a resume builder. Pure and simple.

This poll is by far the best that has been taken. I can't find them online,  but my understanding is that polls of the city as a whole have always favored changing the name and the numbers have increased over the years.

A majority of students and the School Advisory Council wanted the name changed six years ago, and the School Board shot it down. As Vitti noted, students back in 1958 didn't pick the name to begin with; they were already calling it Valhalla, and others wanted it named Wesconnett, but the school board named it for Forrest.

QuoteOf the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Well lets just say that "student elections" are always corrupt.  The whole thing is bullsh!t.  Frankly the name has not changed until they get the money.

I think the money should be paid by Vitti and board. They are the only ones that want this outside of a special group in Jacksonville (or maybe the President and Mayor). This group better stop at Forrest.

The greater picture here is what is at stake. The funniest thing is that this "renaming" purpose is to defame slavery when all it is doing is moving us towards it.

Quote from: Sgarey123 on December 20, 2013, 11:32:02 PM

QuoteOf the 1,035 students who voted, 64 percent wanted the name change, compared to 36 percent who did not, Vitti said. Alumni had the second largest group of votes: 94 percent of the 339 votes were to keep the Forrest name. Seventy-five percent of the 93 nearby residents voted to keep the name.

Vitti said the surveys showed that most of those who wanted to keep the name indicated they wanted to maintain historic references and community traditions.

Among the 111 faculty votes, 52 percent voted to retain the school's name, Vitti said, but after they learned that the cost to change the name wasn't coming out of the school budget, many changed their minds and favored a name change, Vitti said. The district plans to use its own funds or donated funds to pay for the estimated $400,000 to change the uniforms, signs, marquis and gym floor, he said.

Well lets just say that "student elections" are always corrupt.  The whole thing is bullsh!t.  Frankly the name has not changed until they get the money.

I think the money should be paid by Vitti and board. They are the only ones that want this outside of a special group in Jacksonville (or maybe the President and Mayor). This group better stop at Forrest.

The greater picture here is what is at stake. The funniest thing is that this "renaming" purpose is to defame slavery when all it is doing is moving us towards it.

LOL, you're the one who asked for the polls, and now they're "corrupt"? It's easy to dismiss facts when they say something you don't want to hear.

What's particularly entertaining is that if people like Sgarey123 and members of the Sons of the Confederacy are to be believed, then the Civil War was indeed a second revolutionary war and the Union was nothing but a big bad aggressor bent on forcing their standards on a new and sovereign nation. That of course makes the Confederacy nothing but a conquered nation.  It was and is only the firm belief in free speech, something the Confederacy apparently questioned, that allows anything about this conquered nation even to be talked about. And allows people like Sgarey123 to twist the facts of history into something that support's their particular cause.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was an ex-slave trader and a defeated general from a conquered nation.  It is only by the good graces of the Union conquers that his name can even be mentioned.  Do you believe for one second that if the British had defeated us in the first Revolutionary War that anything would have ever been named after George Washington?

One huge positive that comes from the internet world we live in is the information available at the touch of a button or two from both sides of an argument like this.  The truth can no longer hide in the hand written word, it is out there to be found.  And it is most often not what either side wants to hear.

Students want the school to be renamed Westside High...

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-01-06/story/students-want-jacksonvilles-forrest-high-be-called-westside-high

Good. I'm about ready to have this behind us.

Does anyone remember the Westside Posse or Westside Mafia?  They were based out of the English Estates neighborhood which I think is Forrest territory.  They were first called English Estates Posse and were involved with the shootings and throwing concrete blocks on I-295.  So we are removing the name of a Confederate General and naming the school after a gang?  That's an improvement?  The best you could come up with?  Here, keep tradition of the Confederate General and the education level:  Lost Cause High.

Forrest being a community dividing white supremacist is a pretty clear fact. Yet, it's a stretch to equate the name the students want to a neighborhood gang that was around 20 years ago. I mean, how long have natives been calling the Westside....Westside? A century?

I don't like that name 'Westside' at all. IMO the Firestone name was only slightly better; I guess that first thought of Firestone Tires kinda did that name in. It seems to me that High School has changed from a controversial Confederate name, to a weird very vague, and boring one, which is damn near a lateral move IMO. If that's 'Westside High', then what in the hell does that make Ed White? They removed a controversial figure from Jax history, I guess it's a 'success story' whatever...

He's not from "Jax history", he had nothing to do with the city.

^^^I understand that's a hot button topic on here that's been run through with a fine-toothed comb. I was referring to the years that Forrest High has been in Jax since 1959; Not the personal accounts of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

It's a success simply for the city not being a national laughing stock of backwardness. There's an economic benefit to working to improve a community's overall image to the outside world.

^^^Blah blah blah, stirring up confusion is your classic shtick... Misconstruing phrases by highlighting them, followed by your vintage passion-filled babble. Stay consistent my friend....

I think Westside High School is a pretty dull name.  It's a shame they couldn't come up with something better.  That being said it doesn't affect me at all and I'll never have kids going to that school since I don't live on that side of town and have no desire to move there.  If they want to have a dull name for their school, so be it. 

Quote from: carpnter on January 08, 2014, 09:20:08 AM
I think Westside High School is a pretty dull name.  It's a shame they couldn't come up with something better.

Bingo! That's exactly what I was getting at. You mean to tell me that Forrest never had a notable principal? Too bad the name choices sucked from the beginning.  I'm not against a democratic progress, but many HS kids would be cool with naming a school "Swag Valley High" or "Flying Spaghetti Monster High".

Scott Speicher High please.

Skynyrd High would have got us back in the news... 8)

^^^Man, you're desperate for attention....

^^^Yup, whatever....They changed a controversial HS name to a very stupid one just like I said. I been upfront about that ever since I've known the name...Keep on insisting to bring up the old racial crap that I don't even care about....Pull up something from the Huffington Post Stephen, than maybe you'll calm down and relax...

^^^Is that you forte, pulling up stuff from the archives, on some grudging BS?

Quote from: CityLife on January 08, 2014, 09:43:03 AM
Scott Speicher High please.

I also would have preferred Scott Speicher High, but there's now a policy against naming things after people now (so we don't do something like name a school after a Tennessee slave trader for no reason.) But a boring name is better than one with a terrible name that gets brought up in the national press repeatedly.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 08, 2014, 10:57:34 AM
there's now a policy against naming things after people now (so we don't do something like name a school after a Tennessee slave trader for no reason.)

When was that done? I haven't heard of that (I'm not saying that I don't believe you).

^^^I never said that I knew everything about this thread. Have you had your fulfillment of immaturely bringing up old crap, or are you gonna continue to page 38?

The policy was changed in 1997 and revised in 2008:

Quote

Action News requested the latest policy Duval County has in place for naming or renaming schools, which was implemented in 1997. It was revised in 2008. It states "the name of a school shall not be of a person living or dead." The policy also states that if a request has been made to rename a school, input from the community must be solicited.

http://www.fox30jax.com/content/topstories/story/Fight-over-renaming-Forrest-High-sparks-heated/f6P7Rpa0XE6I8ofkgcnuIQ.cspx

^^^Thanks Taca.

It's behind a paywall but the students have voted to change Westside (Forrest) High's nickname to the Wolverines. Rebels are no more.....

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-01-22/story/westside-forrest-high-changes-its-nickname-wolverines

Today's students celebrate new name, logo for Westside High in Jacksonville

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-08-08/story/todays-students-celebrate-new-name-logo-westside-high#ixzz39thdnx6G

Meh, Wolverines is so overused today.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 22, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
It's behind a paywall but the students have voted to change Westside (Forrest) High's nickname to the Wolverines. Rebels are no more.....

Politically correct bull shit highly likely to make these students much smarter...

Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2014, 11:03:28 AM
that would be a shame since the previous name actually did have that magical power.

BINGO STEPHEN! It had no power at all, and neither does the new name... thus this whole process is politically correct, meaningless bullshit. Wolverines IMO is a stupid name in any case, at least bison, crocodiles, saber tooth tigers,  were once native to Florida... Why not something original (and perhaps fitting in the current educational environment) 'The Amoeba's.'

Sweet, we're rehashing.

(http://i.imgur.com/0y9vjx4.jpg)

I'm proud of this suggestion to rename Fletcher but no one seems to take it seriously.

It's a wonder but I don't think a single school is named after elijah muhammad. You would think school districts would see the inherent meaninglessness of the name. So what that he probably killed Malcolm X. Who cares that he didn't seem to be the greatest fan of of certain races of people? It's still American history...political correctness is destroying America.




(http://i.imgur.com/Otnihh6.jpg)


I'm still trying to figure out if the Washington Redskins will be changing their name.

Hmm....so no one in 2014 died over this name change? Forrest is still the same guy that was born and died in Tennessee 137 years ago? Time to move on.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2014, 01:33:22 PM
Hmm....so no one in 2014 died over this name change? Forrest is still the same guy that was born and died in Tennessee 137 years ago? Time to move on.

yup

I, for one, am less embarrassed to call Jax home -- (I said "less" here).

surely you cats have donated to the name change

QuoteShe also has tried to get her classmates to donate to a fund to help Duval Schools offset the cost of the name change, which has been estimated at $242,000. So far, local donations are $2,857 cash and in-kind donations of school signs.

Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2014, 02:22:01 PM
surely you cats have donated to the name change

QuoteShe also has tried to get her classmates to donate to a fund to help Duval Schools offset the cost of the name change, which has been estimated at $242,000. So far, local donations are $2,857 cash and in-kind donations of school signs.

Yep, as a Duval County property owner, I paid my school board tax.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 09, 2014, 02:32:09 PM

Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2014, 02:22:01 PM
surely you cats have donated to the name change

QuoteShe also has tried to get her classmates to donate to a fund to help Duval Schools offset the cost of the name change, which has been estimated at $242,000. So far, local donations are $2,857 cash and in-kind donations of school signs.

Yep, as a Duval County property owner, I paid my school board tax.

Typical

It boggles my mind that so many seemingly smart people dont understand why this name change is a good thing. No, it doesnt solve educational issues, per say (thats a straw man argument, anyway), and while Im sure the cost of the name change is a legit concern, a good percentage of that would be eaten up by normal reordering processes anyway.

No, we don't need to wipe Forrest from the annals of history, but there was never a good reason for a school in Jax to bare his name to begin with. Forrest, like it or not, is a controversial historic figure. Not just through a modern lens, but at that time as well. Remember, he had to testify before congress about his KKK activities during his life, and fort pillow happened, no matter what the apologists say about it.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/remember-fort-pillow/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Forrest was controversial then, and he is certainly controversial now.

No matter how you slice it, Jax is a slightly better city because it has one less silly, needless, divisive issue to squabble over.